Unpaid Fare notice - but valid ticket!!

[MissMiaow]

Hi, I hope someone can help me..


I was travelling last week on a train from Leeds to Stevenage. Had purchased and collected the correct tickets for the train and accessed through barriers at the mainline station. However when the ticket collector came round, I had lost my ticket seat reservation (though I still had the valid ticket) and I was able to show him the booking reference on my Iphone which showed I was on the correct train. The conductor said I would have to buy a new ticket or issue a fare notice. He deemed me to be not communicating and gave me five minutes before he said he would call the Transport Police which he duly did. All in all this gentleman was incredibly rude, raised his voice and was thoroughly nasty. I am a secure woman in my thirties and I was actually reduced to a quivering, crying wreck at the end of the journey.
At one point tried to cajole some passengers opposite me into backing him up. I spoke to the Transport Police and on their advice gave him my details for the Unpaid fare notice. I now have to appeal by this Wednesday, and would really appreciate some advice on how best to put this forward, as I a) had a valid ticket for the train and am an honest passenger and do not believe I should have to pay another £92.50 for a train I had already paid for and b) believe this conductor acted entirely inappropriately for the situation and I would like to lodge a formal complaint.

If you have any advice .. please help! I need to send a letter by Wednesday at the latest.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If you don't have you reservation ticket on you, some TMs will put you through this. Shame you didn't post earlier, because you could ahev written to EC or ATOC about this, if you had valid prove of purchase on your iPhone then everything should be OK, but some are right jobsworths, as you diddn't have all documentation they will pull you up on that. Sorry, best of luck in whatever happens nonetheless.

 

[ainsworth74]

I am assuming you had an advance ticket, in which case you don't have a case the ticket clearly states that it is only valid with reservations. I'm sorry but your going to have to pay UPFN.

As for the guards conduct if you have an issue then I suggest you complain to East Coast.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I had a run-in with an EC guard once, quite nasty, but lets never mention that again. The TM technically is correct, but his allegded conduct leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[ainsworth74]

but his allegded conduct leaves a lot to be desired.

Indeed alleged conduct only, we don't know what happened as we only have one side of the story and presumably no-one on this board was there. I do wonder why people complain about staff conduct on here, there is nothing we can do about it! If they want it dealt with they should contact the TOC involved.

Going back to the OP, if you can find the seat reservation and then send both the ticket and reservation to the appeals board (keep a photocopy for yourself just in case) you might be able to get it overturned. Otherwise you don't really have a chance.

 

[tony_mac]

Obviously, we don't know what the conduct was actually like, we weren't there.
But we do know that the passenger completely refused to pay for the fare, despite not having a valid ticket for the journey.
I can understand a guard being a little short-tempered having to (repeatedly) deal with this situation. Perhaps he raised his voice because he was trying to do his job and was being ignored?

I really think that the train companies should try and protect both their staff and passengers from these unpleasant situations, the need for both ticket and reservation is unnecessarily prone to mistakes.

 

[yorkie]

I suggest you seek the advice of a good, experienced, qualified lawyer.

This is not legal advice but: if you do not pay the UPFN, what will likely happen (I base this on the experience of others who have been similarly chased for payment by EC) is a debt collection agency (Revenue Protection Support Services) will constantly pester you for payment, and add fees onto it. If you still don't pay them, they hand the matter to EC who then have to decide whether to prosecute.

EC are a relatively new company and proudly boast on posters that I have seen that all the cases they have taken to court for fare evasion, they have won. The question is: will they risk a case like this destroying that statement or not? They may seek advice of their lawyers if they are likely to win. I do not know what their lawyers will say.

If you call their bluff, they will have to decide whether or not to prosecute you for fare evasion. As you appear to have paid the correct fare, it would be, shall we say 'interesting' to see the outcome of such a case. However if you do decide to 'call their bluff' do not represent yourself, get a good lawyer.

Experience has shown that cases where you may expect the customer to win, but they have represented themselves, may well be won by the TOC. Yet cases where the customer seems to be up against it, but were represented by a good, experienced lawyer, the customer has occasionally won (I base this on the Northern examples, specifically the Guisely and Burley Park cases).

