Will HS2 be unfit for purpose and should Euston be a through station?

[JohnElliott]

Through station to where?

I seem to recall that a Euston-Victoria tunnel was once proposed. And once you've got to Victoria it's only a hop, skip and a jump to Gatwick, or Brighton, or Uckfield, or Crystal Palace High Level, or wherever your crayons take you.

Though even that proposal needed more than two platforms:

There would be a deep-level station at Victoria with four platforms which would need to be “capable of taking the longest Inter-city trains.” A matching four platform, deep level station would be built at Euston and the scheme also included provision for a travelator connection between Euston and Kings Cross.

 

[Ianno87]

I seem to recall that a Euston-Victoria tunnel was once proposed. And once you've got to Victoria it's only a hop, skip and a jump to Gatwick, or Brighton, or Uckfield, or Crystal Palace High Level, or wherever your crayons take you.

Though even that proposal needed more than two platforms:

....none of which can take 400 metre long trains. Or could sensibly be adapted to do so.

 

[BayPaul]

I seem to recall that a Euston-Victoria tunnel was once proposed. And once you've got to Victoria it's only a hop, skip and a jump to Gatwick, or Brighton, or Uckfield, or Crystal Palace High Level, or wherever your crayons take you.

Though even that proposal needed more than two platforms:

I love the idea of that calling pattern - The train now departing Manchester Piccadilly will call at Manchester Airport, Old Oak Common, Euston, Victoria, Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Sanderstead, Riddlesdown, Upper Warlingham, Woldingham, Oxted, Hurst Green, Lingfield, Dormans and East Grinstead. Passengers for ... should travel in the front 8 carriages of this 24 carriage train. Change at...

For the avoidance of doubt, something tells me this would not make a lot of sense

 

[Hey 3]

I love the idea of that calling pattern - The train now departing Manchester Piccadilly will call at Manchester Airport, Old Oak Common, Euston, Victoria, Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Sanderstead, Riddlesdown, Upper Warlingham, Woldingham, Oxted, Hurst Green, Lingfield, Dormans and East Grinstead. Passengers for ... should travel in the front 8 carriages of this 24 carriage train. Change at...

For the avoidance of doubt, something tells me this would not make a lot of sense

By the way, Manchester Airport(HS2) station is to be called Manchester Interchange

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well quite! For that kind of money you could provide pedo-cabs in perpetuity for every passenger!

Maybe a pedicab would be a bit better

 

[Hey 3]

My calling pattern if a HS1-HS2 link was built from say Leeds(as the start point of the journey)
Sheffield Midland, Chesterfield, East Mids Hub, B'ham Interchange,OOC,Stratford Intl, Ebbsfleet Intl, Ashford Intl, Calais, then all the place eurostar calls at towards Amsterdam Centraal
From Manchester Piccadilly
Manchester Interchange,B'ham Interchange then as above

 

[PeterC]

The completely unaffordable and unbuildable Euston Cross?

Which is why the post that you are respondong to started wth "if".

 

[BayPaul]

My calling pattern if a HS1-HS2 link was built from say Leeds(as the start point of the journey)
Sheffield Midland, Chesterfield, East Mids Hub, B'ham Interchange,OOC,Stratford Intl, Ebbsfleet Intl, Ashford Intl, Calais, then all the place eurostar calls at towards Amsterdam Centraal
From Manchester Piccadilly
Manchester Interchange,B'ham Interchange then as above

But that would only allow international passengers to use it (i.e. no Sheffield - Birmingham or Leeds - Ashford journeys) unless we either join Schengen, or they come up with some incredibly complicated work around. It would also require international facilities (passport control & security) at all of those stations.

I would love the UK to join Schengen, and if we did, an HS1-HS2 link would make a lot of sense, as then OOC and Stratford could provide a decent capacity alternative to Euston for the trains using that connection.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My calling pattern if a HS1-HS2 link was built from say Leeds(as the start point of the journey)
Sheffield Midland, Chesterfield, East Mids Hub, B'ham Interchange,OOC,Stratford Intl, Ebbsfleet Intl, Ashford Intl, Calais, then all the place eurostar calls at towards Amsterdam Centraal
From Manchester Piccadilly
Manchester Interchange,B'ham Interchange then as above

The thing is that you could do that at most once or twice a day. An easier interchange to a two-hourly or even hourly service from St Pancras is going to be preferable. It's a bit like the direct Blackpool-Eustons which when I've seen them have been decidedly fresh-air-tastic.

 

[camflyer]

Well quite! For that kind of money you could provide pedo-cabs in perpetuity for every passenger!

Or a monorail!

 

[Hey 3]

But that would only allow international passengers to use it (i.e. no Sheffield - Birmingham or Leeds - Ashford journeys) unless we either join Schengen, or they come up with some incredibly complicated work around.

