The proposed Northern Ireland to Scotland tunnel - it is now confirmed will not be built

[37424]

It could be used for corridor freight trains from Ireland to Calais though, trains that might be faster than the ferries. So it would not be completly useless even after Brexit.

It might but they are avoiding the UK more with ferries going direct to the Europe in order to avoid the No tariff barriers your going to get in the UK

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2021 ==

But now they are British cod, so it is important that we keep them happier.

Don't forget the Tuna either which are now coming back to British shores according to Farage, of course they are coming back to British Shores because of Brexit.

 

[zwk500]

It could be used for corridor freight trains from Ireland to Calais though, trains that might be faster than the ferries. So it would not be completly useless even after Brexit.

The cost of traversing 3 customs borders (EU/GB, GB/NI, NI/EU) will far outweigh any time savings. Not to mention the cost to GB, NI and RoI of gauge-clearing the route for container traffic.

 

[JonasB]

It might but they are avoiding the UK more with ferries going direct to the Europe in order to avoid the No tariff barriers your going to get in the UK

The cost of traversing 3 customs borders (EU/GB, GB/NI, NI/EU) will far outweigh any time savings.

That's why I mentioned corridor trains.

Not to mention the cost to GB, NI and RoI of gauge-clearing the route for container traffic.

I know the british loading gauge is small, but is it too small for normal shipping containers?

 

[matt_world2004]

If you were building a tunnel between Great Britain and the Island of Ireland then wouldn't a hyperloop be better ? Not much compatibility between the standard gauge and Irish gauge railway so may as well use new more efficient infrastructure

 

[Halifaxlad]

It's a stupid idea to sink some money into consultancy firms

Stupid idea or not its got to be considered simply as a matter of politics.

I'd fully expect Hendy's report will bury this proposal at the bottom of Beaufort's Dyke where it belongs...

HS2 Phase 2b East (should that be 2c?) - to say the least, it's the only one of the two proposals with any sort of detailed plan!

I suspect the connectivity review will propose extending HS2 to Scotland!

I suggest that a tube that can be sealed at both ends, has at least one pointy end, and floats, is probably the right solution.

Cheeky answers aside, it would be interesting to hear about such techniques of course.

As far as I know, there has never been a ‘sunken tube’ type tunnel, for rail or road, that isn’t on the sea bed, and isn’t protected by being buried by rock or other aggregate. It is inconceivable that there would be one that ‘floats’ a long way under the surface.

They're an interesting video called 'Norway’s $47BN Coastal Highway' that includes floating bridges/floating tunnel actively being considered.

 

[zwk500]

That's why I mentioned corridor trains.

Corridor trains will still involved significant costs and special operating procedures to secure the customs 'bubble' so to speak - look at the issues Eurostar has had, and that's just trying to go from A to B, let alone A1 to A2 via B

I know the british loading gauge is small, but is it too small for normal shipping containers?

Normally yes. There is a cleared route from Dollands Moor (channel tunnel) to Glasgow via Carlisle, so depending how you got from Carlisle to Stranraer it might not be too bad. I have no idea about the Irish loading gauge(s)

 

[quantinghome]

If you were building a tunnel between Great Britain and the Island of Ireland then wouldn't a hyperloop be better ? Not much compatibility between the standard gauge and Irish gauge railway so may as well use new more efficient infrastructure

Hyperloop is neither new nor efficient.

 

[kevin_roche]

Has 01st April arrived early this year ?

I think it is last year's which has not ended as far as I can tell.

 

[camflyer]

Gareth Dennis did a long video on the costs and practicalities of various GB-Island of Ireland rail links

 

[RT4038]

Corridor trains will still involved significant costs and special operating procedures to secure the customs 'bubble' so to speak - look at the issues Eurostar has had, and that's just trying to go from A to B, let alone A1 to A2 via B

Normally yes. There is a cleared route from Dollands Moor (channel tunnel) to Glasgow via Carlisle, so depending how you got from Carlisle to Stranraer it might not be too bad. I have no idea about the Irish loading gauge(s)

I didn't know that Eurostar had tried to operate any kind of 'corridor' train, particularly a Freight train [in your example A1 to A2 via B]? Not sure that any of the issues that Eurostar have pertains to 'corridor' trains?