By the way, did you get the name of the guard? Newcastle depot is well known for the sort of attitude you describe (there's at least 10 of them I am reliably informed). Leeds rather less so. If you didn't note the name, it should appear on the UPFN. It is best not to post the name on this forum though.

Whatever happens please do keep us informed, I will be very interested to hear what happens.

If you wish to receive advice via PM, this can be done when you have made 5 posts (until then PMs are disabled unfortunately although an Admin can enable them for you on request).

But whatever advice you receive on here can never replace legal advice, only supplement it.

 

[scotsman]

Short answer: Yes. Unless you can find your reservations, you haven't a leg to stand on.

 

[yorkie]

Short answer: Yes. Unless you can find your reservations, you haven't a leg to stand on.

So you think that a prosecution for fare evasion will succeed, and that they won't look at the evidence regarding whether or not the correct fare had been paid, the passenger was on the correct train, etc? I'm not saying it won't succeed, just curious to know how you can be so confident. Presumably there has been a similar case for there to be such confidence? If so, are there any details? Please PM me you can't reveal on the forum.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you have any advice .. please help! I need to send a letter by Wednesday at the latest.

From what I can gather, if you do get a letter to them within the allotted time, it extends the time at which they start adding fees. However based on a case I was made of (which the passenger won) the debt collection company does not appear to take much notice of what these letters say, and I am not convinced anything you say will make any difference to them. They are instructed to peruse it vigorously. My advice would be, write the letter to them, but also at the same time also write directly to East Coast.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree with those above who have said that, by not being able to produce the correct tickets when requested, then you were dealt with correctly.
Sorry.

But I can also agree with those who give hope to a successful appeal. The factors which would help me to decide your prospects of success are:
- a) have you since found the "missing" reservation portion of your tickets?
- b) have you a print out from however you booked the tickets which identifies the ticket portion you still have and also identifies the train you were travelling on?
- c) can you prove that the train you were tavelling on was the train you were booked on? (that would require you to have either a) or b) which identifies the specific train and the Notice given to you which identifies the same train)?
- d) do you also still have the ticket portion which you had not lost?

If you have a) or b) and d), and also can prove c), and you have the time and enthusiasm and commitment to pursue the matter, then I'd agree with yorkie and those others who suggest resisting (with professional, legal help). (But is it worth it?). Otherwise, I'd agree with Matt, ainsworth and scotsman that you would be better off just paying the cost of not having all your tickets when required. (and just let the incident pass as quickly as you can).

I shall not comment on your remarks about staff conduct

 

[penaltyfines]

Call me old-fashioned, but I thought train companies want people to pay for travelling on their trains.

When people don't pay, or they suspect they haven't paid, they PF/UPFN them.

Sure - PF the hell out of people that fare evade, take them to the cleaners.

But if you genuinely did pay the correct fare for your journey (and can prove, be it the receipt etc), then cancel the PF/UPFN - minus admin fees if required.

Of course the NR CoC allows it, no question of that - but why charge people if they can prove they paid? It's not protecting revenue, it's penalising people. The banks were told that contractually it was fine, but it was unfair contract terms (granted they won, but on a loophole). Maybe NR should be looked at the in the same way!

 

[Chris Butler]

This is not as obvious to me as it seems to be to most others. The terms of a Advanced ticket require you to have a "ticket and a reservation" for the train.

A ticket is a physical thing, a piece of paper. It is the evidence that the fare was paid.

A reservation is not a physical thing. She had a reservation. What she did not have was the physical evidence of the reservation, the so-called reservation ticket. Elsewhere on the EC web site it says you should have the "reservation ticket"with you when you travel with a Saver, but the T&Cs mention only the reservation.

Unless I'm missing something, she is OK.

 

[penaltyfines]

This is not as obvious to me as it seems to be to most others. The terms of a Advanced ticket require you to have a "ticket and a reservation" for the train.

A ticket is a physical thing, a piece of paper. It is the evidence that the fare was paid.

A reservation is not a physical thing. She had a reservation. What she did not have was the physical evidence of the reservation, the so-called reservation ticket. Elsewhere on the EC web site it says you should have the "reservation ticket"with you when you travel with a Saver, but the T&Cs mention only the reservation.

Unless I'm missing something, she is OK.

Unfortunately the CoC does provide for requiring the physical reservation ticket. Without it, her ticket is rendered invalid.

