Snow/Ice disruption from 29 Dec onwards

[Chrisgr31]

Routes with no service on Sunday:

Uckfield Line:

No trains will run between Oxted and Uckfield. We will do everything we can to run trains between London Victoria and East Grinstead, so Oxted and Hurst Green should still be served by these trains.

Hastings to Ore and Ashford International:

No trains will run between Hastings and Ashford International. Also, trains which usually terminate at Ore will instead finish their journeys at Hastings, starting back from there - so there will be no service at Ore.

No alternative transport will be operating:

It is expect that replacement buses and taxis will not be able to run due to road conditions.

Its a bit odd really. They are closing the lines which are operated by the Class 171s, which being diesel should be far better at dealing with any snow than the electric trains they are going to keep running.

 

[Pacef8]

I think merseyrail set a precedent in thinking they could get away with it when it was “a bit” frosty.

 

[jamesst]

I think merseyrail set a precedent in thinking they could get away with it when it was “a bit” frosty.

Which in turn was done purely because Network Rail put a restriction of use across the whole network...

 

[philosopher]

I think merseyrail set a precedent in thinking they could get away with it when it was “a bit” frosty.

Given what happened at Lewisham during the Beast from the East in 2018, I can see why Southeastern might be very cautious in what trains run tomorrow.

 

[Murray J]

Its a bit odd really. They are closing the lines which are operated by the Class 171s, which being diesel should be far better at dealing with any snow than the electric trains they are going to keep running.

The Oxted-Uckfield route is very rural, I'd imagine they don't want to risk the train getting stranded.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Its a bit odd really. They are closing the lines which are operated by the Class 171s, which being diesel should be far better at dealing with any snow than the electric trains they are going to keep running.

I remember getting stuck at Victoria about 14ish years ago, and spent the night on a train. First train South on the Brighton line was I think about 1430. Couldn't get past Gatwick Airport. Eventually they sent a diesel to take us from Gatwick. I assume it was a 171,so perhaps they are being held in reserve to use on busier routes?

 

[matacaster]

A winter like 1962/3 would be very hard for the railway to cope with - even a sniff of snow nowadays causes issues, much the same as too much rain. We never quite cope with predictable weather events in the way that we should.

I wonder if the presence of steam locos in 1963 had any positive impact?

 

[cambsy]

I think the weight and simplicity of the steam engine helped in winter 1963, similar to why they use class 37’s on snow plough or clearing lines of snow, and on the Highland Main line the HST would get through when units couldn’t, because they are simpler and heavier, unlike units or the Azumas which at slightest thing, the electrics would stop the train.

 

[RichJF]

Its a bit odd really. They are closing the lines which are operated by the Class 171s, which being diesel should be far better at dealing with any snow than the electric trains they are going to keep running.

171s are cleared & often stabled at East Grinstead, so I guess they could be used down here if the weather gets bad. East Grinstead has its own micro climate.

 

[Chrisgr31]

171s are cleared & often stabled at East Grinstead, so I guess they could be used down here if the weather gets bad. East Grinstead has its own micro climate.

So does Crowborough. Right now it is snowing very lightly, and the grass has a very slight tinge of white. No snow lying on the road (its not gritted).

I guess the issue is damned if you do and damned if you don't. Everyone is very risk averse these days.

 

[Murray J]

171s are cleared & often stabled at East Grinstead, so I guess they could be used down here if the weather gets bad. East Grinstead has its own micro climate.

That'd certainly be interesting, not snowing too much in East Grinstead currently, not settling on the paths due to rainfall yesterday. And yes East Grinstead really does have its own micro-climate, most be the scientologists...
Also 171s aren't allowed to run to Victoria, so if there are any 171s operating today then they'll finish at East Croydon or Clapham Junction.

 

[Andy R. A.]

From National Rail:
Southeastern:
Southeastern strongly advise that you do not attempt to travel on their network on Sunday or Monday.