For the avoidance of doubt, a 'corridor' train is one that travels from one part of a country (or customs or immigration zone) to another, via a second country outwith that customs or immigration zone, sealed and without border checks. In the case Ireland to Europe, this could only apply to freight traffic in the EU single market, as Ireland and Europe are not in the same Immigration zones for passenger traffic.

 

[berneyarms]

People need to realise that this is Boris Johnson merely playing the unionist card and a classic political attempt to continue deflect attention from the ongoing impact of Brexit in NI, and in particular the issues with the implementation of the NI protocol.

It's a sop to the DUP so that they can promote some flag waving propaganda to their support base. They are the only party apart from the ultra-unionist TUV taking this seriously on the island of Ireland.

It is a political pipedream for unionism and nothing more than that.

 

[XAM2175]

In a time when it's looking like rail will be more short of funds than ever, do we really need a multi-billion-pound white elephant?

There are enough places in the UK already which would benefit from electrification, reopening, rolling stock renewal, capacity increase, etc.

Be completely assured that this is entirely to do with Mr Johnson wanting to look like he genuinely cares about our glorious Union etc etc. Rail is only involved because building a road tunnel that long will involve three thousand years of health-and-safety wrangling before it's eventually decided that people won't be allowed to drive through it.

 

[zwk500]

I didn't know that Eurostar had tried to operate any kind of 'corridor' train, particularly a Freight train [in your example A1 to A2 via B]? Not sure that any of the issues that Eurostar have pertains to 'corridor' trains?

For the avoidance of doubt, a 'corridor' train is one that travels from one part of a country to another, via a second country, sealed and without border checks. In the case Ireland to Europe, this could only apply to freight traffic in the EU single market, as Ireland and Europe are not in the same Immigration zones for passenger traffic.

Eurostar's problems are different to freight traffic, but there were problems with people wishing to travel Brussels-Lille on UK-bound trains. Also the pick-up/set-down only operation in the UK can cause issues. You're right that freight wouldn't have the same issues.

I didn't say corridor trains are impossible, just more complex than waving it through border control. They may need to have secure sidings set aside for them to be held in, or be accompanied by customs staff/police to ensure the integrity of the load. Most of the examples listed on the wiki page are for stretches under 20km, whereas a train running more than the length of England is going to need to stop at some point. The complexities of organising and verifying a customs-secured load (especially one economical to operate) are probably enough that most RoI-EU traffic will go through Rosslare. Especially as the time difference for a Truck to drive to Cherbourg, cross the ferry and drive to Dublin is going to compare pretty well against a container train routed Kent-Crewe-Carlisle-Stanraer-Larne-Belfast.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't know why they use the term "rail bosses", as though it has to be an all-rail scheme.
The only railway connection is that Peter Hendy is Chairman of Network Rall, but his study is about wider aspects than just rail.
An NI rail link like the Getlink dedicated shuttle for road vehicles (mostly freight) would not necessarily involve connecting or through rail services from GB.
The cost of the connecting railway is what sank the 1975 channel tunnel scheme.

 

[Wynd]

People need to realise that this is Boris Johnson merely playing the unionist card and a classic political attempt to continue deflect attention from the ongoing impact of Brexit in NI, and in particular the issues with the implementation of the NI protocol.

It's a sop to the DUP so that they can promote some flag waving propaganda to their support base. They are the only party apart from the ultra-unionist TUV taking this seriously on the island of Ireland.

It is a political pipedream for unionism and nothing more than that.

The unmistakable sound of hammer striking nail.

Its a laughable proposition, absolutely fraught with engineering challenges for a very limited/non existent business case. It gets even more farcical when you think about who is funding this and how. The Treasury, spending/borrowing those kind of sums for the regional backwaters? Dont they get enough charity as it is?

File under "for the bin".

 

[MotCO]

I thought the link between NI and the rest of the UK was to demonstrate that NI is still an integral part of the UK. The flaw in the argument is that by the time any tunnel is constructed, it would link NI and Scotland, and Scotland will probably no longer be part of the UK by then. Scotland could be part of the EU, so the link would be from NI to a non-UK country, which somehow defeats the objects of a unity project.

 

[zwk500]

I thought the link between NI and the rest of the UK was to demonstrate that NI is still an integral part of the UK. The flaw in the argument is that by the time any tunnel is constructed, it would link NI and Scotland, and Scotland will probably no longer be part of the UK by then. Scotland could be part of the EU, so the link would be from NI to a non-UK country, which somehow defeats the objects of a unity project.

