Speculation on better services for Pembrokeshire

[Anonymous10]

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No frequency improvement was promised for Milford Haven when the franchise went to KeolisAmey, so as far as we know it's staying at every 2hrs. It may well be that the 3-car section goes through, at least on some trips, although 1st class was only advertised from Manchester to Swansea. I think the number of 3-car units with first class does allow them to run through to Milford, or to fill in the gaps between the mark 4 sets on Holyhead-Cardiff, but not both.

Don't forget roughly 50% of the even hours had an Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury working added a few years ago, so the increase to hourly isn't a doubling in the frequency (although the COVID timetable did drop back to 0.5tph I think). In fact on Sundays wasn't it already an hourly service before COVID hit?

I think the only frequency increase planned on an existing route was Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth (filling in the few remaining gaps to get to hourly). The other boost was that the Liverpools were to be extended to Shrewsbury/Cardiff/Bangor* which gives an extra train between Cardiff and Chester and between Chester and Bangor.

*I'm aware that it's actually Liverpool-Llandudno with the current Manchesters diverted to Bangor

My personal opinion yes, but I'm not the only one to hold that opinion. Ian Walmsley in Modern Railways often writes that train seats need to be better.

Not that I'm aware of, but I'm not aware of any proof that there hasn't been a drop in patronage either. Plus we don't know how many passengers choose to travel by train because they want to and how many are 'distress purchases'.

Thank you. At least 99% of my rail travel is for leisure and I am displeased if I cannot see out.

Apart from Fishguard boat trains, Haverfordwest is probably the most important town in Pembrokeshire for through trains to/from Cardiff. Unfortunately Whitland to Tenby and back takes about an hour while Whitland to Milford Haven and back (with recovery time at Milford) takes about 1hr 15-20mins, so if you split at Whitland the units won't get back to Whitland at the same time.

haverfordwest is very important yes but tenby is also a massive tourist attraction with many visitors from South wales and Futher afield. if a direct link could be established between tenby and Cardiff at current frequency that would be very useful as if offered at competitive rates could take pressure off local roads increase day trips allow better connections from the west as well as many other advantages

 

[Envoy]

Apart from Fishguard boat trains, Haverfordwest is probably the most important town in Pembrokeshire for through trains to/from Cardiff. Unfortunately Whitland to Tenby and back takes about an hour while Whitland to Milford Haven and back (with recovery time at Milford) takes about 1hr 15-20mins, so if you split at Whitland the units won't get back to Whitland at the same time.

So why can’t the section that went from Whitland to Tenby just hang around for a bit before returning to Whitland to join the other bit that went to Milford Haven? If it is deemed that ‘hanging around’ is a waste of resources, why not send it a bit further down the Pembroke line to maybe Manorbier?

Last time I did the Tenby line, it was slow going from Whitland and I heard the clackity clack of jointed rail on wooden sleepers. I really do wonder how long it will be until some of these lines in the outback get long welded rail on concrete sleepers as surely, that would raise the speeds a bit? I presume that this track was laid in the days of steam? The bushes were also hitting the train near Saundersfoot.

 

[allaction]

Surely, Haverfordwest and Milford Haven deserve an hourly service? If they plan to stick with one train every other hour and that being a 2 car, then surely that will be inadequate? If that is the case, perhaps it is the 3 car section that should be sent west of Swansea? Of course, much depends on whether or not they bring into regular use the Swansea District Line - with a Parkway station near Morriston to encourage people off the M4 as well as serve the hospital via a bus link. With a raised speed limit, this could well become the fastest route from say Cardiff to Llanelli and beyond. So, the overall capacity in SW Wales clearly needs looking at.

Had the south Wales mainline been electrified as far as Swansea plus an intention to electrify Wolverhamton to Shrewsbury, I wonder if they still would have ordered a large fleet of diesel only DMU’s (!97’s)?

Please can someone in power put Pembrokeshire's Most-Used Line - to Pembroke Dock - down for an hourly service too?

