Why no electrification for East West Rail?

[Class360/1]

As East West RAil will facilitate intercity services, it seems stupid that the government doesnt want to electrify the line when it first opens- i think they are using this as an excuse so they dont have to electrify the line and 'hide it under the carpet'. Also, electrifying and railway before it reopens saves money. For example on the east Suffolk line they upgraded the sign system and reinstated a passing loop, saving some 40 million quid.

 

[swt_passenger]

It doesn’t ”facilitate intercity services”, or even inter-regional services, since the 2016 review. So thats not really connected to why it isn’t being wired. But the decision not to wire EWR has been discussed on and off for the last few years in the main EWR thread.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

In the words of ABBA - Money, Money, Money

 

[D365]

Discontinuous electrification is the best we can hope for at this time.

 

[PTR 444]

It doesn’t ”facilitate intercity services”, or even inter-regional services.

Surely Oxford to Cambridge would be considered inter-regional at least, and could even pass for intercity if it used appropriate rolling stock.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely Oxford to Cambridge would be considered inter-regional at least, and could even pass for intercity if it used appropriate rolling stock.

Well yes, but it hasn‘t been given the go ahead yet, has it. But using most normal definitions it’s extremely likely to ever be true “intercity”.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well yes, but it hasn‘t been given the go ahead yet, has it. But using most normal definitions it’s extremely likely to ever be true “intercity”.

It's a regional express service. But I totally agree, not wiring it on construction is absolutely nuts. It'll cost much more and cause far more disruption to do it later.

 

[Bevan Price]

As East West RAil will facilitate intercity services, it seems stupid that the government doesnt want to electrify the line when it first opens- i think they are using this as an excuse so they dont have to electrify the line and 'hide it under the carpet'

It is because DfT / civil service are involved, and they only seem to consider short term financial situations, not sensible long-term considerations.

 

[adrock1976]

Imagine this scenario.

What if the local councils of Oxford, Bletchley (and MK), Bedford, and Cambridge all pass a motion to have no more diesel trains in their areas after 2025?

This would make the DfT and Central Government look silly and incompetent.

 

[JonathanH]

What if the local councils of Oxford, Bletchley (and MK), Bedford, and Cambridge all pass a motion to have no more diesel trains in their areas after 2025?

Do they even have that power? I'd imagine they don't - ie they can pass a motion to say what they like but it has no legal effect.

 

[Domh245]

Do they even have that power? I'd imagine they don't.

And if they did, unless they plan to (part-)fund the electrification (and new trains to use it) then the obvious outcome is no more trains serving them, rather than forcing the government's hand! Oxford would be particularly badly affected with GWR and chiltern services

 

[Class360/1]

Imagine this scenario.

What if the local councils of Oxford, Bletchley (and MK), Bedford, and Cambridge all pass a motion to have no more diesel trains in their areas after 2025?

This would make the DfT and Central Government look silly and incompetent.

Exactly

 

[Ianno87]

As East West RAil will facilitate intercity services, it seems stupid that the government doesnt want to electrify the line when it first opens- i think they are using this as an excuse so they dont have to electrify the line and 'hide it under the carpet'

I smell a classic case of "get it built for this price, or there won't be a railway at all".

 

[Class360/1]

I smell a classic case of "get it built for this price, or there won't be a railway at all".

I suppose an unelectrified railway is better than no railway

 

[Bald Rick]

Imagine this scenario.

What if the local councils of Oxford, Bletchley (and MK), Bedford, and Cambridge all pass a motion to have no more diesel trains in their areas after 2025?

This would make the DfT and Central Government look silly and incompetent.

It would make themselves look silly and incompetent. They might as well pass a motion forbidding the Swiss Navy entering their areas.

 

[Class 170101]

I smell a classic case of "get it built for this price, or there won't be a railway at all".

or a political opportunity to build the railway open for a few years then another PR opportunity to electrify it.

 

[Hardcastle]

I personally think we should get the line reopened first they worry about the rest it's taken long enough to get not very far with this as it is.

 

[D365]

I personally think we should get the line reopened first they worry about the rest it's taken long enough to get not very far with this as it is.

Eh? It’s under construction. Putting electrification engineers on the job shouldn’t divert from other resources.

 

[Ianno87]

Imagine this scenario.

What if the local councils of Oxford, Bletchley (and MK), Bedford, and Cambridge all pass a motion to have no more diesel trains in their areas after 2025?

This would make the DfT and Central Government look silly and incompetent.

It would make themselves look silly and incompetent. They might as well pass a motion forbidding the Swiss Navy entering their areas.

Plus the obvious statement that those areas are served by diesel services that don't touch East West Rail (e.g. Cross Country) which would be rather stuffed by such legislation.

 

[WAO]

East West Rail, the Oxford - Cambridge (eventually) axis, with or without electrification, is a classic UK case of government money following privileged lobbies and property developers rather than economic need. We are getting along without it at the moment and the justifying developments may never take place.

There is far greater need to electrify the West Midlands - East Midlands, or the West Yorkshire - South Yorkshire axes, not mentioning the Trans-Pennine routes, where there are existing proven large flows of traffic between major population centres, important to the local economies.

I live in the Thames Valley and would benefit from East - West Rail. It still a bad idea.