That's not to say she's paid the correct fare and not breached any other terms, and may be able to prove that she holds the actual reservation.

Just another example of an Op revenue generating from penalties rather than protecting revenue

 

[Ferret]

I suggest you seek the advice of a good, experienced, qualified lawyer.

This is not legal advice but: if you do not pay the UPFN, what will likely happen (I base this on the experience of others who have been similarly chased for payment by EC) is a debt collection agency (Revenue Protection Support Services) will constantly pester you for payment, and add fees onto it. If you still don't pay them, they hand the matter to EC who then have to decide whether to prosecute.

EC are a relatively new company and proudly boast on posters that I have seen that all the cases they have taken to court for fare evasion, they have won. The question is: will they risk a case like this destroying that statement or not? They may seek advice of their lawyers if they are likely to win. I do not know what their lawyers will say.

If you call their bluff, they will have to decide whether or not to prosecute you for fare evasion. As you appear to have paid the correct fare, it would be, shall we say 'interesting' to see the outcome of such a case. However if you do decide to 'call their bluff' do not represent yourself, get a good lawyer.

Experience has shown that cases where you may expect the customer to win, but they have represented themselves, may well be won by the TOC. Yet cases where the customer seems to be up against it, but were represented by a good, experienced lawyer, the customer has occasionally won (I base this on the Northern examples, specifically the Guisely and Burley Park cases).

By the way, did you get the name of the guard? Newcastle depot is well known for the sort of attitude you describe (there's at least 10 of them I am reliably informed). Leeds rather less so. If you didn't note the name, it should appear on the UPFN. It is best not to post the name on this forum though.

Whatever happens please do keep us informed, I will be very interested to hear what happens.

If you wish to receive advice via PM, this can be done when you have made 5 posts (until then PMs are disabled unfortunately although an Admin can enable them for you on request).

But whatever advice you receive on here can never replace legal advice, only supplement it.

I think a letter to East Coast Customer Relations is required here. If the OP can prove she was travelling on her booked train then that should be reason enough to drop the UFN. At the very least it is worth a try to see what they say. Submit all the documentary evidence (I assume you have kept a copy on your iPhone!) and let us know what comes back!

As for taking cases to Court, TOCs only proceed with the ones they are thoroughly confident of winning. This is self-evident from the fact that EC have won 100% of their cases to date! In this case, the difficulty will arise from needing to convince a Court that the OP did not have a valid ticket. Again, this does not class as legal advice, merely an opinion, but my opinion is that the chances of EC winning their case here are not high enough to risk losing their 100% record, with all the implications for Judicial Precedent etc.

 

[wibble]

Personally, I think the guard should've used a bit more discretion. If the CTR on the ticket matches the e-mailed booking confirmation, that should be acceptable.

There is nothing stopping the guard from calling EC Telesales to confirm the customer's on the correct train.

 

[moonrakerz]

My dog ate the reservation ticket .................

 

[jon0844]

What was your dog doing on that train?

 

[MikeWh]

I hesitated to post this last night but I think it is relevant. I have examined the tickets I last used when travelling from Crayford to Peterborough. I can see why there is a need to have both ticket(s) and reservation because there isn't enough room on the ticket to include the train time and seat number(s). I have also examined the email confirmation that I received when booking the tickets which I assume is the same thing that the OP showed the TM on her iphone. Excluding the adverts, this is what mine said:

Booking confirmation

Dear Mr Wh******,

With guaranteed site security you can be assured that your payment has been securely processed. Your booking details are as follows – please take a moment to check the information is correct.


Your confirmation number is: 3WNXW6R5

Journey: 1 Crayford to Peterborough @ £30.60
ADVANCE £15.30 (1 @ £8.25, 3 @ £2.35)
With 1 Family & Friends railcard(s)
Remember to bring the railcard(s) for the journey
ADVANCE £15.30 (1 @ £8.25, 3 @ £2.35)
With 1 Family & Friends railcard(s)
Remember to bring the railcard(s) for the journey
Your Payment Card ****XXXX has been charged £30.60
Our terms and conditions and the National Conditions of Carriage apply to this booking and are available at www.eastcoast.co.uk. Please remember to arrive in good time to catch your train, doors close up to 2 minutes before departure.