Given the severity of the forecast, the risk of disruption across the network is high and the following routes will be closed on Sunday and are expected to be closed on Monday, with no replacement transport available:

• Dover Priory - Ramsgate (via Deal)
• Dover Priory - Faversham (via Canterbury East)
• Medway Valley Line
• Sheerness Line
• Bromley North Line
• Hastings to Tonbridge

It appears that the Hastings Line has other problems. Three Landslips near High Brooms, latest info seems to suggest there will be no trains between Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells until 20th February.

 

[Murray J]

It appears that the Hastings Line has other problems. Three Landslips near High Brooms, latest info seems to suggest there will be no trains between Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells until 20th February.

Yeah, last year southern had it bad with landslips, looks like it's southeastern's turn this year!

 

[30907]

Its a bit odd really. They are closing the lines which are operated by the Class 171s, which being diesel should be far better at dealing with any snow than the electric trains they are going to keep running.

NRE specifically refer to the difficulty rescuing passengers if a train should be stranded in a rural area.

 

[traingeek97]

Southeastern seems to be getting a lot of stick on Twitter for cancelling dozens of services today and tomorrow when there hasn't been much disruption from the weather. Is there a reason why they have to make these decisions in advance and then not reverse them if the situation isn't as bad as expected?

 

[Murray J]

Southeastern seems to be getting a lot of stick on Twitter for cancelling dozens of services today and tomorrow when there hasn't been much disruption from the weather. Is there a reason why they have to make these decisions in advance and then not reverse them if the situation isn't as bad as expected?

Probably forward planning I'd imagine. Then again Southern reversed their decision to suspend Oxted-Uckfield services - they resumed from 13:30 and haven't stopped since.

 

[bramling]

NRE specifically refer to the difficulty rescuing passengers if a train should be stranded in a rural area.

We’re hardly talking about Settle & Carlisle levels of rural. This does seem a bit of an over reaction, though to be fair the weather forecast seems to have been different to what’s actually happened. Perhaps the worst is still to come.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Snow or not - con rail icing will be a challenge if low temperatures and a very wet environment overnight continues.

 

[pompeyfan]

I would imagine the complexity to roll back a service change is challenging, with the 171 services I would suggest they have crew still in place sitting in Messroom’s near where the units are stabled and can launch them as and when, this isn’t always possible due to crew T&Cs and diagram complexity

 

[philthetube]

We’re hardly talking about Settle & Carlisle levels of rural. This does seem a bit of an over reaction, though to be fair the weather forecast seems to have been different to what’s actually happened. Perhaps the worst is still to come.

We are talking considerable distance from a road at some points, and even further from a road a coach can get down, and to be honest 5 miles or 50 miles from civilisation makes no difference if the weather does its worse.

 

[Robertj21a]

Snow or not - con rail icing will be a challenge if low temperatures and a very wet environment overnight continues.

Let's hope that conditions tomorrow don't cause a repeat of the Lewisham fiasco.

 

[DazCM]

Southern have now sat down the E Grinstead line for the rest of the evening due to power supply failure between Sanderstead and Oxted.

 

[Murray J]

Southern have now sat down the E Grinstead line for the rest of the evening due to power supply failure between Sanderstead and Oxted.

It appears service has resumed between East Grinstead and Oxted only, presumably using a 171 that's come off of Uckfield services, going from RTT data.

 

[43055]

Southeastern has suspended departures out of London Victoria and London Charing Cross as of 2100. Some southern routes are being withdrawn as well.

 

[DA1]

Victoria - Dartford services are also now suspended on Monday as well.

 

[bramling]

Let's hope that conditions tomorrow don't cause a repeat of the Lewisham fiasco.

A repeat of Lewisham isn’t likely at the moment, as heavily loaded trains are a rarity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2021 ==

We are talking considerable distance from a road at some points, and even further from a road a coach can get down, and to be honest 5 miles or 50 miles from civilisation makes no difference if the weather does its worse.

