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Unpaid Fare notice - but valid ticket!!

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Flamingo

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A few weeks ago dealing with an advanced ticket on the wrong train:
"Well somebody should have checked the reservation before I got on"
"Yes sir, that somebody would be you"
 
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scotsman

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This 'bloke on the platform'? He's not a friend of Inspector Sands is he?:lol:
 

Solent&Wessex

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This 'bloke on the platform'? He's not a friend of Inspector Sands is he?:lol:

I don't know, but he works at York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Picc, Oxford Road and every other station I've been through - often managing to be in different places at the same time.
 

yorkie

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I'm amazed how many times I hear 'the bloke on the station said I could use this Advance on any train'. I have a standard answer now - 'well, there was no need to ask in the first place really - it says "booked train only" on the ticket'.
Yes, the only good thing in terms of 'simplification' ATOC did was the Advance simplification (May 2008). Where restrictions such as this are expected to be enforced, they must be stated clearly, and in this case they are, which is good. No-one can really make such a claim and you can easily prove such a claim wrong. If XC/ATOC wish for a Not XC restriction on GroupSave for example, then a "Not XC" restriction on the ticket would do exactly the same trick!

Simple, clear, instructions like this are enforceable and it amazes me that anyone would make such a claim, but it is easy for you to refute such a claim. This needs to be the case for all restrictions that any TOC wishes to enforce.
Why do I get the feeling that the OP was just unlucky to be travelling on that particular service, if you get my drift?
Regular users of East Coast who are railway staff have informed me of the antics of a sizeable minority of their Senior Conductors against fellow staff, let alone regular passengers! I will say no more here, but given what I know, I am not at all surprised at the OP's experience on East Coast. That said, most East Coast Senior Conductors are absolutely fine, it's a minority that are not, but a significant one. They are well known.
 

moonrakerz

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If the OP genuinely lost the ticket and could prove by means of the email receipt, I think some discretion should be shown.

IF, IF, IF............ as I said earlier, "the dog ate my reservation".

The guards will have heard every excuse under the sun - a thousand times over - just like teachers ! There was a post on here very recently from a guard, who did show some discretion - a few days later he came across the same passenger with the same sob story !! Once bitten.............

If the guard showed "discretion", sorry, but he isn't doing his job ! It is no good blaming the guard - he didn't lose the reservation ticket
 

jon0844

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But the IF is whether the iPhone proved the information WAS correct.

We don't know this bit.
 
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Remember from my time on the buses catching a lad with the same sob story 3 days a row on the same shift... same route, same place, same driver and he still didn't figure out why I wouldn't believe him...
 

yorkie

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IF, IF, IF............ as I said earlier, "the dog ate my reservation".
MissMiaow said:
I was able to show him the booking reference on my Iphone which showed I was on the correct train.
In this case, I don't see why there should be a problem. Good guards on here have indicated that in the circumstances described they'd accept it. Of course if no evidence was provided that the customer was on the correct train a new ticket should be sold, and no-one is arguing otherwise.
 

Flamingo

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I don't know, but he works at York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Picc, Oxford Road and every other station I've been through - often managing to be in different places at the same time.
Well, whenever I find him, he's getting a bloody good kicking <D
 

theblackwatch

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When I see a child ticket, I generally ask:

"You're under 18, aren't you?"

"Yeah."

"Okay, how old?"

(usual response is then) "17"

"Thank you, step this way, please..." ^.^

That's a very similar approach to a friend of mine who was a guard on routes where a lot of tickets were sold on board. When asked for a child ticket by someone most likely not entitled to it, he would ask "Are you 17?". The response would invariably be "No I'm 16" to which he would reply "That's full fare then!" :lol:
 

Flamingo

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I suspect his whole existence is to add credence to the fact that someone has been caught out trying to bluff and advance etc. Just the other day I had a passenger travelling 3 hours late from Stansted. I went through the usual questions and ascertained that her flight wasn't 3 hours late, and there was no actual genuine prospect of the passenger catching their booked train. I was left with the answer 'I had to get that one as the other trains didn't have any advance tickets on'
One of my colleagues has just been advised by his manager to allow passengers coming from flights on advanced tickets to be allowed travel on any train as charging them is a "potential source of conflict and bad publicity".
 

