Suggestions for improving MML services

[Domh245]

Thameslink means Thameslink - everywhere linked with the Thames!!

 

[paul1609]

I don't think increasing Northampton to the extend you propose is feasible. £64.10 for an Anytime Day Return isn't exactly a good value fare.

The closest mileage to Euston-Northampton from London Charing Cross is Westenhanger an Anytime Day return from there is £63.40 (Not Valid on HS1) or Birchington to Victoria £66.30 (not Valid on HS1). Why is it acceptable for not exactly flush areas in Kent but "not exactly good value" from Northampton?

 

[Hadders]

The closest mileage to Euston-Northampton from London Charing Cross is Westenhanger an Anytime Day return from there is £63.40 (Not Valid on HS1) or Birchington to Victoria £66.30 (not Valid on HS1). Why is it acceptable for not exactly flush areas in Kent but "not exactly good value" from Northampton?

Because you'd propose increasing the Northampton fare to something like £80.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The closest mileage to Euston-Northampton from London Charing Cross is Westenhanger an Anytime Day return from there is £63.40 (Not Valid on HS1) or Birchington to Victoria £66.30 (not Valid on HS1). Why is it acceptable for not exactly flush areas in Kent but "not exactly good value" from Northampton?

Price reflects competition. The M1 forms the Western boundary of Northampton - it has easy access to J15 and J15A. The loss of traffic to road (car and coach) that would result from an £80 fare would, I think, be pretty nearly complete.

As an aside, looking at Westenhanger to London fares for Monday on NRES, there's a £10.10 ticket for a train after 10. There are no cheap off peak tickets from Corby/Kettering/Wellingborough to London

 

[Ianno87]

Price reflects competition. The M1 forms the Western boundary of Northampton - it has easy access to J15 and J15A. The loss of traffic to road (car and coach) that would result from an £80 fare would, I think, be pretty nearly complete.

As an aside, looking at Westenhanger to London fares for Monday on NRES, there's a £10.10 ticket for a train after 10. There are no cheap off peak tickets from Corby/Kettering/Wellingborough to London

I wonder what EMR do will to fill up the Corby EMUs. The Cheapest advances are £11.50 each way (Corby-St Pancras) - perhaps make them available in abundance.

 

[21C101]

And why do you think that Thameslink would (a) want to give up their new services on the GN lines and (b) take on the 360s - given there are only 21 of the 360s, whereas even FCC needed 57 x 4 car units for the old outer suburban timetable (317, 321 and 365)

I'm not talking about the new Thameslink through services.

I'm talking about the Great Northern trains operating out of Kings Cross Main Line using class 700s because the Thameslink services they were supposed to be operating have been canned.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I wonder what EMR do will to fill up the Corby EMUs. The Cheapest advances are £11.50 each way (Corby-St Pancras) - perhaps make them available in abundance.

I am not sure about the present situation, but historically Corby residents had very strong links with Scotland and almost none with London. There must be a limit to the potential Corby - London market, regardless of how low the fares are. Perhaps the hope is (or was...) that it becomes a London commuter town.

 

[Hadders]

I am not sure about the present situation, but historically Corby residents had very strong links with Scotland and almost none with London. There must be a limit to the potential Corby - London market, regardless of how low the fares are. Perhaps the hope is (or was...) that it becomes a London commuter town.

Wasn't Corby marketed as 'North Londonshire' a few years ago....

 

[A0]

I'm not talking about the new Thameslink through services.

I'm talking about the Great Northern trains operating out of Kings Cross Main Line using class 700s because the Thameslink services they were supposed to be operating have been canned.

Which is only the Cambridge - KX stoppers.

The other GN services running out of KX are the Ely / Kings Lynn ones and I think they're run using 387s?

So why cause a load of hassle swapping the 700s for 360s (which might not be cleared for the GN route given it's OMO) just to try to leverage Thameslink to Corby ? It's a daft suggestion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2021 ==

I am not sure about the present situation, but historically Corby residents had very strong links with Scotland and almost none with London. There must be a limit to the potential Corby - London market, regardless of how low the fares are. Perhaps the hope is (or was...) that it becomes a London commuter town.

It *has* become a London commuter town. There are still some Scottish links but not enough to warrant either a direct train or even a direct coach as I think NX had withdrawn those pre Covid due to poor use.

 

[21C101]

There are Speculative Ideas that keep emerging in MML threads, which appear to be articles of faith for some on here:

- Thameslink Cl700s must be extended to Corby instead of EMR Cl360 services (sometimes as well as)
- At least 1 MML tph to Leicester must be a semi-fast to facilitate journeys from places like Bedford and St Albans to the North
- Market Harborough does not merit the service that it gets

I don't know why you assume Leicester and places north thereof would get a worse service.

