CrossCountry New and Extended Services

[James Kevill]

If CrossCountry has all of the 34 Class 220 Voyagers and 44 Class 221 Super Voyagers, it would be enough to make a new services and extend some of the existing services.

Here's the list of the service that I made:

InterCity Services
Plymouth to Edinburgh Waverley
Reading to Newcastle Central
Bournemouth to Edinburgh Waverley
Bournemouth to Manchester Piccadilly
Bristol Temple Meads to Manchester Piccadilly
Plymouth to Chester
Bournemouth to Chester
Plymouth to Nottingham
Bournemouth to Nottingham


Extended Services
Glasgow Central from Edinburgh Waverley
Glasgow Queen Street from Edinburgh Waverley
Dundee from Edinburgh Waverley
Aberdeen from Edinburgh Waverley
Perth from Edinburgh Waverley
Inverness from Edinburgh Waverley
Edinburgh Waverley from Newcastle Central
Southampton Central from Reading
Guildford from Reading
Gatwick Airport from Reading
Brighton from Reading
Portsmouth & Southsea from Reading
Portsmouth Harbor from Reading
Poole from Bournemouth
Weymouth from Bournemouth
Manchester Victoria from Manchester Piccadilly
Liverpool Lime Street from Manchester Piccadilly
Preston from Manchester Piccadilly
Blackpool North from Manchester Piccadilly
Lancaster from Manchester Piccadilly
Carlisle from Manchester Piccadilly
Glasgow Central from Manchester Piccadilly
Edinburgh Waverley from Manchester Piccadilly
Exeter St. Davids from Bristol Temple Meads
Newquay from from Bristol Temple Meads
Paighton from Bristol Temple Meads
Penzance from Plymouth
Penzance from Bristol Temple Meads
Plymouth from Bristol Temple Meads
Bath Spa from Bristol Temple Meads
Cardiff Central from Bristol Temple Meads
Swansea from Bristol Temple Meads
Wrexham General from Chester
Llandudno from Chester
Bangor from Chester
Holyhead from Chester

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

If CrossCountry has all of the 34 Class 220 Voyagers and 44 Class 221 Super Voyagers, it would be enough to make a new services and extend some of the existing services.

Here's the list of the service that I made:

InterCity Services
Plymouth to Edinburgh Waverley
Reading to Newcastle Central
Bournemouth to Edinburgh Waverley
Bournemouth to Manchester Piccadilly
Bristol Temple Meads to Manchester Piccadilly
Plymouth to Chester
Bournemouth to Chester
Plymouth to Nottingham
Bournemouth to Nottingham


Extended Services
Glasgow Central from Edinburgh Waverley
Glasgow Queen Street from Edinburgh Waverley
Dundee from Edinburgh Waverley
Aberdeen from Edinburgh Waverley
Perth from Edinburgh Waverley
Inverness from Edinburgh Waverley
Edinburgh Waverley from Newcastle Central
Southampton Central from Reading
Guildford from Reading
Gatwick Airport from Reading
Brighton from Reading
Portsmouth & Southsea from Reading
Portsmouth Harbor from Reading
Poole from Bournemouth
Weymouth from Bournemouth
Manchester Victoria from Manchester Piccadilly
Liverpool Lime Street from Manchester Piccadilly
Preston from Manchester Piccadilly
Blackpool North from Manchester Piccadilly
Lancaster from Manchester Piccadilly
Carlisle from Manchester Piccadilly
Glasgow Central from Manchester Piccadilly
Edinburgh Waverley from Manchester Piccadilly
Exeter St. Davids from Bristol Temple Meads
Newquay from from Bristol Temple Meads
Paighton from Bristol Temple Meads
Penzance from Plymouth
Penzance from Bristol Temple Meads
Plymouth from Bristol Temple Meads
Bath Spa from Bristol Temple Meads
Cardiff Central from Bristol Temple Meads
Swansea from Bristol Temple Meads
Wrexham General from Chester
Llandudno from Chester
Bangor from Chester
Holyhead from Chester

1. As per current
2. As per current
3. Not enough capacity north of York or south of Reading or at New Street (until HS2)
4. As per current
5. As per current
6. Why?
7. Not enough capacity at Birmingham (until HS2)
8. Not enough capacity at Bournemouth or south of Reading
9. How much capacity is there?
10. No capacity at Bournemouth

Extended:

1. Not much capacity
2. Not much capacity at Queen Street
3. Fine
4. Fine don’t need both 3, 4, 5 and 6
5. No capacity north of Newcastle
6. No capacity
7. Not much capacity
8. BML has not much capacity
9. Definitely Not
10. Little capacity
11. Same as 10
12. Might have some capacity, not sure
13. Could just extend 12
14. No capacity as many people have explained
15. Same as 14
16. Potentially possible
17. Do you need pots Preston and a Blackpool Service? Does Blackpool need a XC service. No capacity particularly post-hs2
18. As per 17
19. 
    