 

[Anonymous10]

Please can someone in power put Pembrokeshire's Most-Used Line - to Pembroke Dock - down for an hourly service too?

we can only dream sadly its probably seen as to expensive as takes 45 mins to tenby and only that passing point so to allow for turn arounds pembroke dock would need platform 2 reinstalled and trains would likely need to hold at whitland

 

[Rhydgaled]

Please can someone in power put Pembrokeshire's Most-Used Line - to Pembroke Dock - down for an hourly service too?

No Pembrokeshire line is down for an hourly service yet, though I wonder if it might be discussed at the Regional Transport Conference taking place over the next two days.

So why can’t the section that went from Whitland to Tenby just hang around for a bit before returning to Whitland to join the other bit that went to Milford Haven? If it is deemed that ‘hanging around’ is a waste of resources, why not send it a bit further down the Pembroke line to maybe Manorbier?

The unit that went to Tenby wouldn't have terminated there; at 28mins to Tenby and 28mins back to Whitland you would have at most 4 minutes turn-round time at Tenby which I would think would be a performance risk. As Tenby is the only passing loop on the single line it has to pass the other train there meaning you can't really do anything else than have the unit get back to Whitland about an hour after it left.

Last time I did the Tenby line, it was slow going from Whitland and I heard the clackity clack of jointed rail on wooden sleepers. I really do wonder how long it will be until some of these lines in the outback get long welded rail on concrete sleepers as surely, that would raise the speeds a bit? I presume that this track was laid in the days of steam? The bushes were also hitting the train near Saundersfoot.

Given the density of stops between Whitland and Pembroke Dock I'm not sure how much scope there is to reach higher speeds even if the track was more modern. Also, at least west of Tenby, there are a number of level crossings where the train has to stop and sound the horn before proceeding over the crossing.

 

[fishwomp]

An hourly service is doable.. Whitland - Tenby is 28 mins (WTT), and Tenby-Pembroke D is 28 mins.

Two things to make this reliable:

1. signalling - cab-stuff as done on Aberystwyth/Pwllheli, instead of the driver operated token - which is a 3 minute job or so (part of the dwell time not included above).
2. replace stop-and-blow crossings with a 10 mph blow-and-go-straight-through - there are three of them on the Tenby-Pembroke side (Jameston, Manorbier Newton and Llanion) - probably saves a minute.

Perhaps it should remain a two hourly service, but save on the current unit / crew sitting in Pembroke Dock for an hour every time, maybe that'd pay for an intervention on those crossings..

 

[Anonymous10]

An hourly service is doable.. Whitland - Tenby is 28 mins (WTT), and Tenby-Pembroke D is 28 mins.

Two things to make this reliable:

1. signalling - cab-stuff as done on Aberystwyth/Pwllheli, instead of the driver operated token - which is a 3 minute job or so (part of the dwell time not included above).
2. replace stop-and-blow crossings with a 10 mph blow-and-go-straight-through - there are three of them on the Tenby-Pembroke side (Jameston, Manorbier Newton and Llanion) - probably saves a minute.

Perhaps it should remain a two hourly service, but save on the current unit / crew sitting in Pembroke Dock for an hour every time, maybe that'd pay for an intervention on those crossings..

ive seen me stuck at them a while so i would say 1 minute each

No Pembrokeshire line is down for an hourly service yet, though I wonder if it might be discussed at the Regional Transport Conference taking place over the next two days.

The unit that went to Tenby wouldn't have terminated there; at 28mins to Tenby and 28mins back to Whitland you would have at most 4 minutes turn-round time at Tenby which I would think would be a performance risk. As Tenby is the only passing loop on the single line it has to pass the other train there meaning you can't really do anything else than have the unit get back to Whitland about an hour after it left.

