moonrakerz
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What was your dog doing on that train?
He was on his way from Barking to Pett's Wood
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Unpaid Fare notice - but valid ticket!!
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He was on his way from Barking to Pett's Wood
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Bill Badger
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moonrakerz
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Did he have a Rover Ticket
No, but the cat who was travelling with him had an Advance Purrchase ticket !
In the situation as explained by the OP, clearly there has been no fraud, as the OP has not enjoyed a financial or convenience benefit and has proof.
It is natural to try to avoid doing business with companies you have had a bad experience with. The railway often seems to assume it is a monopoly supplier of travel, forgetting the existence of the private car.
Clearly the correct fare has been paid. She had travelled on the right train. She didn't even start long or end short!
12CSVT
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Yet another case of 'rules are rules'. And this is the problem - petty rules are petty, antagonistic, pedantic rules.
Quite clearly the guard has opted to use procedures designed to deal with deliberate fare evaders on an unsuspecting fare paying passenger who did nothing worse than forget to bring the seat reservation. This appears to be a problem throughout the railway industry where people who have made an innocent mistake are treated as criminals.
I suspect another problem is that some TOCs put pressure on revenue staff to issue a set quota of penalty fares.
Quite clearly the guard has opted to use procedures designed to deal with deliberate fare evaders on an unsuspecting fare paying passenger who did nothing worse than forget to bring the seat reservation. This appears to be a problem throughout the railway industry where people who have made an innocent mistake are treated as criminals.
I suspect another problem is that some TOCs put pressure on revenue staff to issue a set quota of penalty fares.
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No, but the cat who was travelling with him had an Advance Purrchase ticket !
Certainly gives you paws for thought.
I think that the requirement to carry a valid ticket is a pretty reasonable rule!
However, I don't think that Advance tickets should come as two portions, this is just causing lots of problems to lots of people.
If e-tickets can be accepted, then a proof of reservation should be accepted also.
It is not impossible for the reservation information to be stored so that the guard can look it up. I have seen, on some services, the names of the passengers printed on the reservation labels.
I don't blame the guard at all (alleged conduct notwithstanding), the passenger didn't have a valid ticket, and he was left in the position of being the person to enforce the rule.
Solent&Wessex
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One of the problems I encounter, as I suspect does everyone else, is trying to weedle out those that have made a genuine error from those that have done whatever it is on purpose.
I have had many many an Advance ticket presented without one portion or the other. The problem is this : Without the seat reservation we have no way of knowing whether it is booked on that train or not. Sometimes the passenger has the booking confirmation email or suchlike, and as long as this matches up with the CTR reference code and shows that train then I'm happy. If they have nothing then I have no evidence. Now, there is an internal service we can use where we can call to check on the booking details of a ticket, but this is only open Monday to Friday office hours so not much help at any other time. The options are generally two fold: buy a new ticket (and I will endorse the original ticket "No Reservation shown 1Pxx" or whatever) and advise them to contact customer relations, or issue an UPFN and advise them to write in explaining the situation etc. I generally prefer the former as I suspect that the TOC customer relations may be more helpful than RPSS. More often than not, the lack of a seat reservation indicates the person is on the wrong train - and checks have often proven this.
Without the ticket (which is also quite common) then there is no way of knowing whether the ticket has been taken to an office and exchanged, altered, rebooked or whatever. Thus, in this case, a new ticket or UPFN is always issued regardless of whether they are on the correct train.
Other regular situations are the "I haven't been able to collect the ticket" scenraio. Now, if this as a fault of a TOC then provided Control will authorise it then using the reference number is fine, but we have always been advised that the ticket is not actually paid for until the ticket is collected. Whether this is correct or not, I don't know. Only last week I had a passenger travelling Sunderland to Manchester Airport. When I did a full inspection after York they were using their email print out to travel (apparently the last train GC I think according to the itinary) had said OK. It turned out that the passenger didn't have the card used to make the booking (as they hadn't actually booked it) and couldn't therefore collect the tickets. I phoned the CTR helpdesk who advised the ticket had not been collected, but that without the correct card the passenger would not be able to collect the ticket from an SSTM or Ticket Office, and that payment would not be collected. Now as they had no money I issued an UPFN and advised them to write a letter in explaining the situation, and also to contact whoever they brought the ticket from (trainline). The email print out clearly said "You must have the card used to book the ticket" and "you will not be able to travel on the email or reference number alone" so was I being nasty or just doing my job?
I could go on about endless other situations where I could er on the side of the passenger but who to believe??