Unless the purpose of announcing the link is instead to generate headlines for the PM for electoral reasons or just because he likes to engage in verbal crayoning.

 

[JonasB]

We all know that dual-gauge track is a thing, right? This is by far and away the smallest of the problems associated with the proposal.

So true, the different gauges are not a problem, they are at most a minor inconvenience compared to the other problems with the proposal.

Just look at the different Spanish solutions to the problem. Regauging the line to Belfast from the tunnel is not a big issue, neither is electrifying it. For trains continuing to Dublin or other towns on the island there could be dual gauge trains, or do as they do in Spain and build a new standard gauge high speed line from Belfast to Dublin. That would allow direct trains London-Dublin and Edinburgh-Dublin. And even none of those solutions are used, having to change train in Belfast is probably not a big problem.

 

[d9009alycidon]

Feeling of Dejavu when I read this thread, we have been here before, recently. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-ireland-scotland-rail-tunnel.211042/

 

[zwk500]

So true, the different gauges are not a problem, they are at most a minor inconvenience compared to the other problems with the proposal.

They are not a minor inconvenience, but neither are they an insurmountable obstacle. The question is what price are you willing to pay?

Just look at the different Spanish solutions to the problem.

This is expensive, and has a high maintenance cost.

Regauging the line to Belfast from the tunnel is not a big issue, neither is electrifying it.

Regauging would be difficult due to the need to maintain the other Irish gauge lines. Dual gauge is possible but carries a maintenance penalty.

For trains continuing to Dublin or other towns on the island there could be dual gauge trains, or do as they do in Spain and build a new standard gauge high speed line from Belfast to Dublin.

A new HS line is probably the optimal solution, but it would be difficult to see a positive business case.

That would allow direct trains London-Dublin and Edinburgh-Dublin. And even none of those solutions are used, having to change train in Belfast is probably not a big problem.

'direct' is a generous description of London to Belfast/Dublin via Stranraer. Edinburgh-Dublin is a tiny market: 650k annual air passengers Edinburgh-Dublin against almost 4 million London-Dublin. And don't expect all of those to transfer to rail.

 

[XAM2175]

Just look at the different Spanish solutions to the problem.

Conversely, the Australian solution would be to dual-gauge Larne to Belfast and then tolerate an inconvenient break-of-gauge at Belfast for eighty-odd years before finally converting one of the broad-gauge Belfast-Dublin lines to standard gauge. These two parallel single-track lines would then be maintained by different infrastructure managers and used by different operators for another forty-odd years before somebody finally stumped up the cash for converting the remaining BG line to SG. Much more exciting

'direct' is a generous description of London to Belfast/Dublin via Stranraer. Edinburgh-Dublin is a tiny market: 650k annual air passengers Edinburgh-Dublin against almost 4 million London-Dublin. And don't expect all of those to transfer to rail.

Time for some vast increases in Air Passenger Duty then!

 

[berneyarms]

So true, the different gauges are not a problem, they are at most a minor inconvenience compared to the other problems with the proposal.

Just look at the different Spanish solutions to the problem. Regauging the line to Belfast from the tunnel is not a big issue, neither is electrifying it. For trains continuing to Dublin or other towns on the island there could be dual gauge trains, or do as they do in Spain and build a new standard gauge high speed line from Belfast to Dublin. That would allow direct trains London-Dublin and Edinburgh-Dublin. And even none of those solutions are used, having to change train in Belfast is probably not a big problem.

Conversely, the Australian solution would be to dual-gauge Larne to Belfast and then tolerate an inconvenient break-of-gauge at Belfast for eighty-odd years before finally converting one of the broad-gauge Belfast-Dublin lines to standard gauge. These two parallel single-track lines would then be maintained by different infrastructure managers and used by different operators for another forty-odd years before somebody finally stumped up the cash for converting the remaining BG line to SG. Much more exciting


Time for some vast increases in Air Passenger Duty then!

Given the total lack of interest in this tunnel proposal in Ireland and the derision with which it is viewed (people are not stupid - they see this as pure political pipe smoke from Johnson), that won't be happening.

The notion that people in any numbers are going to take a much slower rail journey going in a massive loop north to get from Dublin to London is nonsense rather than a direct flight is nonsense.