I know that at the minute people cannot use Eurostar for domestic journeys in the UK
But you can put juxtaposed controls at stations and that way we wont have people bypass border control

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2021 ==

The thing is that you could do that at most once or twice a day. An easier interchange to a two-hourly or even hourly service from St Pancras is going to be preferable. It's a bit like the direct Blackpool-Eustons which when I've seen them have been decidedly fresh-air-tastic.

Yes I would put it as twice a day(increasing to 3 a day on weekends and school holiday plus say Christmas, summer, easter etc

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2021 ==

But that would only allow international passengers to use it (i.e. no Sheffield - Birmingham or Leeds - Ashford journeys) unless we either join Schengen, or they come up with some incredibly complicated work around. It would also require international facilities (passport control & security) at all of those stations.

I would love the UK to join Schengen, and if we did, an HS1-HS2 link would make a lot of sense, as then OOC and Stratford could provide a decent capacity alternative to Euston for the trains using that connection.

I agree with the last statement. I think it would be good to call at Stratford International as it would boost Stratford's expanding economy, help westfield stratford city grow, provide another way to the london stadium and if better linked to Stratford(Regional) station it could be a mega super hub

 

[BayPaul]

I know that at the minute people cannot use Eurostar for domestic journeys in the UK
But you can put juxtaposed controls at stations and that way we wont have people bypass border control

Yes I would put it as twice a day(increasing to 3 a day on weekends and school holiday plus say Christmas, summer, easter etc

I don't think juxtaposed controls work as a solution to this. - happy to be proved wrong if you can describe how it happens.

The problem with running something like this a few times a day is it would need to replace something else that would otherwise be running at a regular clockface timetable - i.e. the service from Leeds to London runs at xx:00, xx:20 and xx:40 every hour, except for 10:00, when the xx:40 is replaced by an xx:30 which runs onto HS1. Compared to a nice regular service to London, and a nice regular service across the channel, I know which I would go for.

 

[Hey 3]

I don't think juxtaposed controls work as a solution to this. - happy to be proved wrong if you can describe how it happens.

The problem with running something like this a few times a day is it would need to replace something else that would otherwise be running at a regular clockface timetable - i.e. the service from Leeds to London runs at xx:00, xx:20 and xx:40 every hour, except for 10:00, when the xx:40 is replaced by an xx:30 which runs onto HS1. Compared to a nice regular service to London, and a nice regular service across the channel, I know which I would go for.

What happens with juxtaposed controls is that the officers check passports before passengers board the train
Then what I would do is check at all stations(when passsengers have got off the train) thus making sure border security cannot be bypassed

 

[BayPaul]

What happens with juxtaposed controls is that the officers check passports before passengers board the train
Then what I would do is check at all stations(when passsengers have got off the train) thus making sure border security cannot be bypassed

But they would be sharing the same train with domestic passengers in your scenario, who presumably would not need to show their passports. It may be possible to have one end of the train and platform for international and one end for domestic, but that is starting to get very complicated indeed, and means the train would need to run half empty for much of its journey

 

[Hey 3]

But they would be sharing the same train with domestic passengers in your scenario, who presumably would not need to show their passports. It may be possible to have one end of the train and platform for international and one end for domestic, but that is starting to get very complicated indeed, and means the train would need to run half empty for much of its journey

What can be done then is say you have a 16 coach train(8 cars would be for domestic passenger and other half would be for international passengers) You could use a fence to separate the passengers on the platform and have one door that cannot be opened execpt for emergency.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What can be done then is say you have a 16 coach train(8 cars would be for domestic passenger and other half would be for international passengers) You could use a fence to separate the passengers on the platform and have one door that cannot be opened execpt for emergency.

I'm not sure that it'd be practical to do that at every station. You can't really rig up an international departure lounge at Warrington Bank Quay. And all this for 2 trains per day when the alternative is a much more frequent connection?

 

[Ianno87]

I'm not sure that it'd be practical to do that at every station. You can't really rig up an international departure lounge at Warrington Bank Quay. And all this for 2 trains per day when the alternative is a much more frequent connection?

I get the feeling that all this could simply be addressed by more elegant through ticketing between HS2 and Eurostar services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I get the feeling that all this could simply be addressed by more elegant through ticketing between HS2 and Eurostar services.

Or just bring in a UK law requiring railway operators with at least one point of the journey in the UK to rebook and provide a hotel if necessary if a connection is missed as a result of a train delay regardless of whether a through ticket is held or not. Then it doesn't matter how you book.

Though I suppose to be fair it's prudent to have travel insurance for any international trip, and that would cover that exact scenario.

 

[BayPaul]

What can be done then is say you have a 16 coach train(8 cars would be for domestic passenger and other half would be for international passengers) You could use a fence to separate the passengers on the platform and have one door that cannot be opened execpt for emergency.

The issue with that is that the train would probably need to go through the tunnel half full, as presumably you couldn't load the domestic carriages with international passengers until Ashford, if at all. You'd also need to do some kind of security sweep through the domestic carriages before going international, to look out for stowaways. The fences at the stations would need to be very substantial as well. I think this is all the reason why this has never been done on Eurostar. I'm not trying to put obstacles in the path, but I really don't think this is an option, unless we join Schengen.

