Will HS2 be unfit for purpose and should Euston be a through station?

[Bletchleyite]

Oh really? Please look at a map. HS2 did proclaim it "will be fully integrated into the network" forgetting that their original plan published in 2010 said "HS2 will be a largely segregated railway". Numerous communities will get worse services with HS2 than without it. Remember the £11bn they plan to save by CUTTING services?

There are only 4 stations I can think of that will receive substantially worse services under HS2 than they currently have. They are:

• Stockport (but remember most users are using it as a park and ride, and they'll just use Manchester Interchange instead)
• Coventry (probably the biggest loser)
• Oxenholme (in the middle of a field and only really there for connections, and this may well be dealt with by having more Windermere services start back at Lancaster)
• Penrith (a small though very pleasant town that only has London services for reasons of operational convenience)

These relatively minor WCML stations will lose their direct Scotland service but will still have services to London at the same frequency as at present. However journeys will still be possible by changing at Preston:

• Warrington BQ
• Wigan NW

That's it so far as I know.

And it will be integrated into the network. Services will run off it to existing WCML destinations. That's the point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2021 ==

Don't worry there will never be 18tph. And I only propose 12tph max.

There's still not demand to run 12tph of 400m trains from the WCML to the SWML. The vast, vast majority of passengers arriving at Euston are going to London, and mostly won't even leave Zone 1.

I could see a point in extending it to a major underground "London Hauptbahnhof" somewhere nearer the City - however that would be extraordinarily costly, well in excess of the benefit.

The WCML <-> SWML demand is presently met by the Southern service. That's 1tph at 160m. And it mostly tips out at Westfield.

 

[JonathanH]

That's it so far as I know.

Wolverhampton and Stoke-on-Trent as well

 

[6Gman]

HS2 is fit for purpose. To get it built required it get done without all the "nice to haves". It will be a magnificent and much needed piece of infrastructure.

And 20 years after it's opened I predict people will wonder how they ever managed without it!

 

[BayPaul]

• Stockport (but remember most users are using it as a park and ride, and they'll just use Manchester Interchange instead)
• Coventry (probably the biggest loser)
• Oxenholme (in the middle of a field and only really there for connections, and this may well be dealt with by having more Windermere services start back at Lancaster)
• Penrith (a small though very pleasant town that only has London services for reasons of operational convenience)

And of those, Stockport, Oxenholme and Penrith will almost certainly have quicker journey times to London than at present, just with a change, leaving Coventry as the only place with any reason for complaint.

 

[6Gman]

There are only 4 stations I can think of that will receive substantially worse services under HS2 than they currently have. They are:

• Stockport (but remember most users are using it as a park and ride, and they'll just use Manchester Interchange instead)
• Coventry (probably the biggest loser)

And I suspect a fair proportion of the Coventry-London market will find the Birmingham Interchange station equally useful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wolverhampton

Presently has 1tph direct to London via the WCML and still will. Slightly slowed by a Rugby call.

Will have another 3tph on HS2 by changing at Brum.

Given how quiet Wolves terminators on the WCML were until they started running them through to Scotland (one of the many reasons why that service pattern was an absolute masterstroke, probably one of the most sensible things VT ever did), I think this is not much of a loss.

and Stoke-on-Trent as well

Will still have 2tph to London, one on the WCML (slightly slower than now to add RUG, MKC and WFJ calls) and one on HS2 originating from Macclesfield (quite a lot faster). I don't think that's losing.

 

[BayPaul]

Wolverhampton and Stoke-on-Trent as well

Stoke is getting direct services in the latest plan I've seen. I'll give you Wolverhampton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I suspect a fair proportion of the Coventry-London market will find the Birmingham Interchange station equally useful.

Yes, true, a fair number of people probably use the large car park as a P&R from the "east West Midlands" (!) area.

 

[LesF]

It’s all rather tricky round there. No easy answers.


I’d be surprised if more than 0.1% of passengers boarding the Northern Line at Waterloo have arrived by National Rail train and are heading to Euston to depart on a National Rail train.




There’s not demand to run 1 train an hour, let alone 18!

Why the agonising over Euston Road? I only want to go under it and the tube lines around there. Absolutely no demolitions are needed there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why the agonising over Euston Road? I only want to go under it and the tube lines around there. Absolutely no demolitions are needed there.