Really people need to stop even remotely taking this seriously and realise that is a sop to unionist politicians in NI.

 

[PeterC]

So true, the different gauges are not a problem, they are at most a minor inconvenience compared to the other problems with the proposal.

Just look at the different Spanish solutions to the problem. Regauging the line to Belfast from the tunnel is not a big issue, neither is electrifying it. For trains continuing to Dublin or other towns on the island there could be dual gauge trains, or do as they do in Spain and build a new standard gauge high speed line from Belfast to Dublin. That would allow direct trains London-Dublin and Edinburgh-Dublin. And even none of those solutions are used, having to change train in Belfast is probably not a big problem.

I would have assumed a new HS line from the portal to Belfast rather than dump the traffic onto the local line from Larne to Belfast.

 

[XAM2175]

Really people need to stop even remotely taking this seriously and realise that is a sop to unionist politicians in NI.

I can absolutely assure you that this is nothing more than comedy for me. It's such a nice change from pouring cold water on Project Thor!

Though I am touched that my suggestion of a hundred-and-twenty-year-long gauge-conversion project appears even vaguely serious

 

[ScotTrains]

I would prefer if the money was spent relocating the ferry terminal back to Stranraer, re-opening the Dumfries to Stranraer line and improving the Ayr to Stranraer section. Promoting special rail-sail tickets would then encourage people to use the service.
Perhaps introducing a train ferry from Stranraer would encourage more freight use too.

 

[BayPaul]

I would prefer if the money was spent relocating the ferry terminal back to Stranraer, re-opening the Dumfries to Stranraer line and improving the Ayr to Stranraer section. Promoting special rail-sail tickets would then encourage people to use the service.
Perhaps introducing a train ferry from Stranraer would encourage more freight use too.

Why on earth would anyone (in particular Stena and P&O) want to move the ferry terminal back to Stranraer? The ferry service has benefited hugely from the shorter journey times and ability to use larger ships since moving down Loch Ryan. If there was a great desire to have direct rail - ship services, then a rail line to Cairnryan would surely be the only way to go.

Train ferries are incredibly inefficient, and the gauge issue makes them even less feasible on Irish sea routes.

 

[berneyarms]

I can absolutely assure you that this is nothing more than comedy for me. It's such a nice change from pouring cold water on Project Thor!

Though I am touched that my suggestion of a hundred-and-twenty-year-long gauge-conversion project appears even vaguely serious

I was referring to the suggestion of increasing APD to be fair.

I did cop that the rest was fantasy!

 

[zwk500]

I would prefer if the money was spent relocating the ferry terminal back to Stranraer, re-opening the Dumfries to Stranraer line and improving the Ayr to Stranraer section. Promoting special rail-sail tickets would then encourage people to use the service.

I don't see the ferries moving further into the lock any time soon. A dedicated, ticketed bus from Stranraer station to Cairnryan (in the same manner as Luton Airport) would be the most effective way of promoting rail users, although all the advertising in the world won't help much as Ayr-Stranraer is never going to justify spending anywhere near enough money on it. A through-ticketed dedicated bus from Ayr is probably a more attractive prospect.

Perhaps introducing a train ferry from Stranraer would encourage more freight use too.

The wonderful thing about containers is they do away with outdated methods of operation like train ferries.

 

[JonasB]

I didn't say corridor trains are impossible, just more complex than waving it through border control. They may need to have secure sidings set aside for them to be held in, or be accompanied by customs staff/police to ensure the integrity of the load.

Before the single market, this was common all over Europe. It could be as easy as the Irish customs sealing the containers before the train departs, and then the French customs checks the seals when the train arrives.

'direct' is a generous description of London to Belfast/Dublin via Stranraer.

Direct as in "no need to change train".

Edinburgh-Dublin is a tiny market: 650k annual air passengers Edinburgh-Dublin

If you add Dublin-Glasgow, Belfast-Glasgow and Belfast-Edinburgh you get close to 2 million pre-Covid passengers. That is on average 5250 daily passengers, or enough to fill almost 12 daily ICE3s.

 

[XAM2175]

I was referring to the suggestion of increasing APD to be fair.

Yeah I'll give you that, hah.

There is room for a bigger discussion about the government using various fees and taxes to drive passengers from flights to trains where they make a viable alternative (on environment grounds, for example), but London to Dublin via Carlisle and Belfast is very clearly not one of those situations.