yorkie

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mumrar / Flamingo - that's good to see :) I think it's good that if the passenger had been delayed by a flight their ticket would be honoured, but absolutely right to charge them when they are booking a train that they have no way of catching. If they initially claimed their flight was 3 hours late then they have lied and are lucky that the matter wasn't taken further. I fully support guards who show discretion in such circumstances as delayed planes, and it's quite wrong for a passenger to lie about such a delay so well done in finding them out!
 

sheff1

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TPE Airport Advance tickets allow you to travel up to 3 hours later if your plane is delayed into Manchester Airport.

There is however a conflict in the T&C. The TPE site advises that you need to get your ticket endorsed, but only if it is a 'print at home' one. National Rail suggests you need written confirmation from the airline in all cases. The latter seems a bit impractical as I can't image some airlines, Ryanair for example, being particularly willing to do this.

A colleague was delayed by 2 hours last week and got his ticket (not a print at home) endorsed at the station - he said this seemed to be a common thing. I assume the booking office can easily check the lateness of planes - certainly the airliine departure screens are prominent.
 

yorkie

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TPE Airport Advance tickets allow you to travel up to 3 hours later if your plane is delayed into Manchester Airport.
Only 3 hours? I'd expect that on any Advance if the delay was genuine.
There is however a conflict in the T&C. The TPE site seems to suggest that you only need to get your ticket endorsed if it is a 'print at home' one. National Rail suggests you need written confirmation from the airline in all cases. The latter seems a bit impractical as I can't image Ryanair, for example, being particularly willing to do this.
Blimey, that's not really much use. Unless the price was the same I'd not pay extra and, I'd get a 'normal' Advance and bank on either station staff or the guard being capable of being a normal human being (on TPE, the chances of this are very high I am pleased to say! :))

Unfortunately last time I advised some people on getting a train to connect with a plane, I didn't realise that if their (walk-on) ticket was bought 2 hours earlier the exact same train counted as "off peak" and they'd have saved money.:roll: I will recommend people getting the overnight trains to buy before midnight now.

I get the impression TPE would rather people got a lift to the airport than inconvenience them with their custom :|
 

sheff1

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Other regular situations are the "I haven't been able to collect the ticket" scenraio. Now, if this as a fault of a TOC then provided Control will authorise it then using the reference number is fine, but we have always been advised that the ticket is not actually paid for until the ticket is collected. Whether this is correct or not, I don't know.

This is definitely not correct. I often book tickets up to 3 months in advance but do not collect them until a day before travel. The cost has already appeared on my bank statement well before I collect the tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Blimey, that's not really much use. Unless the price was the same I'd not pay extra and, I'd get a 'normal' Advance and bank on either station staff or the guard being capable of being a normal human being (on TPE, the chances of this are very high I am pleased to say! :))

As far as I can see, there is no 'normal' TPE advance from the airport. The 3 hour leeway is shown as an 'easement' (as against the non-airport tickets) on their website.

I wonder if the real intention is that up to 3 hours you don't need an endorsement but more than that you do.
 

yorkie

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As far as I can see, there is no 'normal' TPE advance from the airport. The 3 hour leeway is shown as an 'easement' (as against the non-airport tickets) on their website.

Ah, I see. I thought it was a different product called Airport Advance.

I wonder if the real intention is that up to 3 hours you don't need an endorsement but more than that you do.
And yes, that would make a lot more sense!
 

Solent&Wessex

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All TPE Advance fares to and from MIA are known as Airport Advance. There is a 3 hour relaxation on journeys FROM MIA provided that your plane has been delayed and your Advance ticket is endorsed at the ticket office prior to boarding the train. This requirement to endorse applies to ALL advance tickets, be they conventional or print at home. The station staff can verify that planes are late - on board staff cannot. If the next train is not within 3 hours, you will be allowed to travel on the next available service, whenever that may be.
 

moonrakerz

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In this case, I don't see why there should be a problem. Good guards on here have indicated that in the circumstances described they'd accept it. Of course if no evidence was provided that the customer was on the correct train a new ticket should be sold, and no-one is arguing otherwise.