We are talking about providing a quality walking facility between Euston and St Pancras that isn't through a sink estate or a busy road, those being the two options available at present. OK, I quite happily walk through the sink estate at whatever time of day, but anyone taking me on would be pretty brave given the size of me. My Mum wouldn't walk through there alone.

The reason this is needed is for connections to both Thameslink and Eurostar.

 

[30907]

Strictly speaking, the Paris Bypass is there to serve the 30m+ people who live north of Paris but within approx 3hours (most of whom are not in France) and may want to catch a train to one of Disneyland Paris, CDG airport, or somewhere south of Paris without having to cross Paris by the Metro / RER.

...And even then only carries about 1tph, with the only remotely frequent service being Brussels/Lille-Lyon and beyond.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Strictly speaking, the Paris Bypass is there to serve the 30m+ people who live north of Paris but within approx 3hours (most of whom are not in France) and may want to catch a train to one of Disneyland Paris, CDG airport, or somewhere south of Paris without having to cross Paris by the Metro / RER.

It doesn’t apply in reverse. Not that many people in northern France / Belgium / Netherlands want to get to Birmingham / Manchester.

Also, the thing about France is that Paris is sort of in the middle of the Northern side of things, it's about as if London was where Leicester is. London is in the bottom right hand corner, and the places between it and the coast don't have high tourist or business demand from the North. Not that there's anything wrong with those places, but people from Manchester don't really have much of a cause to go to them, by and large, and those who do can cope with crossing London to get there. There is really not very much demand for Mancs to go sunning themselves in Brighton, for example, nice though Brighton is; they'll go to Ringway and fly to Spain.

 

[JonathanH]

that isn't through a sink estate

That is a bit unreasonable. It always seems quite quiet to me when I go through it (now that the route to the south of the Crick Institute is available. I prefer going that way to going along Phoenix Road now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is a bit unreasonable. It always seems quite quiet to me when I go through it (now that the route to the south of the Crick Institute is available.

It's a bit rough and certainly feels like the sort of place where you want to watch your back. Maybe "sink estate" is a bit strong, but it's not nice. Most people would not be happy walking through there after dark; I was nervous until I'd been through there a few times, and those who have met me would know I'm not the sort of person you'd try jumping unless you had a fairly hefty weapon.

Let's put it this way - your average elderly couple wouldn't be voluntarily going that way.

 

[Hey 3]

HS2 looks rubbish... until someone suggests an alternative and then HS2 actually looks rather good in fact!

Easy to find criticisms of the current scheme (yes, it doesn't serve every single village in the UK) but when you try to come up with something different you realise just how good/simple HS2 actually is.

Where are you going to get the passengers from eighteen 400m long trains to board/alight if you aren't building a proper terminus? Given the end doors, it's not going to be as simple as a London Underground/ Thameslink service (even if you forget that the passengers are going to be split between several destinations north of London, so not all boarding the first service that turns up

Why are we even bringing up the HS1 link now? It was poor value for money pre-Brexit, demand is going to be significantly lower now (and that's assuming that travel generally goes back to pre-Covid levels)

How do you negotiate the various different tunnels underneath London, if you intend to go south/east of Euston? You've probably got at least half a dozen Underground lines to negotiate between Euston and the Thames, at different heights, without worrying about all of the other tunnels/ pipes and things underneath central London

What I personally do is one option is to rebuild Stratford International to accomodate a future tunneled link under Camden to HS2 and design OOC with futureproofing for a HS1-HS2 link
The second option would be to do it straight away(design OOC when it opens with a then already opened connection to HS1)and then open with a rebuilt Stratford Intl

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I personally do is one option is to rebuild Stratford International to accomodate a future tunneled link under Camden to HS2 and design OOC with futureproofing for a HS1-HS2 link
The second option would be to do it straight away(design OOC when it opens with a then already opened connection to HS1)and then open with a rebuilt Stratford Intl

To take people where? Those thousands of people wanting to go from Manchester to Eastbourne and Dover?

If there was any demand for what you're proposing, WCML ICs would already be running via Kensington Olympia. That they aren't tells you all you need to know.

The vast majority of passengers who board an Avanti service to Euston will get off there and get on the Tube to a Zone 1 destination. I bet the number not doing that is below 10%. HS2 won't be any different, other than that a few will get off at Old Oak for Crossrail instead.