WAO

 

[Class360/1]

East West Rail, the Oxford - Cambridge (eventually) axis, with or without electrification, is a classic UK case of government money following privileged lobbies and property developers rather than economic need. We are getting along without it at the moment and the justifying developments may never take place.

There is far greater need to electrify the West Midlands - East Midlands, or the West Yorkshire - South Yorkshire axes, not mentioning the Trans-Pennine routes, where there are existing proven large flows of traffic between major population centres, important to the local economies.

I live in the Thames Valley and would benefit from East - West Rail. It still a bad idea.

WAO

I agree, there are mass commuter lines in west midlands, such as the snow hill lines that need electrifying- what we really need is a MASS electrification scheme- like Scotland. Evershot Rail Group, Network Rail both want more electrification, but the governemtn is not doing that atm

 

[Energy]

Evershot Rail Group, Network Rail both want more electrification, but the governemtn is not doing that atm

Eversholt Rail doesn't really influence electrification that much, NR wants electrification but unfortunately it has to go through the DfT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

East West Rail, the Oxford - Cambridge (eventually) axis, with or without electrification, is a classic UK case of government money following privileged lobbies and property developers rather than economic need. We are getting along without it at the moment and the justifying developments may never take place.

It's justified without them - the huge amount of east-west commuting in the Home Counties justifies it.

 

[WAO]

Not compared to the Midland and Northern connurbations.

Oxford, MK, Bedford etc are all minor towns in rural hinterlands with scarcely a through A class road to connect them.

The UK is more than the Home Counties (and my family comes from Newton Longville).

Priorities.

WAO

 

[Ianno87]

Oxford, MK, Bedford etc are all minor towns in rural hinterlands with scarcely a through A class road to connect them.

That statement, quite simply, is inaccurate. Suggest you occasionally visit these places and understand their growing employment centres and commuting belts.

 

[WAO]

I am familiar with them, often working in Oxford.

I am also familiar with the connurbations I mentioned and their present (not hypothetical) transport needs.

There is no comparison.

WAO

 

[Ianno87]

I am familiar with them, often working in Oxford.

I am also familiar with the connurbations I mentioned and their present (not hypothetical) transport needs.

There is no comparison.

WAO

There is nothing hypothetical about Cambridge having 1.41 jobs per head of population (https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/reports/lmp/la/1946157205/report.aspx), which clearly drives quite a significant inward transport need.

Or 1.21 for Milton Keynes (https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/reports/lmp/la/1946157283/report.aspx?pc=MK9 1EN#tabjobs)

Or 1.33 for Oxford (https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/reports/lmp/la/1946157324/report.aspx?town=oxford#tabjobs)

All far above the national average.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oxford, MK, Bedford etc are all minor towns in rural hinterlands with scarcely a through A class road to connect them.

As @Ianno87 stated, there is literally not a single grain of truth in that sentence. Well, OK, I'll give you that they (like most of the South East outside the M25) have a quite rural hinterland, but that is actually a good case for rail rather than bus. The North is much more populated and so things are closer together.

By the time the presently planned MK expansion is completed - and remember you build railways for the long term, not for next week - it will have a larger population than greater Edinburgh and as such will be the 14th largest built-up area in the UK. That is not a "minor town", that is a major city (whether it might happen to have city status or not is neither here nor there, functionally it will be one).

Oxford (pop 171,380 according to Wiki) and Bedford (106,940) are also not "minor towns".

And yes, there are A-roads connecting them.

As for the TPE issue, what about Northern Powerhouse Rail? It's not one or the other, we can have both!

 

[WAO]

Perhaps we should stick to objective comments rather than emotive "grain of truth" ripostes.

Greater Manchester (pop 2.8M) has as one of its minor towns,Wigan (OS: SD582053). This has a population greater than Oxford and Bedford combined. GM also has similar towns such as Bolton, Bury, Rochdale, Oldham, Stockport and many other dense urban areas. It would be tedious to list the other major UK urban areas.

The case for rail versus bus is based on capacity not distance, hence the prior rail need of the regional cities and the suitability of bus services for rural areas.

If the progression of Northern Powerhouse and Midlands Engine were speedy as the need is present rather than projected then I would happily support East-West Rail and its electrification. As we can't even see Lostock Jn to Wigan wired, I contend that priorities are wrong and ask why?

WAO

 

[Ianno87]

Perhaps we should stick to objective comments rather than emotive "grain of truth" ripostes.

Greater Manchester (pop 2.8M) has as one of its minor towns,Wigan (OS: SD582053). This has a population greater than Oxford and Bedford combined. GM also has similar towns such as Bolton, Bury, Rochdale, Oldham, Stockport and many other dense urban areas. It would be tedious to list the other major UK urban areas.

The case for rail versus bus is based on capacity not distance, hence the prior rail need of the regional cities and the suitability of bus services for rural areas.

If the progression of Northern Powerhouse and Midlands Engine were speedy as the need is present rather than projected then I would happily support East-West Rail and its electrification. As we can't even see Lostock Jn to Wigan wired, I contend that priorities are wrong and ask why?

WAO

You appear to be listing a load of places in Greater Manchester that are all already connected to each other by rail.

Oxford, MK, Bedford and Cambridge are not, and (using facts, not emotions) have an increasing level of necessary inward commuting from their hinterlands, with a low availability of housing relative to available employment.