The problem is that it is very simple to generate an iPhone message that appears to be "good" - given 30 minutes I could post a letter on this site purporting to be from David Cameron congratulating me for having swum the Atlantic in a faster time that the QE2 could do it.

As I have said before on the this particular thread the Ts & Cs, which the customer agreed to when buying the discounted ticket, say the reservation must be carried otherwise the whole ticket is not valid.
If I had been in this position I too would have been p****d off, but it would have been my own fault, no one else's.

It does strike me as a little strange that so many people are "criticising" a railway employee for actually doing his job. If other guards are described as "good" - I can only assume this man was "bad" - poor fellow !

PS: Thanks for the earlier PM !
 

cuccir

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Interestingly when I was travelling on a Deutsche Bahn advance ticket Basel-Freiburg a few weeks ago, the ticket explicitly stated that having the booking on a laptop or smartphone was not adequate evidence: you needed the physical ticket. Perhaps a clarification along these lines when booking advance tickets would be helpful and would resolve guards from being in the slightly awkward situation of having to make the judgement themselves?
 

Greenback

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I like the sound of that idea myself, but I wonder that would fit in with the drive towards paperless tickets ie tickets by phone?
 
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jon0844

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The problem is that it is very simple to generate an iPhone message that appears to be "good" - given 30 minutes I could post a letter on this site purporting to be from David Cameron congratulating me for having swum the Atlantic in a faster time that the QE2 could do it.

Yes, that is true. However, my 'solution' would stop that being an issue. Passenger is made to buy a new ticket and then claim back later, providing proof that can be verified.

As I have said before on the this particular thread the Ts & Cs, which the customer agreed to when buying the discounted ticket, say the reservation must be carried otherwise the whole ticket is not valid.
If I had been in this position I too would have been p****d off, but it would have been my own fault, no one else's.

Yes, but I do see where there can be a solution that can help the passenger who has simply lost a ticket accidentally. At the moment, that solution doesn't exist which is why the rules have to be followed - but can't we all work to try and change them?

It does strike me as a little strange that so many people are "criticising" a railway employee for actually doing his job. If other guards are described as "good" - I can only assume this man was "bad" - poor fellow !

Well, I haven't slated the employee but I have suggested something that would enable the TM to do his job, punish anyone trying it on AND cut some slack for those who are genuine. Best of all, it doesn't require the TM to have to do all the checking - and an admin fee means the railway can process claims without being out of pocket.

Interestingly when I was travelling on a Deutsche Bahn advance ticket Basel-Freiburg a few weeks ago, the ticket explicitly stated that having the booking on a laptop or smartphone was not adequate evidence: you needed the physical ticket. Perhaps a clarification along these lines when booking advance tickets would be helpful and would resolve guards from being in the slightly awkward situation of having to make the judgement themselves?

I think it's fair to say that you do need the ticket, but if you've genuinely lost it then you might hope to be given the benefit of the doubt. However, given the amount of potential for abuse, the best solution is to charge for a new ticket BUT let someone make a claim afterwards. The industry does offer things as goodwill gestures, but my suggestion would make it an official process. Along with the need to claim, and pay a fee, it's not exactly likely that people will happily go without their ticket or suddenly not see the need to look after it.

As an example, my wife lost her (Groupsave) Travelcard between boarding the train and getting off (she'd got through the gateline at King's Cross with it) and she was allowed through as the RPI accepted it was most likely that she did have a ticket given the others with us had one. She could quite legitimately have been given a PF, and she would have happily paid as it was her mistake.
 

Sapphire Blue

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I have a season ticket for a football team. If I turn up on match day without the ticket, by going to the ticket office I can, by producing identity and paying the full admission fee for that game, gain entry to the match. Within the next 14 days I can get a full refund of that fee by returning to the ticket office with my season ticket and the ticket issued on the day.