 

[Hey 3]

There are only 4 stations I can think of that will receive substantially worse services under HS2 than they currently have. They are:

• Stockport (but remember most users are using it as a park and ride, and they'll just use Manchester Interchange instead)
• Coventry (probably the biggest loser)
• Oxenholme (in the middle of a field and only really there for connections, and this may well be dealt with by having more Windermere services start back at Lancaster)
• Penrith (a small though very pleasant town that only has London services for reasons of operational convenience)

These relatively minor WCML stations will lose their direct Scotland service but will still have services to London at the same frequency as at present. However journeys will still be possible by changing at Preston:

• Warrington BQ
• Wigan NW

That's it so far as I know.

And it will be integrated into the network. Services will run off it to existing WCML destinations. That's the point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2021 ==



There's still not demand to run 12tph of 400m trains from the WCML to the SWML. The vast, vast majority of passengers arriving at Euston are going to London, and mostly won't even leave Zone 1.

I could see a point in extending it to a major underground "London Hauptbahnhof" somewhere nearer the City - however that would be extraordinarily costly, well in excess of the benefit.

The WCML <-> SWML demand is presently met by the Southern service. That's 1tph at 160m. And it mostly tips out at Westfield.

Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Lichfield Trent Valley, other TV stations such as Tamworth will lose out when HS2 opens, Wilmslow, Birmingham line(Rugby-Birmingham-Stafford line) stations such as Sandwell and Dudley and the already mentioned Coventry and Wolverhampton plus Blackpool North, Chester, Holyhead and other North Wales stations served by whatever tpd it is

 

[SynthD]

Depends on who you mean by "they". Anybody against HS2 might say such a thing. Nobody within HS2 or TfL did so.

HS2 could have planning problems without Crossrail 2, says HS2 boss

HS2 CEO Mark Thurston said HS2 chiefs had expected Crossrail 2 to be approved when drawing up plans for the high speed train line.

www.cityam.com

“Without Crossrail 2 there would probably need to be a decision about what we do with the existing Euston station to cope with the full HS2 scheme without Crossrail 2.”

I guess the answer is something big and private, like Canary Wharf getting off their backsides and building the line they suggested, or lots of tiny projects like the link up with Euston Square

 

[Bald Rick]

Why the agonising over Euston Road? I only want to go under it and the tube lines around there. Absolutely no demolitions are needed there.

No demolitions? You’re not having a station there then? Or any escape shafts?

 

[SynthD]

Why the agonising over Euston Road? I only want to go under it and the tube lines around there. Absolutely no demolitions are needed there.

(I’m thinking of the walking tunnel
for passengers of any Euston, Kx or StP services) It’s tricky to ‘just’ go under it. I’m not sure how much room there is between the library vaults and the sub surface lines. It’s repeatedly called an important project that has no obvious solution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Lichfield Trent Valley, other TV stations such as Tamworth will lose out when HS2 opens, Wilmslow, Birmingham line(Rugby-Birmingham-Stafford line) stations such as Sandwell and Dudley and the already mentioned Coventry and Wolverhampton plus Blackpool North, Chester, Holyhead and other North Wales stations served by whatever tpd it is

I don't think you understand the purpose of HS2. All those stations will have either the service they currently have or a substantially upgraded one. Indeed, one of the key points of HS2 is to allow Milton Keynes Central to receive a substantially upgraded local service.

 

[Bald Rick]

What I personally do is one option is to rebuild Stratford International to accomodate a future tunneled link under Camden to HS2 and design OOC with futureproofing for a HS1-HS2 link

Whilst anything is possible within the laws of physics, I contend that rebuilding Stratford International to accommodate a future tunnelled link to Camden is about as close to being impossible as it can be without breaking the laws of physics. The station box at Stratford is incredibly complex (it is below the water table, and requires constant pumping to stop it floating) and there is several billion pounds worth fo real estate all around it. To rebuild Stratford it would almost certainly have to close for a prolonged period, as would the lines that run through it. Not happening!

The second option would be to do it straight away(design OOC when it opens with a then already opened connection to HS1)and then open with a rebuilt Stratford Intl

OOC is already designed, and is actually being built. I don’t think you want to stop HS2 for 5 years + while it is redesigned from scratch and has a new bill put through Parliament?

Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Lichfield Trent Valley, other TV stations such as Tamworth will lose out when HS2 opens,

On the contrary - it is likely they will get a better service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the contrary - it is likely they will get a better service.

Exactly. Indeed one of the key drivers of HS2 Phase 1 is to achieve that.

