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The whole 175 fleet is being refurbished by Alstom at Widnes in TFW colours, the refurbs are to a high standard internally & externally. So doubt they will be leaving the franchise any time soon.
I'm guessing Alstom staff at Chester will be transferred to CAF when the 197's arrive, meaning there will be no dedicated maintenance facility for the 175's. Unless anything drastic happens with the introduction of the 197's, i can't see TfW keeping the 175's longer than they need to, or even being allowed to under the lease agreement. Unless of course a new Operator isn't found for them.
The plan for the new route introductions and frequency increases is accounted for in the new and current fleet plant, by which time both the 158's and 175's would have left. If anything it would make more sense to keep the 158's as they are compatible to the rest of the fleet (150's & 153s), as well as Machynlleth & Canton Depots being TfW employed rather than Alstom employed.
Slightly off topic but does anyone know if the 197's are compatible with 150's & 158s?
If one of the Manchester task forces plans comes to fruition and option (can’t remember it) northern could be a good shout for them to operate the half hourly ‘proposed’ Chester-Leeds and Wigan-Leeds with them still using Chester for heavy maintenance and Neville hill doing the rest. Allowing the 195’s to cover commuter 158 work allowing them to displace 156s in the NE
If the 197 order can be amended to make them 195s, so much the better, though it's almost certainly too late for anything like that - so just put in the correct interior layout for Northern and use them to replace the 150s.
The 197s are in most respects what the 195s should have been in the first place. Northern should have used them on locals stoppers rather than top-flight regional services and the Fainsa seats (both types) are awful. If it wasn't for the coupler incompatibility issue the 197s could in some respects have been called class 195/2 and 195/3.
Quite frankly, I would leave them on TfW's long distance services to Llandudno, Holyhead and Cardiff - where they belong - and send the appropriate quantity of 197s to Northern instead.
I agree, TfW should never have planned to off-lease them. What I would do is bring in 3 or 4 five-coach mark 4 sets and set out TfW's long-distance express services something like this:
Hourly Swansea - Manchester worked by the following:
2x 5 coach mark 4 diagrams
1x 4 coach mark 4 diagram
6/7x 5 coach class 175 diagrams (175/0 + 175/1)
Hourly Holyhead - Chester express with 3tpd going through to Cardiff and the rest to Crewe**
2x 4-coach mark 4 diagrams on the Cardiff services
4x class 175* on the Crewe** services
Hourly Cardiff Central - Carmarthen express via SDL with extensions to Fishguard (boat trains) and Milford Haven (roughly every 2 hours) - 5x class 175 diagrams*
Hourly Birmingham International - Aberystwyth with a portion for Pwllheli every 2hrs and Bangor/Wrexham/Chester in the others (formed of 158s)
Yes all three 4-coach mark 4 sets would be diagrammed for use, but the spare 5-coach set(s) could be used to cover a 4-coach set when it needs maintainance. There would also be an hourly Cardiff Central - Chester service stopping at all current stops using TfW's 3-car 170s (because they have 3 toilets, unlike a 197, and there aren't enough 175s). The stoppers to Llandudno (regardless of whether they come from Liverpool or Manchester) would be formed of pairs of 197s (either 4-cars or 5) because we have to do something with the dam things. If they weren't so set in their diesel ways I'd send them to Landore to create a Swansea area metro.
* Mix of lengths not determined
** I would rather these run fast to Manchester (Victoria unless more west-facing platforms are built at Picc.), but pathing could be difficult unless Northern takes over the stops to allow TfW to speed up and might need more units (which would mean more mark 4 sets because no spare units)
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The 197s have the same Sophia seats as the 800 series, so they're comfortable if you like those seats which personally I don't much. Less tables and legroom than a 175, so not as roomy, but more legroom than a 158 (the 158 beats them all in terms of number of table bays though).
The 197s are in most respects what the 195s should have been in the first place. Northern should have used them on locals stoppers rather than top-flight regional services and the Fainsa seats (both types) are awful. If it wasn't for the coupler incompatibility issue the 197s could in some respects have been called class 195/2 and 195/3.