20. 
    
21. No capacity
22. No capacity

 

[JamesT]

Surely the priority would be to add capacity to their existing services by doubling up more Voyagers rather than trying to send them further afield?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Surely the priority would be to add capacity to their existing services by doubling up more Voyagers rather than trying to send them further afield?

Yes I agree, besides not much capacity on most of those proposals

 

[JonathanH]

One of the points to be made is that the off-pattern Cross Country in the pre-privatisation area were often about filling gaps in other service groups - eg the Cross Country train provided additional capacity replacing the standard operator on the route at a marginal time - there is still a bit of this today - eg Cross Country provide extra morning capacity from Cornwall into Plymouth using a unit that would otherwise be at Laira.

Nowadays, the incumbent operators have generally provided for the required flows and there is no need or space for Cross Country to operate these extensions. It just isn't part of the railway we operate now.

Moreover, it is better to have a fixed service from Plymouth to Leeds every hour than to send the train to Chester, Nottingham and Leeds on a three-hour cycle.

There is no need for Cross Country to operate outside the fairly rational network it currently operates and 20 extra Voyagers isn't going to be enough for expansion plans in any case.

 

[greatvoyager]

Considering everything it probably would make sense to focus on increasing capacity on existing routes.

 

[James Kevill]

If CrossCountry hasn't got enough of the Bombardier Voyager fleets, they could acquire 27 Class 222 Meridians to create more additional capacity.

 

[greatvoyager]

If CrossCountry hasn't got enough of the Bombardier Voyager fleets, they could acquire 27 Class 222 Meridians to create more additional capacity.

Would that be enough for all of the extensions suggested though?
Also, are the paths for the extensions possible?

 

[JonathanH]

If CrossCountry hasn't got enough of the Bombardier Voyager fleets, they could acquire 27 Class 222 Meridians to create more additional capacity.

There isn't any need. No matter how much people raise the idea of Cross Country expansion onto every conceivable extension, the DfT are never going to go for it.

 

[The Planner]

Where are all these extra paths coming from? Are they weird once every few hours services, as by my count you have got 5tph north of Reading?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is this the February edition of the XC fleet and network suggestion discussion already? Seems early this month.

Is it just yet another attempt to revert much of the XC network to the situation in about 2003?

 

[cle]

The main network and its symmetry works well. Any increases should be in the same spirit (having 3tph leave Birmingham in the X directions) - but pathing etc...

Hourly Soton extension seems an easy-ish one to speculate first, with nothing terminating at Reading.

A likely additional Birmingham-Manchester, maybe using Pendos, maybe suburban stock via Rugeley. The former, post-HS2 would keep some long trains serving the Stockport paths and some of the intermediate calls on today's London services. One via Wilmslow likely too. These are the majority of carriages/capacity Stoke - Manchester.

Liverpool and Chester routes to the South/SW seem more in the Welsh franchise's purview, as it stands!

 

[JonathanH]

A likely additional Birmingham-Manchester, maybe using Pendos, maybe suburban stock via Rugeley.

That move at Rugeley would be a major conflicting move right across the layout. I doubt it would be popular with the planners.

Besides, post-HS2 you would be need to maintain the Wolverhampton to Manchester link so running via Cannock probably isn't top of the list.

 

[cle]

That move at Rugeley would be a major conflicting move right across the layout. I doubt it would be popular with the planners.

Besides, post-HS2 you would be need to maintain the Wolverhampton to Manchester link so running via Cannock probably isn't top of the list.

Yes, it's a horrible move. But have you seen plans for Colwich post-HS2?

 

[HST43257]

What about:
— Plymouth to Scarborough - 1tph less towards NCL plus retaining LDS - SCA link if TPE SCA service goes via WKK as per my ideas. Newquay and Penzance summer extensions.
— Exeter to Man Pic - same as pre covid. Paignton summer extension.
— Bournemouth to Man Pic - same as pre covid
— Southampton to Edinburgh - Extensions on RDG - NCL to keep XC EDB service. Weymouth summer extension. Hourly GLC extension a potential but perhaps not.