This allows for the human error of turning up without part of a ticket, which some on here appear to feel is some sort of crime to be financially punished for when doing exactly that on a train.

It should not be beyond the wit of all the clever railway folk, to put this in the much debated "terms and conditions".
Anyone trying it on would have to pay the full walk-up journey fare. Genuine mistakes would not be punished.
Nobody loses.
(And before I get the "the TOCs are in it to make money", so is the football club)
 

jon0844

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I left my train season ticket at home once, and purchased a one-day Travelcard. I got to claim the price of the ticket back afterwards.
 

Greenback

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I have a season ticket for a football team. If I turn up on match day without the ticket, by going to the ticket office I can, by producing identity and paying the full admission fee for that game, gain entry to the match. Within the next 14 days I can get a full refund of that fee by returning to the ticket office with my season ticket and the ticket issued on the day.

This allows for the human error of turning up without part of a ticket, which some on here appear to feel is some sort of crime to be financially punished for when doing exactly that on a train.

It should not be beyond the wit of all the clever railway folk, to put this in the much debated "terms and conditions".
Anyone trying it on would have to pay the full walk-up journey fare. Genuine mistakes would not be punished.
Nobody loses.
(And before I get the "the TOCs are in it to make money", so is the football club)

If you had lost your ticket, or part of a ticket, for the football, would you expect to be let in on the strength of the fact that you bought the ticket online and had a cofnirmation email?

Season tickets are different to other tickets, holders are allowed one free genuine mistake, and one with an admin charge!

Perhaps a better analogy would be a hotel booking. If you don't have the reference number AND the credit card you used for payment, should the reception desk charge you the full rack rate and let you claim a refund later if you can produce the missing documentation? ;)
 

Sapphire Blue

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Perhaps a better analogy would be a hotel booking. If you don't have the reference number AND the credit card you used for payment, should the reception desk charge you the full rack rate and let you claim a refund later if you can produce the missing documentation? ;)


Yes.

If it were my hotel anyway.

Some people have a true idea about customer satisfaction and some don't run a business.
 

Greenback

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I thought that was interesting example, as I usually just give my name and don't need any booking reference or payment card. However, I'm sure that there must be something in the small print of the T's and C's that says I should.

Most probably the one time I lose or forget the email confirmation/booking ref will be when they decide to invoke the full rules just like the TOC's!
 

Sapphire Blue

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I thought that was interesting example, as I usually just give my name and don't need any booking reference or payment card. However, I'm sure that there must be something in the small print of the T's and C's that says I should.

Most probably the one time I lose or forget the email confirmation/booking ref will be when they decide to invoke the full rules just like the TOC's!

And that may be the last time they see you too.
 

Greenback

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It probably would, if they had never asked for these things previously! I think consistency is the key, as well as making things very clear in the first place.
 

Flamingo

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mumrar / Flamingo - that's good to see :) I think it's good that if the passenger had been delayed by a flight their ticket would be honoured, but absolutely right to charge them when they are booking a train that they have no way of catching. If they initially claimed their flight was 3 hours late then they have lied and are lucky that the matter wasn't taken further. I fully support guards who show discretion in such circumstances as delayed planes, and it's quite wrong for a passenger to lie about such a delay so well done in finding them out!
I didn't say I agreed with it. IMHO if somebody is travelling on a flight (or doing anything else that means they may not catch their booked train), then they should buy a flexible ticket. It's part of the cost of the holiday / business trip. If an easement is allowed for in the T&C fine, if not, suck it in and pay the fare. That's the gamble when paying £4 for a 2 1/2 hr journey that would cost £61 if buying a full open single (and that's a real example).

If they miss the booked train, then take it up with the airline or travel insurance company. I can't see Ryanair being too flexible when I turn up at Stanstead saying I'm 4 hours late, it's not my fault there was a fatality on the line at Liverpool Street, I want a seat on the next flight to Athens anyway. (and I say Ryanair on purpose, as the advanced tickets are the Ryanair model adapted to train travel).
 
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