Given the density of stops between Whitland and Pembroke Dock I'm not sure how much scope there is to reach higher speeds even if the track was more modern. Also, at least west of Tenby, there are a number of level crossings where the train has to stop and sound the horn before proceeding over the crossing.

with regards to it not being possible tenby appears to have had at some point space for 3 platforms 1 being a island the other with the station building it would take some suring up but im sure it could be possible and then if extended to Pembroke Dock just reinstate platform 2

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2021 ==

So why can’t the section that went from Whitland to Tenby just hang around for a bit before returning to Whitland to join the other bit that went to Milford Haven? If it is deemed that ‘hanging around’ is a waste of resources, why not send it a bit further down the Pembroke line to maybe Manorbier?

Last time I did the Tenby line, it was slow going from Whitland and I heard the clackity clack of jointed rail on wooden sleepers. I really do wonder how long it will be until some of these lines in the outback get long welded rail on concrete sleepers as surely, that would raise the speeds a bit? I presume that this track was laid in the days of steam? The bushes were also hitting the train near Saundersfoot.

i think some sections have now been replaced between lamphey and manorbier i believe as that section had gone down to 25 mph or lower spreads due to damaged track

 

[Rhydgaled]

• An hourly service is doable.. Whitland - Tenby is 28 mins (WTT), and Tenby-Pembroke D is 28 mins.

Two things to make this reliable:

1. signalling - cab-stuff as done on Aberystwyth/Pwllheli, instead of the driver operated token - which is a 3 minute job or so (part of the dwell time not included above).
2. replace stop-and-blow crossings with a 10 mph blow-and-go-straight-through - there are three of them on the Tenby-Pembroke side (Jameston, Manorbier Newton and Llanion) - probably saves a minute.

Perhaps it should remain a two hourly service, but save on the current unit / crew sitting in Pembroke Dock for an hour every time, maybe that'd pay for an intervention on those crossings..

Agreed you might just squeese an hourly service down there but you're still stuck with an uneven interval between Whitland and Carmarthen/Swansea when you combine it with the Milford/Fishguard services. Probably would never get the budget for it but I'd suggest sticking with every two hours but putting in a dynamic loop between Narberth and Kilgety so you can get clockface 30 minute intervals at either Carmarthen or Swansea with 2tph between Swansea and Whitland comprised of:

• 1tph Gowerton, Llanelli, Pembrey & Burry Port, Carmarthen, Whitland, Clunderwen, Clarbeston Road (and onwards alternating between Fishguard and Milford calling at all stations)
• 1tph Gowerton, Llanelli, Pembrey & Burry Port, Kidwelly, Ferryside, Carmarthen, St. Clears, Whitland (ie. all stops, with alternate trains going on to Pembroke Dock)

On top of that, if we can retain some suitable trains, I would propose trying to do something about the time competitiveness of rail in this area by adding:

• 1tph Cardiff Central to Carmarthen calling at Port Talbot Parkway, Morriston Tawe Valley Parkway, Llanelli and Carmarthen ONLY
  • extensions broadly every two hours to Milford Haven calling at Whitland, Haverfordwest and Milford Haven only
  • extensions twice a day to Fishguard Harbour (in these hours the Swansea-Fishguard service would run to Milford Haven instead of Fishguard), calling at Whitland, Fishguard & Goodwick and Fishguard Harbour only

Together the Cardiff and Swansea services combine to give Milford Haven and Haverfordwest 1tph (although not clockface). You could perhaps use the loop at Tenby to throw some peak extras (the peaks being summer weekends most probably) down there although they wouldn't be able to continue to Pembroke Dock and would probably be stuck in Tenby for a long time before having a path back.

 

[Bald Rick]

So why can’t the section that went from Whitland to Tenby just hang around for a bit before returning to Whitland to join the other bit that went to Milford Haven? If it is deemed that ‘hanging around’ is a waste of resources, why not send it a bit further down the Pembroke line to maybe Manorbier?

Because it would meet a train coming the other way...

Last time I did the Tenby line, it was slow going from Whitland and I heard the clackity clack of jointed rail on wooden sleepers. I really do wonder how long it will be until some of these lines in the outback get long welded rail on concrete sleepers as surely, that would raise the speeds a bit?