I agree, TfW should never have planned to off-lease them. What I would do is bring in 3 or 4 five-coach mark 4 sets and set out TfW's long-distance express services something like this:
Hourly Swansea - Manchester worked by the following:
2x 5 coach mark 4 diagrams
1x 4 coach mark 4 diagram
6/7x 5 coach class 175 diagrams (175/0 + 175/1)
Hourly Holyhead - Chester express with 3tpd going through to Cardiff and the rest to Crewe**
2x 4-coach mark 4 diagrams on the Cardiff services
4x class 175* on the Crewe** services
Hourly Cardiff Central - Carmarthen express via SDL with extensions to Fishguard (boat trains) and Milford Haven (roughly every 2 hours) - 5x class 175 diagrams*
Hourly Birmingham International - Aberystwyth with a portion for Pwllheli every 2hrs and Bangor/Wrexham/Chester in the others (formed of 158s)
Yes all three 4-coach mark 4 sets would be diagrammed for use, but the spare 5-coach set(s) could be used to cover a 4-coach set when it needs maintainance. There would also be an hourly Cardiff Central - Chester service stopping at all current stops using TfW's 3-car 170s (because they have 3 toilets, unlike a 197, and there aren't enough 175s). The stoppers to Llandudno (regardless of whether they come from Liverpool or Manchester) would be formed of pairs of 197s (either 4-cars or 5) because we have to do something with the dam things. If they weren't so set in their diesel ways I'd send them to Landore to create a Swansea area metro.
* Mix of lengths not determined
** I would rather these run fast to Manchester (Victoria unless more west-facing platforms are built at Picc.), but pathing could be difficult unless Northern takes over the stops to allow TfW to speed up and might need more units (which would mean more mark 4 sets because no spare units)
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The 197s have the same Sophia seats as the 800 series, so they're comfortable if you like those seats which personally I don't much. Less tables and legroom than a 175, so not as roomy, but more legroom than a 158 (the 158 beats them all in terms of number of table bays though).
great plan but the you need consultations ect ( i believe) to downgrade the Milford haven to Manchester service as well as finding stock for howl Pembroke dock branch Milford haven branch and the Fishguard branch
great plan but the you need consultations ect ( i believe) to downgrade the Milford haven to Manchester service as well as finding stock for howl Pembroke dock branch Milford haven branch and the Fishguard branch
I didn't downgrade the Milford Haven to Manchester service, I just split it so you have to change at Cardiff and upgraded the Cardiff-Milford part to an express the the SDL instead of a detour into Swansea. I only listed the key mainline services, there are still a few 170s, lots of 197s (sadly), all the PRM 153s and possibly a few 158s for the other services. Unfortunately none of those are a great fit for the HOWL (except the 158s if any are spare, but they're not cleared for the HOWL) but it'd be a better outcome than virtually all long distance services being downgraded to 197s. Plus if this were to happen I'd envisage a new bi-mode fleet replacing the 158s in the early 2030s to facilitate wires to Shrewsbury and I'd tag on some units for the HOWL at the same time (ideally the self-power mode on these bi-modes would be battery or hydrogen meaning it would also be suitable for ScotRail's scenic lines with their 2035 decarbonisation target).
I didn't downgrade the Milford Haven to Manchester service, I just split it so you have to change at Cardiff and upgraded the Cardiff-Milford part to an express the the SDL instead of a detour into Swansea. I only listed the key mainline services, there are still a few 170s, lots of 197s (sadly), all the PRM 153s and possibly a few 158s for the other services. Unfortunately none of those are a great fit for the HOWL (except the 158s if any are spare, but they're not cleared for the HOWL) but it'd be a better outcome than virtually all long distance services being downgraded to 197s. Plus if this were to happen I'd envisage a new bi-mode fleet replacing the 158s in the early 2030s to facilitate wires to Shrewsbury and I'd tag on some units for the HOWL at the same time (ideally the self-power mode on these bi-modes would be battery or hydrogen meaning it would also be suitable for ScotRail's scenic lines with their 2035 decarbonisation target).
i do agree the 197s have faults chief amongst them being diesel only which with our 0 carbon target is rather silly then the whole seats i remain sceptical but open to being proven wrong as to their comfort
i do agree the 197s have faults chief amongst them being diesel only which with our 0 carbon target is rather silly then the whole seats i remain sceptical but open to being proven wrong as to their comfort
At least if they were bi-mode they'd be suitable for a Swansea metro that could be electrified later. Even as diesel-only, you could take 20 or so for the Llandudno stoppers and cascade them to GWR as 150 replacements since some of the GWR branches aren't recommended for wires even in the TDNS later but 77 on top of 50-odd 195s was just madness. Far too many DMUs with a life stretching beyond the zero-carbon deadline.
Do people from Pembrokeshire really want faster trains to Cardiff at the expense of not being able to get to Swansea without changing? There is a good reason why the trains go in and out of Swansea.