Journey: 1 Crayford to Peterborough
Ticket type: EC Advance Valid only on your chosen service. Not refundable. Changeable prior to date of travel for a fee.
Route: Via East Coast & other TOC connecting services.
Outward journey: 2 Sep 2010
departs Crayford at 08:54 travel by Train service provider Southeastern to station London Bridge arrives 09:23
departs London Bridge at 09:33 travel by London Underground to station London Kings Cross arrives at 09:54
departs London Kings Cross at 10:10 travel by Train service provider East Coast to station Peterborough arrives 10:56 ( seats reserved: Coach: F Seats: 69A, 70A, 71A, 72A )

Ticket type: EC Advance Valid only on your chosen service. Not refundable. Changeable prior to date of travel for a fee.
Route: Via East Coast & other TOC connecting services.
Return journey: 2 Sep 2010
departs Peterborough at 16:19 travel by Train service provider East Coast to station London Kings Cross arrives 17:15 ( seats reserved: Coach: F Seats: 63A, 64A, 65A, 66A )

departs London Kings Cross at 17:30 travel by London Underground to station London Bridge arrives at 17:51
departs London Bridge at 18:10 travel by Train service provider Southeastern to station Crayford arrives 18:36

Ticket Collection
This is not a valid ticket for travel.
You have chosen to collect your tickets from Crayford. Your Booking Reference is 3WNXW6R5
Please remember to collect all coupons including your tickets, receipt and any seat reservations.

To collect your tickets, you must have both the credit/debit card used to purchase the tickets and your ticket booking reference. If you do not have them, a new ticket at the full fare will have to be bought to travel.
Please note that if you are starting your journey at an unmanned station without a self service ticket machine, and have selected to collect your tickets from an alternative station, you must collect your tickets before you travel. You are not permitted to travel to that station using the booking reference or confirmation email for this booking to collect your tickets.



Best regards,

Your East Coast team

Note: I have blanked out the four digits of my credit card number with Xs even though on their own they would be of no use.

You can see that the email contains ALL the relevant details, including the seat numbers (was the OP actually sitting in the right seat?) and also the customers name and part of their credit card number (did the OP have that credit card with her?).

I would strongly echo the advice of yorkie about getting a lawyer to offer specific advice and potentially represent her, but my gut feeling FWIW is that East Coast would find it difficult to convince a judge just what it had lost out on financially.

 

[jon0844]

Technically, failing to show a ticket is the 'offence' but if you could show the above then I'd expect discretion to be used - especially if you were sitting in those seats (but, if the seat reservation ticket was lost then perhaps the OP wasn't as they wouldn't have known WHERE to sit).

But, sitting in the wrong seats (but on the right train) and being made to buy a new ticket may not impress a judge even if it is 'legal'. This is one of those cases where EC (or any TOC) is highly unlikely to take it to court - but I am not a lawyer either.

In my own personal circumstances, I've been asked to show (and had accepted) a Gold Record card to prove the validity of an Oyster card when staff haven't had the means to read it. It clearly says not valid for travel, but it has always been deemed acceptable. I've also shown this to get discounted rail tickets.

I am sure that showing a detailed reservation email (such as above) would provide the same information (perhaps more) than the paper ticket itself. Thus, the TM would have been able to verify the information, endorse the ticket and move on.

If EC boasts of a 100% track record in court, then they'll not want to risk denting it over something like this. In fact, I'd hope that they are actually fair and simply apologise.

Now, playing devil's advocate for a moment, I will emphasise that this is based on the reservation email proving that the OP was on the correct train and wasn't in fact just trying it on, having missed an earlier train or something.

 

[penaltyfines]

I've been asked to show (and had accepted) a Gold Record card to prove the validity of an Oyster card when staff haven't had the means to read it.

If they haven't got the means to read it, that's their problem - they have to presume it's valid

 

[route:oxford]

I am a secure woman in my thirties and I was actually reduced to a quivering, crying wreck at the end of the journey

You're not secure if you're quivering and crying over a rail fare.

 

[MissMiaow]

My goodness and thankyou for all your responses! One vasoconstrictor question though: should I pay the monies to RPSS now or state in my letters that as I am disputing I will wait to see what the outcome is? It does state on the upfn that appealing doesn't negate the fact that you have to pay within 10 days..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry that was supposed to be basic not vasoconstrictor ! Writing this response on my phone and it's still new to me!