Nope. The track componentry (ie it being jointed) may be a factor in the linespeed, but it won’t be the only one. The level crossings, the maintenance standards, and in particular the curvature, will be other factors.


Much as I love that part of the world, I think spending anything serious to enable a more frequent service to Tenby for the 8-10 weekends a year it would be needed is rather a waste.

 

[Rhydgaled]

with regards to it not being possible tenby appears to have had at some point space for 3 platforms 1 being a island the other with the station building it would take some suring up but im sure it could be possible and then if extended to Pembroke Dock just reinstate platform 2

Sorry, my brain's not really engaging with this tonight. How does an extra platform at Tenby help the unit get back to Whitland at a time which isn't a multiple of an hour after it left? I think you're right about there having been a 3rd platform once though.

 

[Anonymous10]

Sorry, my brain's not really engaging with this tonight. How does an extra platform at Tenby help the unit get back to Whitland at a time which isn't a multiple of an hour after it left? I think you're right about there having been a 3rd platform once though.

my point refers to the lack of passing ect which was brought up as has been said if the line has upgrade work which i believe it has it may be possible to reduce timings some what as currently they only travel at 50mph rather than 75 to my knowledge

 

[HST43257]

I’d suggest keeping the 1tp2h Manchester to Milford Haven, and I’d have the 1tp2h that currently terminates at Carmarthen from Man Pic can continue towards Pembroke Dock. As long as there’s a long distance, high capacity (more than 2 cars) connection, there isn’t much need for a higher frequency than every 120 mins. Fishguard can have a 1tp2h Carmarthen shuttle, or mothballing/closure/parliamentary.

Between Newport and Swansea, the Manchester to Pembrokeshire would (in my idea) stop at the frequent GWR Swansea service stops, working in the opposite half hour to said service. An all stopper every hour from Cardiff to Swansea and another 30 mins before/after going as far as Port Talbot as part of the South Wales Metro. The Pembrokeshire service would then call everywhere from Swansea to its destination.

 

[Anonymous10]

Agreed you might just squeese an hourly service down there but you're still stuck with an uneven interval between Whitland and Carmarthen/Swansea when you combine it with the Milford/Fishguard services. Probably would never get the budget for it but I'd suggest sticking with every two hours but putting in a dynamic loop between Narberth and Kilgety so you can get clockface 30 minute intervals at either Carmarthen or Swansea with 2tph between Swansea and Whitland comprised of:

• 1tph Gowerton, Llanelli, Pembrey & Burry Port, Carmarthen, Whitland, Clunderwen, Clarbeston Road (and onwards alternating between Fishguard and Milford calling at all stations)
• 1tph Gowerton, Llanelli, Pembrey & Burry Port, Kidwelly, Ferryside, Carmarthen, St. Clears, Whitland (ie. all stops, with alternate trains going on to Pembroke Dock)

On top of that, if we can retain some suitable trains, I would propose trying to do something about the time competitiveness of rail in this area by adding:

• 1tph Cardiff Central to Carmarthen calling at Port Talbot Parkway, Morriston Tawe Valley Parkway, Llanelli and Carmarthen ONLY
  • extensions broadly every two hours to Milford Haven calling at Whitland, Haverfordwest and Milford Haven only
  • extensions twice a day to Fishguard Harbour (in these hours the Swansea-Fishguard service would run to Milford Haven instead of Fishguard), calling at Whitland, Fishguard & Goodwick and Fishguard Harbour only

Together the Cardiff and Swansea services combine to give Milford Haven and Haverfordwest 1tph (although not clockface). You could perhaps use the loop at Tenby to throw some peak extras (the peaks being summer weekends most probably) down there although they wouldn't be able to continue to Pembroke Dock and would probably be stuck in Tenby for a long time before having a path back.

which would require a 3rd platform to be completely re made ie new track and work on bank if it goes to tenby be easier to operate it to pembroke dock and have the second platform if it had to wait. i also believe there should be 2 direct trains from pembroke dock/ tenby a day every weekday and Saturday if a hourly service couldn't be achieved between Swansea and pembroke Dock though both would be nice

 

[Kite159]

Could the Milford Haven branch support 1tph with the trains passing at Haverfordwest? (As well as the freight from the oil terminals)

Just thinking about the potential passengers who would use the train if it was hourly instead of 2 hourly, rather than jumping into cars.