No idea how many units needed. Will work out in due course.

 

[geordieblue]

What about:
— Plymouth to Scarborough - 1tph less towards NCL plus retaining LDS - SCA link if TPE SCA service goes via WKK as per my ideas. Newquay and Penzance summer extensions.
— Exeter to Man Pic - same as pre covid. Paignton summer extension.
— Bournemouth to Man Pic - same as pre covid
— Southampton to Edinburgh - Extensions on RDG - NCL to keep XC EDB service. Weymouth summer extension. Hourly GLC extension a potential but perhaps not.

No idea how many units needed. Will work out in due course.

Scarborough is a small town and, frankly, doesn't need an hourly Crosscountry service. An extreme case of the tail wagging the dog.

 

[Aictos]

Surely the priority would be to add capacity to their existing services by doubling up more Voyagers rather than trying to send them further afield?

Couldn't agree more, any extra capacity gained should be used to extend services to provide more seats.

 

[Bigman]

I would extend the Cardiff - Nottingham through to Leeds taking over from the current Northern service. Through service from Yorkshire to Wales at last.

 

[tetudo boy]

Here we go again...

 

[Ianno87]

I would extend the Cardiff - Nottingham through to Leeds taking over from the current Northern service. Through service from Yorkshire to Wales at last.

Which no passengers would use because it is so slow (and there aren't many passengers to begin with)

 

[quantinghome]

Far too complicated. This is what should happen:

All 220s, 221s and 222s to XC.

Double up all services, at least through the core zone bounded by Manchester, York, Reading and Bristol.

Only significant change to service pattern:

Change Cardiff-Nottingham to a Cardiff-Leeds voyager service. Leeds-Birmingham desperately needs to be half hourly and South Wales needs to be connected better to the North.

Consequently, move Birmingham-Nottingham to WMR, perhaps as a through service to Lichfield or Hereford to maintain cross-Birmingham links.

 

[HST43257]

Scarborough is a small town and, frankly, doesn't need an hourly Crosscountry service. An extreme case of the tail wagging the dog.

Less about the through service, just having 1 less ECML North service and keeping the Leeds to Scarborough route if TPE diverted their SCA service via WKK, which I’d like to see.

I would extend the Cardiff - Nottingham through to Leeds taking over from the current Northern service. Through service from Yorkshire to Wales at last.

So you’d have the Cardiff to Nottingham then call everywhere onto Sheffield then take the long route to Leeds? No thanks. Not worth it one bit. If you want a Cardiff to Yorkshire service then you get a new path, rather than going the (very) long way from Derby to Sheffield and the (fairly) long way from Sheffield to Leeds. Easily looking at 3 hours 15 from Leeds to Birmingham

 

[The Planner]

Consequently, move Birmingham-Nottingham to WMR, perhaps as a through service to Lichfield or Hereford to maintain cross-Birmingham links.

Yuck, that would be horrifically slow via Lichfield being stuck behind a cross city service.

 

[Bigman]

Good point about the long journey Ianno87. I like the subsequent idea of diverting the Cardiff to Nottingham to Leeds instead.

 

[Aictos]

Instead of extending to former Cross Country destinations why not just:

A. Keep the Pre Covid19 timetable but all trains lengthened to provide more seats in the core part of the XC network meaning people actually get a seat. You could also do this by using captive diagramming for Class 220/221 and 222 fleets although I will leave actual planning to those who use or are familiar with the services to how best do this.

B. If you really must change for changes sake, why not merge the Transpennine Express TOC into Cross Country keeping services as they are but under XC branding.

 

[The Planner]

Good point about the long journey Ianno87. I like the subsequent idea of diverting the Cardiff to Nottingham to Leeds instead.

So this would require a change at Derby? Doubt that would ever happen as there are serious aspirations to try and speed up Brum Nottingham.

 

[cle]

I can't see Cardiff - Nottingham - Leeds as being a great routing. Surely straight up via Derby as an additional path makes sense. Perhaps it could go via Barnsley to give there a long distance connection.

How about via Stockport

 

[quantinghome]

Yuck, that would be horrifically slow via Lichfield being stuck behind a cross city service.

Oops, I wrote Lichfield but meant Shrewsbury...

 

[bb21]

We do not need another thread.

Please make use of existing threads but there isn't really anything which has not been discussed before.