Do people from Pembrokeshire really want faster trains to Cardiff at the expense of not being able to get to Swansea without changing? There is a good reason why the trains go in and out of Swansea.
answer not really i think 1 direct train a day would be fine im local to Pembrokeshire and hardly go further than Swansea before making the change to the train i need
The 197s have the same Sophia seats as the 800 series, so they're comfortable if you like those seats which personally I don't much. Less tables and legroom than a 175, so not as roomy, but more legroom than a 158 (the 158 beats them all in terms of number of table bays though).
Interestingly the ATW 158 refurb sacrificed legroom for more tables - the as-built layout alternates tables (which get the window width plus both pillars) with 2 airline rows (which just get the window width as they need slightly less space), whereas the ATW layout has table bays adjacent to each other which means slightly less space.
Northern's refurb retains the original layout (near enough, give or take the provision of priority seats) but uses the 195-style ironing boards, as a result of which the legroom is superb.
175s (might as well be on topic) gained space by having fewer, wider bays but also by a clever seat design that suits blokes better than the original 158 seat or FISA LEAN by having a thick central support and "niches" at the sides.
Do people from Pembrokeshire really want faster trains to Cardiff at the expense of not being able to get to Swansea without changing? There is a good reason why the trains go in and out of Swansea.
Again (because this is the 175 topic, and because I had already spent enough time on that post) I only listed the long-distance mainline services. Note that my list didn't include anything at all for Pembroke Dock or the Heart Of Wales line; and that's not because I don't think they should have any trains at all. If you look at the Speculation-on-better-services-for-pembrokeshire topic as well you will see that I have 2tph from Whitland to Swansea in addition to the 1tph fast from Carmarthen to Cardiff. It's just that any service going into Swansea, from either direction, would terminate there.
Interestingly the ATW 158 refurb sacrificed legroom for more tables - the as-built layout alternates tables (which get the window width plus both pillars) with 2 airline rows (which just get the window width as they need slightly less space), whereas the ATW layout has table bays adjacent to each other which means slightly less space.
Northern's refurb retains the original layout (near enough, give or take the provision of priority seats) but uses the 195-style ironing boards, as a result of which the legroom is superb.
175s (might as well be on topic) gained space by having fewer, wider bays but also by a clever seat design that suits blokes better than the original 158 seat or FISA LEAN by having a thick central support and "niches" at the sides.
Did the ATW refurb change the seat pitch in the airline style seats, or is that still the same as the Northern units? If so a 175 with ironing boards would have mind-blowing legroom because I measured the seat pitch on an ATW 158 at 80cm and a 175 at 84cm. 197s are 82cm if I recall correctly.
Originally I thought they'd go to east-west rail as they were a mixture of 2 and 3 carriage units abd probably cheaper to lease and run than the class 185s.
I doubt it. Battery units need something to charge on, be that OHLE during layover or part of the route. Only a small part of the route will have that (between Bletchley and MKC and at Bedford station, though I forget if P1 is wired or not).
I'd say it's going to be either 175s or 185s we see on EWR when it opens, almost certainly the former. I'd expect Northern will probably grab the rest, as EWR won't need all of them.
I doubt it. Battery units need something to charge on, be that OHLE during layover or part of the route. Only a small part of the route will have that (between Bletchley and MKC and at Bedford station, though I forget if P1 is wired or not).
Nothing to say that Bletchley to Cambridge won’t be wired. This is the Speculative subforum, after all. I don’t see any way in which the government can defend opening EWR with diesel trains this decade.
Nothing to say that Bletchley to Cambridge won’t be wired. This is the Speculative subforum, after all. I don’t see any way in which the government can defend opening EWR with diesel trains this decade.
No. The whole point of EWR is Milton Keynes and connectivity around it as it grows, and the business development that will enable in what is known as the Oxford-Cambridge Arc, i.e. the area of the Home Counties that is between the two places.
There will be a market for travelling from Oxford to Cambridge, but it'll be a tiny minority of journeys.
No. The whole point of EWR is Milton Keynes and connectivity around it as it grows, and the business development that will enable in what is known as the Oxford-Cambridge Arc, i.e. the area of the Home Counties that is between the two places.
There will be a market for travelling from Oxford to Cambridge, but it'll be a tiny minority of journeys.
Bearing in mind recent announcements on commitment to funding Phase 2 of EWR, I’d say the chances of Bedford to Cambridge being canned are slim. As above, what would be the point in only committing to half of the project?
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