 

[Anonymous10]

Could the Milford Haven branch support 1tph with the trains passing at Haverfordwest? (As well as the freight from the oil terminals)

Just thinking about the potential passengers who would use the train if it was hourly instead of 2 hourly, rather than jumping into cars.

it would be interesting to see if both pembroke Dock branch and Milford haven branch were given a hourly service at a competitive rate could really drive down driving in the county would also be good if buses worked in a way as to link the 2 terminal stations ie pembroke dock and Milford haven in a connection sense so you could take the train bus train if quicker kind of like a mini metro

 

[HST43257]

it would be interesting to see if both pembroke Dock branch and Milford haven branch were given a hourly service at a competitive rate could really drive down driving in the county would also be good if buses worked in a way as to link the 2 terminal stations ie pembroke dock and Milford haven in a connection sense so you could take the train bus train if quicker kind of like a mini metro

If there’s really enough demand (which I doubt, though I have no good reason) then why not? A boost to the area could help industry, population and the economy, but I wouldn’t get too excited.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I’d suggest keeping the 1tp2h Manchester to Milford Haven, and I’d have the 1tp2h that currently terminates at Carmarthen from Man Pic can continue towards Pembroke Dock. As long as there’s a long distance, high capacity (more than 2 cars) connection, there isn’t much need for a higher frequency than every 120 mins. Fishguard can have a 1tp2h Carmarthen shuttle, or mothballing/closure/parliamentary.

Between Newport and Swansea, the Manchester to Pembrokeshire would (in my idea) stop at the frequent GWR Swansea service stops, working in the opposite half hour to said service. An all stopper every hour from Cardiff to Swansea and another 30 mins before/after going as far as Port Talbot as part of the South Wales Metro. The Pembrokeshire service would then call everywhere from Swansea to its destination.

In my world the Manchester would run to Swansea and terminate there, calling at Neath, Port Talbot and Bridgend making a half-hourly service with the GWR service as you suggest. The reasons I haven't kept the Manchester running through beyond Swansea are as follows:

• Going via Swansea to get from Cardiff to Carmarthen is SSSLLLLLLOOOOOWWWWW compared to the M4 - Port Talbot Parkway is used as a railhead by some Pembrokeshire residents - so I put in a very limited stop hourly service to try to compete, with Cardiff keeping the same 1tph to Carmarthen and 0.5 to Milford Haven
• Population density, and therefore demand, falls off drasticlly west of Swansea. That means the long train you need east of Swansea is too long for the available demand west of Swansea - if I had access to a limitless supply of 158s and 159s I might suggest portion working but I'm working on the assumption of mark 4 sets and pairs of 175s on Manchester-Swansea and I'm no fan of splitting non-gangwayed units (and there aren't enough for everything I want to do with them anyway). Terminating at Swansea means something more appropriate (something like a modernised 156 perhaps, with a second toilet added?) can be used further west.

which would require a 3rd platform to be completely re made ie new track and work on bank if it goes to tenby be easier to operate it to pembroke dock and have the second platform if it had to wait. i also believe there should be 2 direct trains from pembroke dock/ tenby a day every weekday and Saturday if a hourly service couldn't be achieved between Swansea and pembroke Dock though both would be nice

Remember my previous post was assuming a (very unlikely) dynamic loop between Narberth and Kilgety. The standard 0.5tph service would run Swansea - Pembroke Dock passing at this dynamic loop. The Tenby loop would not be used, which means it would be available to park a peak extra service. I don't think the peak extra could get to Pembroke Dock without another new loop, because the dynamic loop between Narberth and Kilgety would be too far from Pembroke Dock to permit an hourly service. The only way to get an hourly service to Pembroke Dock without two new loops is to pass at Tenby as now and accept that you cannot have anything close to a clockface service between Whitland and Swansea.

