Once HS2 phase 2b has opened, should dedicated double decker stock be built?

[Bletchleyite]

This is nothing like the conventional WCML intercity traffic and we shouldn't consider it as such.

Au contraire. It is exactly the conventional WCML IC traffic just moved onto a pair of "super-fast" tracks which like the Northampton Loop happen to be away from the main line. It is not a paradigm shift, it's a speeding-up (not a ground-breaking one, but a useful one like PUG1 was) and capacity increase (line and seating).

 

[HSTEd]

Au contraire. It is exactly the conventional WCML IC traffic just moved onto a pair of "super-fast" tracks which like the Northampton Loop happen to be away from the main line. It is not a paradigm shift, it's a speeding-up (not a ground-breaking one, but a useful one like PUG1 was) and capacity increase (line and seating).

I don't think its really tenable to paint a London Euston to Central Birmingham time of 45 minutes as not a paradigm shift.
HS2 claims 82 minutes is the pre HS2 journey time.

Hell OOC puts Crossrail 38 minutes from Central Birmingham.

OOC will only be a few minutes further from Central Birmingham than it is to Abbey Wood, it can't help to cause a major change in the way things are.

EDIT:

I think all these debates about interiors and such really do boil down to "Is this Intercity as it was and merely faster, or have we crossed a line to a paradigm shift to a non intercity railway?"
As an extreme example, if we had some sort of spacefolding portal at Old Oak Common that cut journey time to Birmingham International to zero, we would clearly not have a traditional intercity railway any more.

When does it cease to be an intercity railway?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Birmingham, however, is not the majority of the WCML. The services to Manchester and Scotland are also relevant. It's not worth having a dedicated Birmingham fleet - Virgin Trains already decided that.

 

[Domh245]

Birmingham, however, is not the majority of the WCML. The services to Manchester and Scotland are also relevant. It's not worth having a dedicated Birmingham fleet - Virgin Trains already decided that.

In the context of a full HS2 network however, the furthest any captive train would be going (Leeds - assuming 2b east goes ahead) is 1:21, and Piccadilly 1:11 - that's not to say it's time to cram 'em in 2+3 but those certainly aren't long journey times that force an intercity layout

 

[BayPaul]

Birmingham, however, is not the majority of the WCML. The services to Manchester and Scotland are also relevant. It's not worth having a dedicated Birmingham fleet - Virgin Trains already decided that.

But with Manchester in 1h11 and Leeds in 1h21 those services could also quite reasonably be considered more like outer suburban than Intercity, and like Birmingham have a train type suitable for a journey of about an hour.

I agree that HS2 can and should be revolutionary, not just for rain travel but for the country, making these 4 cities all easy to move between, effectively one big conurbation, after all the journey time from Manchester to Euston will be pretty much the same as Amersham to Euston!

 

[HSTEd]

In the context of a full HS2 network however, the furthest any captive train would be going (Leeds - assuming 2b east goes ahead) is 1:21, and Piccadilly 1:11 - that's not to say it's time to cram 'em in 2+3 but those certainly aren't long journey times that force an intercity layout

And Birmingham-Manchester is 41 minutes!

Basically all the captive journeys are under 90 minutes, and most are not much more than an hour.

 

[BrianW]

But with Manchester in 1h11 and Leeds in 1h21 those services could also quite reasonably be considered more like outer suburban than Intercity, and like Birmingham have a train type suitable for a journey of about an hour.

I agree that HS2 can and should be revolutionary, not just for rain travel but for the country, making these 4 cities all easy to move between, effectively one big conurbation, after all the journey time from Manchester to Euston will be pretty much the same as Amersham to Euston!

That was early 'Powerhouse' thinking, of the kind that gave us Milton Keynes. Revolutionary 'big state' thinking back in the day; paradigm-shifting today.

BBC NEWS | England | 'Super city of north' is unveiled

It must surely be transformative eventually- part of a 'new normal'. Ok maybe people will not be traveling to shop, or they may, who knows.
I remember thoughts of 'the leisure society' and the 'paperless office'. Now its peopleless 'office'; office-less 'city'. Exciting? Or back to the pre-canal turnpike?
Maybe Hull will be resisting ex-London second-homers and trying to fit the fish trains into the timetable- another 'no-brainer'?
One big conurbation- one GB; well one England maybe? Someone at NR must give thoughts to this kind of 'scenario-planning'. It's not mad.
OK Amersham to Amsterdam may be unlikely.
Many people stand for an hour and more to live and work where they do.

 

[quantinghome]

I posted in the OOC thread that double decker trains, properly designed, could have SHORTER dwell times than single deckers. The reason is that you can design them to have twice the flow rate of passengers boarding by using double doors leading to separate entrances to lower and upper decks, but you'll only have (say) 50% more passengers per carriage than a single deck.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I posted in the OOC thread that double decker trains, properly designed, could have SHORTER dwell times than single deckers.

Than classic end-doored 26.4m UIC coaches, perhaps, but you could speed dwells yet further by having suburban door layouts.

 

[quantinghome]

Than classic end-doored 26.4m UIC coaches, perhaps, but you could speed dwells yet further by having suburban door layouts.

As you said on another thread - "I hardly think a premium high speed service is befitting of a train like a Class 700".

 

[Bletchleyite]

As you said on another thread - "I hardly think a premium high speed service is befitting of a train like a Class 700".

Indeed, though I care more about the seating layout than the door positions in and of themselves. I don't think it's befitting of a high-density double decker either. Something like the TGV Duplex would do, but with the dwell problems highlighted, and due to the need to provide more floor-level luggage space I reckon you'd do well to get 130% capacity unless you did what most European double deckers did to hide this - namely packed the seats in tighter. Using the Swiss IC2000 sets as an example the seats are much narrower and closer together than the single-deck EW IV coaches that otherwise run IC services.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Using the Swiss IC2000 sets as an example the seats are much narrower and closer together than the single-deck EW IV coaches that otherwise run IC services.

Used both a number of times and they’re not much narrower at all, and I actually vastly prefer the IC2000s. The single deck carriages are falling apart and have seats reminiscent of the steam train era.