The stations on the Uckfield line are 3-5 miles apart at the most, and most of them are on a main road. I don’t see what’s so special compared to any other line. Indeed being diesel it’s probably less of an issue than some other places.

By suspending the service they’re forcing people making essential journeys to have to go by car instead, which is far more dangerous than the hypothetical risk of the train not being able to complete the journey. In icy or snowy conditions I’m always more than glad to be able to take the train to work.

Such conditions are one of the situations where rail has a proper advantage over road, so it’s disappointing to see the towel thrown in quite so readily.

I wonder if the real problem is that the Uckfield line with its single line sections requires five sets of points to have to be functioning correctly and not blocked by snow in order to run a return trip down the branch, and achieving this is a disproportionate use of resources for the numbers of potential passengers, especially as most of these points are all in rural and inaccessible locations. Still a poor showing IMO.

 

[Robertj21a]

A repeat of Lewisham isn’t likely at the moment, as heavily loaded trains are a rarity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2021 ==



The stations on the Uckfield line are 3-5 miles apart at the most, and most of them are on a main road. I don’t see what’s so special compared to any other line. Indeed being diesel it’s probably less of an issue than some other places.

By suspending the service they’re forcing people making essential journeys to have to go by car instead, which is far more dangerous than the hypothetical risk of the train not being able to complete the journey. In icy or snowy conditions I’m always more than glad to be able to take the train to work.

Such conditions are one of the situations where rail has a proper advantage over road, so it’s disappointing to see the towel thrown in quite so readily.

I wonder if the real problem is that the Uckfield line with its single line sections requires five sets of points to have to be functioning correctly and not blocked by snow in order to run a return trip down the branch, and achieving this is a disproportionate use of resources for the numbers of potential passengers, especially as most of these points are all in rural and inaccessible locations. Still a poor showing IMO.

My comment re Lewisham was related to trains getting stuck and insufficient corrective action being taken, promptly. It wasn't the very busy trains that caused the initial problems.

 

[GB]

Clacton and Frinton have been cut off since about 2100 yesterday. Felixstowe branch has been closed most of the morning...re opened about an hour ago. Parkeston yard blocked preventing ECS and freight from leaving. Numerous points problems all over the place.

 

[Taunton]

I'm afraid I can look back to the time when rail staff all pulled together to run as complete a service as possible in poor (but not unprecedented) weather. For example, in the bitter winter of 1962/3 we visited from Somerset relations in The Wirral, about 1/2 mile from the 3rd rail electric line. Where you got

Snow or not - con rail icing will be a challenge if low temperatures and a very wet environment overnight continues.

for months, apparently. So they just ran ecs all night. We could see the arcing lighting up the sky from the house, and were told it was "normal" in winter evenings but now they were running all night (my Somerset mother, incidentally, told us children that it was the Northern Lights in the sky, until corrected ... ). Such an operation wasn't even regarded as heroic, it was just sort of expected that they would do so, done on overtime. Not only the train operation, but the signalboxes needed opening as well of course. The next morning, the peak service ran precisely to time. No trains out of action. No need to get the car out, which is what everyone has to do today.

Now we have this wonderful excuse of "Waaaah, we had a problem at Lewisham some years ago, someone got criticised, haven't done anything about it so let's just start shutting things down". Sorry, those of you directly involved, but that's just how it comes across. Have you seen the snow around this morning in outer London? There's hardly enough for a snowball.

 

[D6130]

37 422 fitted with miniature snowploughs currently on standby at Bradford Interchange following last week's snow debacle when 195 115, working 1J71, 06 42 Leeds-Manchester Victoria hit a fallen tree between Milner Royd Junction and Sowerby Bridge. Loco is available for ploughing or route proving as required. After fresh overnight snowfall, intermittent flurries and sunny spells now - 2-3 inches of snow on the ground.