Could the Milford Haven branch support 1tph with the trains passing at Haverfordwest? (As well as the freight from the oil terminals)

Just thinking about the potential passengers who would use the train if it was hourly instead of 2 hourly, rather than jumping into cars.

It'd be tight and probably a performance risk but in theory you could go hourly without using the loop at Haverfordwest (I think only one of the oil terminals sees any traffic at the moment, and only 1 or 2 trains a day I think, so it's not much trouble). If you have the trains pass at Haverfordwest there should be no trouble with 1tph, though whether it is better to go clockface or mix Cardiff and Swansea services as I suggest I'm not entirely sure.

it would be interesting to see if both pembroke Dock branch and Milford haven branch were given a hourly service at a competitive rate could really drive down driving in the county would also be good if buses worked in a way as to link the 2 terminal stations ie pembroke dock and Milford haven in a connection sense so you could take the train bus train if quicker kind of like a mini metro

I don't think an hourly service beyond Tenby to Pembroke Dock would acheive very much; Carmarthen to Pembroke Dock via Tenby is too slow to compete with road, just like Cardiff to Carmarthen via Swansea. The only reason to do it would be to get an hourly service to Tenby that's more robust than a tight turnround at Tenby every two hours. I think an express bus Pembroke Dock - Carmarthen non-stop in the opposite hour to the Pembroke Dock train could be faster than the train. Hourly Carmarthen to Tenby trains would be far more useful if it could be done without cutting Pembroke Dock off the network altogether.

 

[Anonymous10]

If there’s really enough demand (which I doubt, though I have no good reason) then why not? A boost to the area could help industry, population and the economy, but I wouldn’t get too excited.

im a local so i have reason to believe there is buses are full and trains are too in summer locals mainly dont use trains due to low service so if done i think it could really increase public transport usage by locals

 

[Bald Rick]

What could be done, relatively easily (subject to Level Crossing risk), is running an extra train an hour from Carmarthen (or possibly Swansea) to Tenby, running non stop from Whitland to Tenby. It would have to leave Whitland c35 minutes after the stopper - ie after the latter had departed Tenby - and the ‘fast’ would arrive Tenby at roughly the same time as the stopper is arriving at Pembroke Dock. Spin together but 14 miles apart, and same in reverse, ie fast back at Whitland before the stopper gets to Tenby.

It wouldn’t work with the current timetable structure, but that could be changed...

 

[Anonymous10]

In my world the Manchester would run to Swansea and terminate there, calling at Neath, Port Talbot and Bridgend making a half-hourly service with the GWR service as you suggest. The reasons I haven't kept the Manchester running through beyond Swansea are as follows:

• Going via Swansea to get from Cardiff to Carmarthen is SSSLLLLLLOOOOOWWWWW compared to the M4 - Port Talbot Parkway is used as a railhead by some Pembrokeshire residents - so I put in a very limited stop hourly service to try to compete, with Cardiff keeping the same 1tph to Carmarthen and 0.5 to Milford Haven
• Population density, and therefore demand, falls off drasticlly west of Swansea. That means the long train you need east of Swansea is too long for the available demand west of Swansea - if I had access to a limitless supply of 158s and 159s I might suggest portion working but I'm working on the assumption of mark 4 sets and pairs of 175s on Manchester-Swansea and I'm no fan of splitting non-gangwayed units (and there aren't enough for everything I want to do with them anyway). Terminating at Swansea means something more appropriate (something like a modernised 156 perhaps, with a second toilet added?) can be used further west.