The following are all regular :
"I've picked up the wrong railcard by mistake"
"It's obvious I have one at home as I am a student"
"That bloke on the station said it was ok just to show my student card"
"The bloke on the station said you can catch any train with this ticket"
"The bloke at the office sold it to me and said it is fine" (When it is an SSTM ticket!)
"yes, I am 15"
"No one ever said I needed to show it"
"It's at home"
"I've lost it"
"I was mugged last night"
"I've lost the ticket but I've got the receipt"
etc etc etc
With limited time and resources on train my policy is to charge a new ticket or UPFN in nearly all situations then someone with more time and resources can deal with it later.
MidnightFlyer
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First one - what?
Second one - ask them the YEAR they were born in - all fare evaders stumble on that one
Solent&Wessex
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First one - what?
Second one - ask them the YEAR they were born in - all fare evaders stumble on that one
First one, the other week when I was presented with a over 1 month out of date 16-25 railcard the whole argument for me not charging them again was that it was obvious she was a student (she had a NUS card), had an out of date railcard and therefore it was obvious that she had a new railcard, she had just left it at home.
Second one - not so. Only today I had a near 30 minute long debate with a girl who insisted she was born in June 1995 (making her 15) and was ok to use a child fare. My gut instint said she was lying and I tried various questions such as what school do you go to, and got no where, although the answers got less certain as time went on. So I called BTP who spoke with her, and she told them she was 15, born in 1995. They didn't believe her either and it eventualy turned out she was born in June 1990, making her 20 - she had just advanced her year of birth by 5!
MidnightFlyer
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Hi thanks for all your ideas - this is the letter I am considering sending tomorrow ...
To whom it may concern:
xx September 2010 on the xx train from xxxx to London.
Having bought my ticket online from the East Coast website, I collected it from the machine at Leeds using the booking reference (which was emailed to me) about half an hour before going through the barriers to board the train.
At the time I was carrying some very heavy and bulky bags, and I believe that either during or after I went through the ticket barrier the seat reservation fell out of my pocket without my knowledge. I was not aware of this until the ticket conductor came round and requested tickets. I handed him the ticket and the receipt, and went through my bags extensively to try and locate the missing piece of paper which I could not find. I was however able to show him the booking confirmation on my Iphone, (which clearly stated the time, date and details including the seat reservation information and of course I wouldnt have been able to print out the ticket without this) before he issued me with an Unpaid Penalty Fare Notice. I have attached the receipt and booking confirmation for your perusal, the guard however did not give me back the ticket itself.
Although I completely understand and agree that train companies should be able to fine passengers who are clearly fare evading (and as a long standing passenger of railways, I positively welcome such measures to keep my ticket prices down!) In this instance I feel it is clear that I was not evading any fares or defrauding the system and that I could produce documentation to show I was travelling correctly. Furthermore I asked the Ticket Guard to contact your telesales department, who I believe would have been able to confirm that I had paid for this journey he refused to do this and said I was wasting his time. I also understand that there is normally a reservations list onboard trains that Ticket Guards can check.
In short as a train company you have not lost any revenue and I do not think it is fair to penalise a paying passenger by issuing a UPFN who has already payed for a ticket on the train she was travelling on and I therefore trust that you will in this case find it fair that I do not have to pay for same journey again and that I do not need to pay the UPFN which as I understand is there to protect revenue rather than penalise passengers.
(i have also included a formal complaint against the ticket guard in this but perhaps not best to share this on the forum...)
Anything to add?
To whom it may concern:
xx September 2010 on the xx train from xxxx to London.
Having bought my ticket online from the East Coast website, I collected it from the machine at Leeds using the booking reference (which was emailed to me) about half an hour before going through the barriers to board the train.
At the time I was carrying some very heavy and bulky bags, and I believe that either during or after I went through the ticket barrier the seat reservation fell out of my pocket without my knowledge. I was not aware of this until the ticket conductor came round and requested tickets. I handed him the ticket and the receipt, and went through my bags extensively to try and locate the missing piece of paper which I could not find. I was however able to show him the booking confirmation on my Iphone, (which clearly stated the time, date and details including the seat reservation information and of course I wouldnt have been able to print out the ticket without this) before he issued me with an Unpaid Penalty Fare Notice. I have attached the receipt and booking confirmation for your perusal, the guard however did not give me back the ticket itself.
Although I completely understand and agree that train companies should be able to fine passengers who are clearly fare evading (and as a long standing passenger of railways, I positively welcome such measures to keep my ticket prices down!) In this instance I feel it is clear that I was not evading any fares or defrauding the system and that I could produce documentation to show I was travelling correctly. Furthermore I asked the Ticket Guard to contact your telesales department, who I believe would have been able to confirm that I had paid for this journey he refused to do this and said I was wasting his time. I also understand that there is normally a reservations list onboard trains that Ticket Guards can check.