Another way of operating it would be to run from multiple UK stations to a very limited number of EU stations (Paris and Brussels), and do all the passport control at that end, so if any domestic passengers get that far they are turned around and sent home. The issue is that the train would be running over Schengen territory with unchecked passengers onboard, who could 'escape' en route, so I understand that the immigration authorities refuse to countenance that option.

 

[Ianno87]

Another way of operating it would be to run from multiple UK stations to a very limited number of EU stations (Paris and Brussels), and do all the passport control at that end, so if any domestic passengers get that far they are turned around and sent home. The issue is that the train would be running over Schengen territory with unchecked passengers onboard, who could 'escape' en route, so I understand that the immigration authorities refuse to countenance that option.

Gare du Nord basically isn't set up to support that - currently you just walk straight off the end of the platform.

 

[BrianW]

Or a monorail!

Regarding 'connection' between Euston and KingsX/St Pancras Internat- leaving aside why and how many might want or need to do so, and those who have little to no idea or experience of the proximity and ease or otherwise of walking ...

Noting how 'speedsters' would pass standees on escalators , as a kid (pre-decimal) I had a notion of a series of parallel 'travelators' each moving at (slightly) higher speed ...

Another notion, closer to Camflyer, a continuous circuit of jump-on/ jump off ski-lift/ treetop 'moving pavement'/'green walk' linking? Phoenix Rd/ Brill Place?

 

[XAM2175]

I'm a little bit lost as to how all this North of London demand that wasn't viable before now has suddenly become something worth spending even more money on.

 

[D365]

I'm a little bit lost as to how all this North of London demand that wasn't viable before now has suddenly become something worth spending even more money on.

That’s exactly why this subforum exists - to invent such demand

 

[Hey 3]

I'm a little bit lost as to how all this North of London demand that wasn't viable before now has suddenly become something worth spending even more money on.

Because some people do not like the airline experience and with climate change there is more demand for greener travel and Eurostar and trains plus the North of London plan can do that

 

[Ianno87]

Because people dont like the airline experience, climate change there is more demand for greener travel and Eurostar and trains plus the North of London plan can do that

People can travel by train today, it just needs a change in London.

 

[JohnElliott]

....none of which can take 400 metre long trains. Or could sensibly be adapted to do so.

Well, if that doesn't appeal, turn sharp left at Redhill and run to Ashford. HS1-HS2 link!

 

[CW2]

When the HS2 - HS1 link was first mooted many moons ago, I tried to ascertain the likely level of demand. Birmingham Airport publishes figures for passenger loadings. I decided that Birmingham to Paris was probably the strongest possible city pairing of potential passengers. So I added together the Birmingham - Charles De Gaulle, Roissy, and Beauvais reported passenger loadings over all airlines. The results were instructive. If you gained 100% of the market share for the entire day, there still wouldn't be enough passengers to fill a single HS2 service.

The link is an economic basket case, and was rightly ditched. Can we move on now please?

 

[Snow1964]

Through station to where exactly?

It would be a horrendous amount of work to find a place to send 18 400m formations every hour.

I think the assumption that everything has to go through is wrong,
Would have been lot more logical to have continued just 6-9 trains per hour through a tunnel.

As to where, the answer would have been a South London station where there was big redevelopment site (something like Elephant & Castle), where a big hole could have been dug which is much cheaper than tunnelling a station, before building over, perhaps via Croydon to Gatwick, or using the old SE Railway route to Tonbridge or connecting to HS1 via Bickley

 

[Ianno87]

When the HS2 - HS1 link was first mooted many moons ago, I tried to ascertain the likely level of demand. Birmingham Airport publishes figures for passenger loadings. I decided that Birmingham to Paris was probably the strongest possible city pairing of potential passengers. So I added together the Birmingham - Charles De Gaulle, Roissy, and Beauvais reported passenger loadings over all airlines. The results were instructive. If you gained 100% of the market share for the entire day, there still wouldn't be enough passengers to fill a single HS2 service.

The link is an economic basket case, and was rightly ditched. Can we move on now please?

It's interesting that of all continental Eurostar destinations, Amsterdam actually generates more air demand from Manchester and Birmingham than Paris does, though:

-Alot of that demand is almost certainly connectional traffic, and
-A ~5.5 hour journey time from Manchester will struggle to attract passengers.

 

[XAM2175]

Because people dont like the airline experience, climate change there is more demand for greener travel and Eurostar and trains plus the North of London plan can do that

I think realistically your reply should read more like "some people don't like the airline experience, [and] climate change [means] there is some demand for greener travel".

And in response, as @Ianno87 has already noted, there's absolutely nothing stopping those people from using current conventional and future HS2 services to travel to London and connecting there to current Eurostar services. Improving that experience is a hell of a lot cheaper than building a London bypass for what is really no more than a handful of people a day.