Remember my previous post was assuming a (very unlikely) dynamic loop between Narberth and Kilgety. The standard 0.5tph service would run Swansea - Pembroke Dock passing at this dynamic loop. The Tenby loop would not be used, which means it would be available to park a peak extra service. I don't think the peak extra could get to Pembroke Dock without another new loop, because the dynamic loop between Narberth and Kilgety would be too far from Pembroke Dock to permit an hourly service. The only way to get an hourly service to Pembroke Dock without two new loops is to pass at Tenby as now and accept that you cannot have anything close to a clockface service between Whitland and Swansea.


It'd be tight and probably a performance risk but in theory you could go hourly without using the loop at Haverfordwest (I think only one of the oil terminals sees any traffic at the moment, and only 1 or 2 trains a day I think, so it's not much trouble). If you have the trains pass at Haverfordwest there should be no trouble with 1tph, though whether it is better to go clockface or mix Cardiff and Swansea services as I suggest I'm not entirely sure.


I don't think an hourly service beyond Tenby to Pembroke Dock would acheive very much; Carmarthen to Pembroke Dock via Tenby is too slow to compete with road, just like Cardiff to Carmarthen via Swansea. The only reason to do it would be to get an hourly service to Tenby that's more robust than a tight turnround at Tenby every two hours. I think an express bus Pembroke Dock - Carmarthen non-stop in the opposite hour to the Pembroke Dock train could be faster than the train. Hourly Carmarthen to Tenby trains would be far more useful if it could be done without cutting Pembroke Dock off the network altogether.

thing is is most people who would use it to commute live in pembroke dock Pembroke ext they are much larger than tenby ext so would make good sense to be given the service im of the belief that it could draw people away if it was well priced as parking is a pain in tenby and Carmarthen and not cheap if it could compete price wise could easily gain the demand in my opinion

 

[Bald Rick]

thing is is most people who would use it to commute live in pembroke dock Pembroke ext they are much larger than tenby ext so would make good sense to be given the service im of the belief that it could draw people away if it was well priced as parking is a pain in tenby and Carmarthen and not cheap if it could compete price wise could easily gain the demand in my opinion

Parking isn’t that much of a pain in Tenby, and it certainly isn’t expensive.

I agree that a more frequent service would attract more passneers, but I doubt it wouldn’t attract enough to cover its own costs, even on a summer Saturday only schedule (with a unit or two released from weekday duties)... let alone pay for any infrastructure alterations.

To put some very rough numbers on it: to run an extra Cardiff - Tenby extra service would effectively use a set of train crew for each return trip, plus diesel, plus mileage for the vehicle maintenance and track access. You won’t get much change out of £1500 per return trip. To avoid it being a drain on the Welsh Government, that means selling, on average, 75 tickets for every single trip at an average of £10 each. That might, just, be possible on summer weekends, it is very unlikely at other times of the year.

 

[Anonymous10]

Parking isn’t that much of a pain in Tenby, and it certainly isn’t expensive.

I agree that a more frequent service would attract more passneers, but I doubt it wouldn’t attract enough to cover its own costs, even on a summer Saturday only schedule (with a unit or two released from weekday duties)... let alone pay for any infrastructure alterations.

To put some very rough numbers on it: to run an extra Cardiff - Tenby extra service would effectively use a set of train crew for each return trip, plus diesel, plus mileage for the vehicle maintenance and track access. You won’t get much change out of £1500 per return trip. To avoid it being a drain on the Welsh Government, that means selling, on average, 75 tickets for every single trip at an average of £10 each. That might, just, be possible on summer weekends, it is very unlikely at other times of the year.

parking in tenby can be in summer i work there and car parks are full post 9 am and full day parking Is nearly £6 so i think its a possibility for peak hours

 

[fishwomp]

Remember my previous post was assuming a (very unlikely) dynamic loop between Narberth and Kilgety. The standard 0.5tph service would run Swansea - Pembroke Dock passing at this dynamic loop. The Tenby loop would not be used, which means it would be available to park a peak extra service. I don't think the peak extra could get to Pembroke Dock without another new loop, because the dynamic loop between Narberth and Kilgety would be too far from Pembroke Dock to permit an hourly service.[..]