In short as a train company you have not lost any revenue and I do not think it is fair to penalise a paying passenger by issuing a UPFN who has already payed for a ticket on the train she was travelling on and I therefore trust that you will in this case find it fair that I do not have to pay for same journey again and that I do not need to pay the UPFN which as I understand is there to protect revenue rather than penalise passengers.
(i have also included a formal complaint against the ticket guard in this but perhaps not best to share this on the forum...)
Anything to add?
Solent&Wessex
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1 - so did you charge her again?
2 - you legend
1 - Yes. After loosing the battle about the railcard she then wanted to pay the Excess fare only. She didn't, she paid the full fare again.
2- I try my best. She didn't seem too happy when both myself and BTP pointed out that it will almost certainly go to court and if found guilty she will get a fine and criminal record. Only then did she realise the seriousness of it all and offer to pay again. But by that my mind was made up, she was being reported. Not only did she deliberately buy the wrong ticket in an attempt to avoid paying the correct fare, she also told myself and the BTP porkies as regards he personal details etc.
MidnightFlyer
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Remember once I was on a train nr Markinch I think, on an SR local, and there was a man got on, with ticket, a Child one. The guard came through, saw it, said 'When were you born'. He gave an answer (something like 93), and the guard said 'I don't think your a Child, do you' and he said 'well, the guy at the station sold me that'. I continued a while, and the guard gave up, because tbh he looked 30, but also like the guy who would literally smack your face in if you tried to do anything
scotsman
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What was your dog doing on that train?
I can and do charge for dogs....
From a complete layman's perspective it looks fine. I'd hope that one of the more expert members will comment later on. What I would add is that as tomorrow is when you are supposed to be responding by it might be an idea to fax the letter if you can, or telephone customer services and see if they can give you a specific email address.
When I see a child ticket, I generally ask:
"You're under 18, aren't you?"
"Yeah."
"Okay, how old?"
(usual response is then) "17"
"Thank you, step this way, please..." ^.^
moonrakerz
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Yes ......... the bottom line is that you were NOT travelling correctly, the Ts & Cs of the ticket you purchased said that you must carry the seat/train reservation with you - you didn't. Therefore i.a.w. those Ts & Cs you had NO valid ticket. You were happy to accept those Ts & Cs to get a much reduced fare, but now are saying that they shouldn't apply to you any more - you really can't have it both ways !!
Ignoring your allegation about the behaviour of the guard, which is another matter - he was doing his job - no less and no more !
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hock:I can confirm that this isn't correct. I recently booked a journey on a Monday, for travel on a Friday. On checking my credit card statement, my card was charged on the Monday however I didn't pick up the tickets from the machine until just before departing on the Friday.
Also, when picking up tickets, the machine clearly says that the card is for ID purposes only and will not be charged.
So if they've booked for collection via a ticket machine, but don't have the credit card on them, they've still paid.
Don't envy you having to sort that out though.
If the OP genuinely lost the ticket and could prove by means of the email receipt, I think some discretion should be shown.
In my opinion, the simple solution that suits both parties is to sell a new ticket and then have a procedure to allow the passenger to apply for a refund (less an admin fee). If genuine, it seems fair and the OP can simply try harder to keep the ticket safe (and treat it as something as valuable as your house keys or wallet/purse). If fraudulent, but without proof, the passenger is definitely NOT getting a refund and will be suitably stung. If it's clear that it's fraudulent then it's a visit to court.
From the way this incident is described, there is little chance that there was an intent to defraud. We've been told that the email proved she travelled on the correct train, so it wasn't a case of losing the ticket to disguise the fact she had missed the booked train.
Only if that was a lie should the OP stand no chance of success in an appeal. Only she can prove that as we can't know either way.
Tom B
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I agree with this - in such a case, the passenger should pay for a fresh ticket and then submit the new ticket and details of the old to the Customer Service department, who (a few months later) can issue a refund for the fresh ticket.
It would help passengers, guards and the industry in general IMO if such a procedure were implemented and clearly explained to all parties.
It does seem like a solution that helps the genuine people and punishes the con artists, without the member of staff needing to take a guess on the likelihood of them telling the truth.
With the appeals process, and the admin fee, it would be recorded and generate a little extra income. You could then spot someone that makes loads of appeals. Perhaps introduce a limit to the appeals, to 1 or 2 per calendar year.
Yes, you may get organised people who can claim under loads of different names and identities but it seems unlikely. If you issued cheques instead of rail vouchers, you'd also make it harder to do that too.
With the appeals process, and the admin fee, it would be recorded and generate a little extra income. You could then spot someone that makes loads of appeals. Perhaps introduce a limit to the appeals, to 1 or 2 per calendar year.