Two trains an hour calling at St Albans, Luton A, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering Market Harborough and Leicester would free all four of the Nottingham/Sheffield intercity services to run fast from Leicester to St Pancras at even departure and arrival intervals.

You could argue whether to run such leiceter "semi-fast services to St Pancras High Level or the Thameslink core but that is a secondary consideration.

The fundamental problem is that a two 8 or 12 car trains an hour, carrying little more than fresh air will divert off the midland main line to Corby every hour, unbalancing the entire timetabie.

To my mind it would make more sense to, offpeak, run an intensive shuttle service between Kettering and Corby. A pair of 360 units would enable a 15 minute interval "turn up and go" service and a single 4 car unit per train would more than suffice.

 

[paul1609]

To my mind it would make more sense to, offpeak, run an intensive shuttle service between Kettering and Corby. A pair of 360 units would enable a 15 minute interval "turn up and go" service and a single 4 car unit per train would more than suffice.

If you believe the ORR station figures even that would be massive overkill. 300k and steady doesn't really suggest any service is a huge money spinner, its only 60% of Rye on Marshlink which basically has a 1 tph 2 car emu and no through services to London.

 

[Ianno87]

Two trains an hour calling at St Albans, Luton A, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering Market Harborough and Leicester would free all four of the Nottingham/Sheffield intercity services to run fast from Leicester to St Pancras at even departure and arrival intervals.

It wouldn't be a very good 4tph.

Effectively you'd need to flight two fasts every half hour, with the "Slow" Leicester going out behind, to be caught up approaching Leicester by the next pair of Fasts.

By sending the Slows to Corby gives space for the 4 services via Leicester to be be better spread around the hour.

 

[A0]

I don't know why you assume Leicester and places north thereof would get a worse service.

Two trains an hour calling at St Albans, Luton A, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering Market Harborough and Leicester would free all four of the Nottingham/Sheffield intercity services to run fast from Leicester to St Pancras at even departure and arrival intervals.

You could argue whether to run such leiceter "semi-fast services to St Pancras High Level or the Thameslink core but that is a secondary consideration.

The fundamental problem is that a two 8 or 12 car trains an hour, carrying little more than fresh air will divert off the midland main line to Corby every hour, unbalancing the entire timetabie.

To my mind it would make more sense to, offpeak, run an intensive shuttle service between Kettering and Corby. A pair of 360 units would enable a 15 minute interval "turn up and go" service and a single 4 car unit per train would more than suffice.

It would provide a *much* worse service to Wellingborough, Kettering, Corby and Market Harborough - adding the St Albans stop is completely unnecessary and would probably result in a further 3-5 minutes to their London journey time as well as adding a load of additional users to trains which are already busy - before lockdown on a few occasions I got an EMT service leaving St P at around 5pm and it was full and standing, there were still a few standees to Bedford after which there were a few seats - you add another 'fast' to St Albans which already gets 4 fasts / hour and make matters far worse for people travelling from further out - that also assumes you can get platform space at SAC - if it's on the fasts chances are you'll be getting in the way of another EMR service @The Planner will probably explain better than I can.

 

[MissPWay]

I wonder what EMR do will to fill up the Corby EMUs. The Cheapest advances are £11.50 each way (Corby-St Pancras) - perhaps make them available in abundance.

i think Corby itself is more of a convenient place to end electrification that a place with a latent demand for commuting currently.

From what I understand there were (pre-viral apocalypse) plans for a massive London dormitory development on the old marshalling yard near Geddington plus whatever they’re doing near the old Wellingborough Loco shed.

This seemed to be a rare case of the infrastructure being developed before the housing.

 

[Ianno87]

i think Corby itself is more of a convenient place to end electrification that a place with a latent demand for commuting currently.

From what I understand there were (pre-viral apocalypse) plans for a massive London dormitory development on the old marshalling yard near Geddington plus whatever they’re doing near the old Wellingborough Loco shed.

This seemed to be a rare case of the infrastructure being developed before the housing.

Corby still fits in the post-Covid box of "somewhere to live if you pop to the London office once or twice a week" box.

 

[PeteFLT]

Or anywhere else along the route, or made skip-stop to catch up time.


Ha!

As I said above, I hate the "everywhere to everywhere" approach of Thameslink. But, if it's here to stay anyway and with the upcoming changes to Wellingborough/Kettering service patterns, AND with a long term eye on changes caused by EWR coming to Bedford, it makes a lot of sense to extend Thameslink to Corby.

If they extend TL to Corby during disruption they'll still turn everything at Luton and those of us north of there will be even more scuppered!

 

[Class 170101]

For a line block between MH and Leicester it makes sense to put the Corby stops into the bi-modes running via Harringworth, and run EMUs from St Pancras to MH instead.