Definitely don't want to have to dig another bore at Narberth - that'd have an even tighter curve! The main formation is single track.

Seriously though there were two other places with passing loops, way back. Templeton - a former station roughly midway from Kilgetty to Narberth was 2 platforms, as was Saundersfoot. Templeton could go back in without opening a station, to give some improvement in performance - but the cost of apparently simple jobs like this is eye watering..

 

[Anonymous10]

Definitely don't want to have to dig another bore at Narberth - that'd have an even tighter curve! The main formation is single track.

Seriously though there were two other places with passing loops, way back. Templeton - a former station roughly midway from Kilgetty to Narberth was 2 platforms, as was Saundersfoot. Templeton could go back in without opening a station, to give some improvement in performance - but the cost of apparently simple jobs like this is eye watering..

sadly it is very expensive to do so but we can dream

 

[Bald Rick]

parking in tenby can be in summer i work there and car parks are full post 9 am and full day parking Is nearly £6 so i think its a possibility for peak hours

We’ll have to disagree on that - in my summer trips to Tenby - school holidays in summer, pretty much every year - I’ve always found somewhere to park easily at any time of day. And £6 is nothing really compared to train fare and the need to get to a station at origin, especially when it’s 2 or more people travellling together (how many tourists go to Tenby oh their own?)

 

[Rhydgaled]

Definitely don't want to have to dig another bore at Narberth - that'd have an even tighter curve! The main formation is single track.

Seriously though there were two other places with passing loops, way back. Templeton - a former station roughly midway from Kilgetty to Narberth was 2 platforms, as was Saundersfoot. Templeton could go back in without opening a station, to give some improvement in performance - but the cost of apparently simple jobs like this is eye watering..

When I said "dynamic loop between Narberth and Kilgety" I didn't mean "double track all the way between Narberth and Kilgety". What I meant was a loop at Templeton but with no platforms and with the double track being longer than the station was.

 

[fishwomp]

When I said "dynamic loop between Narberth and Kilgety" I didn't mean "double track all the way between Narberth and Kilgety". What I meant was a loop at Templeton but with no platforms and with the double track being longer than the station was.

I know Templeton as a dynamic loop could be a problem - to be dynamic the expectation is a train in each direction can pass at line speed? There's a bridge just north of the station, and just south - so maybe 0.5 miles without massive cost, which wouldn't give length that would be needed..

Ah well, it's all well out of the range of what will ever be spent on the line unfortunately.. but I sure wish they'd sort out some of the time wasting practices on the Tenby-Pembroke Dock section.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I know Templeton as a dynamic loop could be a problem - to be dynamic the expectation is a train in each direction can pass at line speed? There's a bridge just north of the station, and just south - so maybe 0.5 miles without massive cost, which wouldn't give length that would be needed..

Ah well, it's all well out of the range of what will ever be spent on the line unfortunately.. but I sure wish they'd sort out some of the time wasting practices on the Tenby-Pembroke Dock section.

Shame, as Tenby being the only loop really does screw up anything approaching a clockface service east of Whitland. I wonder what you could do with rapidly accelerating units (197s?) and upgrading the level crossings. Could you do a self-contained hourly shuttle to and from the bay at Whitland that could connect into a roughly half-hourly mainline service?

 

[Anonymous10]

Shame, as Tenby being the only loop really does screw up anything approaching a clockface service east of Whitland. I wonder what you could do with rapidly accelerating units (197s?) and upgrading the level crossings. Could you do a self-contained hourly shuttle to and from the bay at Whitland that could connect into a roughly half-hourly mainline service?

that would be nice to see but how long has it been since the bay platform was last used

 

[Kite159]

that would be nice to see but how long has it been since the bay platform was last used

Used to see use on summer Saturdays where an unit would arrive into the bay from Pembroke, sit there for ~ 20 minutes before shunting onto the mainline to form a Whitland - Swansea (?) service