 

[jon0844]

You're not secure if you're quivering and crying over a rail fare.

I must admit that this bit did set alarm bells ringing. It's the same sort of thing said by the wheelchair user v Northern Rail and look how that ended up!

Yes, you might be angry. Yes, you could be shaking... but anything beyond that sounds like an attempt to get sympathy and these things always make me suspicious.

But, I must try and remember to give the benefit of the doubt - even though we've only got one side of the story.

 

[Capybara]

I dunno. Anyone who can use the word 'vasoconstrictror' is OK by me.

 

[MikeWh]

should I pay the monies to RPSS now or state in my letters that as I am disputing I will wait to see what the outcome is? It does state on the upfn that appealing doesn't negate the fact that you have to pay within 10 days..

I think this bit of Yorkie's second post answers what you ask:

From what I can gather, if you do get a letter to them within the allotted time, it extends the time at which they start adding fees. However based on a case I was made [aware?] of (which the passenger won) the debt collection company does not appear to take much notice of what these letters say, and I am not convinced anything you say will make any difference to them. They are instructed to peruse it vigorously. My advice would be, write the letter to them, but also at the same time also write directly to East Coast.

I can't stress enough the need to get proper advice, and that advice should tell you how to proceed initially.

It would help some of us if you could clarify some of our assumptions. Was the iphone message like the one I posted above, were you in the right seat, did you have the credit card, have you subsequently found the reservation?

I hope this helps.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

be interesting to see how they would handle a mobitix... as the 'ticket' is sent as a picture message to the phone, so no way of marking or clipping it! Not seen one for a while but I believe it shows the seat number as well.

 

[radamfi]

I see no benefit to East Coast (or any TOC) acting in this manner where there has been no evidence of fraud. Presumably the OP will no longer travel by train on this route so East Coast may well have lost hundreds or even thousands of pounds in future revenue. Instead, damage to the environment may be caused by extra car travel. Everyone loses.

 

[Oswyntail]

... a picture message to the phone, so no way of marking or clipping it! ...

Dunno - a quick hole punch through the mobile screen

 

[wibble]

be interesting to see how they would handle a mobitix... as the 'ticket' is sent as a picture message to the phone, so no way of marking or clipping it! Not seen one for a while but I believe it shows the seat number as well.

When Mobitix are scanned, they can be checked against the database of booked tickets (via GSM or WiFi) and can be 'clipped' electonically to stop them being used more than once.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Dunno - a quick hole punch through the mobile screen

Should be easy enough with an iPhone!

 

[Flamingo]

The general view of most guards I work with is that advanced tickets are a pain in the **** and as soon as they are got rid of the better, as they are a ready-made source of conflict.

Regarding the missing reservation, I see several every day that are missing their reservation. I usually ring telesales, (although in no way obliged to) depending on time of day, and mobile-phone signal.

Very few that I ring about are actually on the correct train. Draw what conclusions you wish to about how much sympathy will be given when someone says "I don't have the reservation". The assumption (on previous experience) is that they are probably on the wrong train.

Some people genuinely cry, some people switch on the taps, not necessarily in fear, sometimes in anger or frustration that they are not getting their own way, sometimes as a mechanism to elicit sympathy as "the nasty man is being horrible to poor little me and I'm special".

Just because someone is not giving the answer that you want, it does not mean they are being rude.

The above is just some general points of view from the guards perspective.

Regarding the UPFN, send off a copy of the seat reservation (or e-mail) along with the UPFN, and explain that you were on the booked train, see how it goes.

If you were not on the booked train, or have no evidence, then pay it before admin charges get added.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I see no benefit to East Coast (or any TOC) acting in this manner where there has been no evidence of fraud. Presumably the OP will no longer travel by train on this route so East Coast may well have lost hundreds or even thousands of pounds in future revenue. Instead, damage to the environment may be caused by extra car travel. Everyone loses.

How do you know there is no evidence of fraud? How do you know the OP will not travel by train? :roll:

If the correct revenue is not paid, eventually the cost has to be borne by the taxpayer - the everybody DOES lose out.