Yes, you may get organised people who can claim under loads of different names and identities but it seems unlikely. If you issued cheques instead of rail vouchers, you'd also make it harder to do that too.
That is most commendable but I am not convinced that is always the case on EC, however I agree it's what should happen, and the way it generally is among guards who are, to be fair, mostly good!
That makes sense, the OP in this case would, in the circumstances described, have not experienced the problem described.
Yes, that makes sense. If they can't do what the OP did, and log on and prove it (or have the confirmation printed out) there's nothing else you can do really, and that's fair enough.
Yes, without the ticket, that's a rather different matter and they really have no leg to stand on!
Oh, how I wish that were true! You can now add that to the list of things to correct them on
If it were true, you could decide not to use an Advance ticket and not pay for it if you were then too ill to travel or something else cropped up.The latter!
However management are misinformed as the original card was already billed for the ticket at the time of purchase. It is true that the machines will only print the ticket with the correct card for security reasons, however if the customer went to a staffed station that is linked to the reservation system and has a reasonably trained member of staff, then they should be able to get it issued by revealing the name of the cardholder and the first line of the address. This is the case on East Coast, I know as I've done it myself, and others here had a problem and we advised them to ask at a ticket office and they eventually found one that had a clue. Either the passenger didn't ask at Sunderland ticket office, or they were badly advised by the ticket office, or it was simply beyond the capabilities of the staff. It's a shame they didn't try at York as they would probably have had success there. If you were feeling nice and if the customer didn't mind a delay at Leeds and assuming it wasn't an Advance ticket, I guess you could have let them try there, but you're certainly under no obligation to do so and the excess fare window may be unable to assist (I have no idea) and the barriers may then be an issue for them. As I said earlier, shame they didn't get it sorted at York, I bet York would have done it!Indefensible excuses IMO.
Unlikely excuses
I suspect a disproportionately high percentage of people on trains and buses are apparently aged 15. In reality, the actual number of 15 year olds will be much lower I am sure.
'No? But the conditions do!'
As above, indefensible.
'In that case, let me take down your name and address so we can arrange for you to be billed for this ticket you need to purchase'
nedchester
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Kwvr45 seems to show a reasonable approach but you can't help thinking that there are some "bounty hunters" working out there trying to trap the unsuspecting passenger?
I'm amazed how many times I hear 'the bloke on the station said I could use this Advance on any train'. I have a standard answer now - 'well, there was no need to ask in the first place really - it says "booked train only" on the ticket'.
Chris Butler
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I can't see anything in the CoC about advanced tickets or about reservation tickets ?Unfortunately the CoC does provide for requiring the physical reservation ticket. Without it, her ticket is rendered invalid.
That's not to say she's paid the correct fare and not breached any other terms, and may be able to prove that she holds the actual reservation.
Just another example of an Op revenue generating from penalties rather than protecting revenue
The online T&Cs (at least the ones I looked at) definitely say "ticket and reservation".
Ferret, me and you have discussed previously the convenience of thus very stupid 'bloke on the platform'. Whenever anyone is on the wrong train, it's usually because he's on duty, and he seems to work all around the network.
I suspect his whole existence is to add credence to the fact that someone has been caught out trying to bluff and advance etc. Just the other day I had a passenger travelling 3 hours late from Stansted. I went through the usual questions and ascertained that her flight wasn't 3 hours late, and there was no actual genuine prospect of the passenger catching their booked train. I was left with the answer 'I had to get that one as the other trains didn't have any advance tickets on'
I suspect his whole existence is to add credence to the fact that someone has been caught out trying to bluff and advance etc. Just the other day I had a passenger travelling 3 hours late from Stansted. I went through the usual questions and ascertained that her flight wasn't 3 hours late, and there was no actual genuine prospect of the passenger catching their booked train. I was left with the answer 'I had to get that one as the other trains didn't have any advance tickets on'
Tremendous! That'll be a new ticket then! I despair, I really do!
Still, the thing that's got me with the OP's case is that I've had one or two instances where somebody hasn't been able to present an orange slip with the reservation on it but have either printed out their confirmation email or had it saved on a laptop, which confirms they are reserved on my train. In the interests of fairness, I accepted the tickets and moved on. Obviously if I'd have come across somebody with a reservation but no ticket on the same train then that may have set alarm bells ringing (along with a couple of TIRs!) but as I didn't, I concluded that the customer had done nothing wrong, was travelling within the spirit of the T&Cs and therefore should not be chinged again. Why do I get the feeling that the OP was just unlucky to be travelling on that particular service, if you get my drift?
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