 

[Hey 3]

Whilst anything is possible within the laws of physics, I contend that rebuilding Stratford International to accommodate a future tunnelled link to Camden is about as close to being impossible as it can be without breaking the laws of physics. The station box at Stratford is incredibly complex (it is below the water table, and requires constant pumping to stop it floating) and there is several billion pounds worth fo real estate all around it. To rebuild Stratford it would almost certainly have to close for a prolonged period, as would the lines that run through it. Not happening!




OOC is already designed, and is actually being built. I don’t think you want to stop HS2 for 5 years + while it is redesigned from scratch and has a new bill put through Parliament?




On the contrary - it is likely they will get a better service.

Yes they will get a better regional/local service but not a better London service(i.e Pendolino style)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2021 ==

Yes they will get a better regional/local service but not a better London service(i.e Pendolino style)

And yes it is complex to rebuild Stratford Intl

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2021 ==

I don't think you understand the purpose of HS2. All those stations will have either the service they currently have or a substantially upgraded one. Indeed, one of the key points of HS2 is to allow Milton Keynes Central to receive a substantially upgraded local service.

I do understand the purpose of HS2. The purpose is to relieve capacity on the WCML,ECML and MML to provide better and more frequent services and also slash journey times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2021 ==

Yes they will get a better regional/local service but not a better London service(i.e Pendolino style)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2021 ==


And yes it is complex to rebuild Stratford Intl

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2021 ==


I do understand the purpose of HS2. The purpose is to relieve capacity on the WCML,ECML and MML to provide better and more frequent services and also slash journey times.

Frequent services as in improved regional and local service into London,B'ham the North and beyond

 

[BrianW]

It's a bit rough and certainly feels like the sort of place where you want to watch your back. Maybe "sink estate" is a bit strong, but it's not nice. Most people would not be happy walking through there after dark; I was nervous until I'd been through there a few times, and those who have met me would know I'm not the sort of person you'd try jumping unless you had a fairly hefty weapon.

Let's put it this way - your average elderly couple wouldn't be voluntarily going that way.

I think there is a good degree of agreement here- ie a walking route other than alongside the heavy traffic of the Euston Road. Short of unlikely comprehensive redevelopment it may well be a matter of 'the best of a bad job'. Of course something on the scale of development north of Kings Cross or Paddington Basin may offer something very different. Trees and air quality vs traffic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do understand the purpose of HS2. The purpose is to relieve capacity on the WCML,ECML and MML to provide better and more frequent services and also slash journey times.

Correct. You'll therefore understand that the likes of MKC, WFJ, RUG, the Trent Valley local stations etc are beneficiaries of HS2, not losers.

It's a bit like the M6 Toll, which even if you never use it appears to have taken just about enough traffic off the "conventional" motorway through Birmingham that it doesn't choke up anything like as much as it used to. Therefore, even those who don't ever use it benefit from it.

 

[BayPaul]

Yes they will get a better regional/local service but not a better London

They will get better London services too, the released paths will allow an awful lot more trains from London to these stations, if anything MK will probably gain more than Birmingham from HS2.

 

[bussikuski179]

I could see a point in extending it to a major underground "London Hauptbahnhof" somewhere nearer the City - however that would be extraordinarily costly, well in excess of the benefit.

I mean... yes that would be convenient, but I think it’s far too late to pull a Berlin and switch from several smaller termini to one massive one, since there’s no place to really put an entrance, and having an entrance to London’s central station be in the style of a tube station would be kinda underwhelming and people would have a hard time finding it.

 

[Recessio]

I'm convinced if they were called things other than "HS1" and "HS2" no one would be in the slightest bit bothered about them not being connected.

I'm inclined to agree. Paris seems to work perfectly well with having lots of seperate stations and highspeed lines.

The only thing is that as someone whose daily commute involves trekking along the Euston Road, they really need to improve the walking link between Euston and KX/SP!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I mean... yes that would be convenient, but I think it’s far too late to pull a Berlin and switch from several smaller termini to one massive one, since there’s no place to really put an entrance, and having an entrance to London’s central station be in the style of a tube station would be kinda underwhelming and people would have a hard time finding it.

There's also that London (like Berlin, FWIW) is very spread out and so most people would still have to use the Tube or a bus for their journey anyway. It's not like most other British cities (even larger ones like Manchester) where it's obvious roughly where you'd want your main station because most journeys would end within walking distance of it.