It doesn't - because you'll end up with the worst of all worlds - Harringworth adds a *huge* time penalty - the current timetable shows that, the 16.40 from East Mids Parkway via Oakham gets to Kettering at 17.58 whereas the 16.45 going via Leicester gets to Kettering at 17.23, you've then got to interwork any such services among the regular traffic between Manton Junction and Syston Junction - and between Corby and Manton Junc.

Whilst RRB's aren't always popular - a coach between Kettering and Leicester should be able to cover that in an hour - and will cause far less disruption overall.

Unless I am very much mistaken when EMR and EMT before them had this block there was a RR Bus between Kettering and Market Harborough and a sseparate RR Bus between Market Harborough and Leicester. Through services are diverted via and call at Corby. Now that was with the Single Line Only between Kettering and Corby.

If the electrification was extended to Leicester I would be tempted during its construction and probably for future possessions for maintenance to carry on with the RR Bus split at Market Harborough. If the line is only blocked between Market Harborough and Leicester then I would probably divert the Class 360 service to Market Harborough every half hour and insert a Corby call into diverted Sheffield and Nottingham services. An RR Bus bus would run Market Harborough to Leicester but only connect at Leicester and not at Market Harborough to encourage people to stay on the train via Corby. Connections between Class 360 and Intercity services at Kettering.

Whilst Market Harborough make have better interchange facilities between bus and train now than it did historically and operator does not want to order more buses than neccessary as they are a big expense and costs may not be completely covered by NR.

 

[A0]

Unless I am very much mistaken when EMR and EMT before them had this block there was a RR Bus between Kettering and Market Harborough and a sseparate RR Bus between Market Harborough and Leicester. Through services are diverted via and call at Corby. Now that was with the Single Line Only between Kettering and Corby.

If the electrification was extended to Leicester I would be tempted during its construction and probably for future possessions for maintenance to carry on with the RR Bus split at Market Harborough. If the line is only blocked between Market Harborough and Leicester then I would probably divert the Class 360 service to Market Harborough every half hour and insert a Corby call into diverted Sheffield and Nottingham services. An RR Bus bus would run Market Harborough to Leicester but only connect at Leicester and not at Market Harborough to encourage people to stay on the train via Corby. Connections between Class 360 and Intercity services at Kettering.

Whilst Market Harborough make have better interchange facilities between bus and train now than it did historically and operator does not want to order more buses than neccessary as they are a big expense and costs may not be completely covered by NR.

Means a load of timetable changing as it wouldn't be able to pick up its path at Syston. Plus a reversal at Leicester will all add to the time.

 

[Ianno87]

Means a load of timetable changing as it wouldn't be able to pick up its path at Syston. Plus a reversal at Leicester will all add to the time.

It's exactly what happens today for Corby diversions - trains just drop back an hourly slot (or whatever) on the "other side".

 

[Aictos]

If Leicester was electrified and East Midlands Railway decided to extend the EMR Electrics service, how should they continue to serve both Corby and Leicester?

Do they operate a ex Leicester 8 car set joining a ex Corby 4 car set at Kettering then in the peak as Leicester has a bigger population or do the reverse?

Equally, off-peak could they serve both as a 8 car set to Kettering then split to serve both Leicester and Corby?

EMR long distance services could then either run non stop Leicester to London or retain the Kettering stop for interchange purposes but if you're keeping Kettering then why not keep Bedford, Luton or Luton Airport although likely be non stop between Leicester and London.

As to Thameslink running to Corby, that's is something I disagree fully on as I don't believe that is a good use of resources especially when you have 8 car trains on what should be 12 car trains although this is largely due to infrastructure limits at Bedford and handling Corby to Thameslink only makes it worse not better.

As to stopping at St Alban's, why? They already get 4 fast TL's a hour, 2 semi fast TL's a hour and 4 stopping TL's a hour which is plenty, they don't need to have any more trains stopping there.

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder what EMR do will to fill up the Corby EMUs. The Cheapest advances are £11.50 each way (Corby-St Pancras) - perhaps make them available in abundance.

Reduce the formations to 4 coaches I would imagine. I don't see the DfT being happy with advances being offered at those levels.

However, it would appear that the purpose of the Corby trains is to take part of the market from Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport to London.

 

[Ianno87]

Reduce the formations to 4 coaches I would imagine. I don't see the DfT being happy with advances being offered at those levels.

They will be if it maximises revenue overall for a marginal cost if the fleet is large enough anyway.

 

[A0]

If Leicester was electrified and East Midlands Railway decided to extend the EMR Electrics service, how should they continue to serve both Corby and Leicester?

.

The obvious answer is "exactly as they will be with the new timetable"

Their new rolling stock will be bi-modes, so you keep the Sheffield / Notts services as planned, you keep the Corby services as planned. Sheffield / Notts services will just run on the juice to Leicester rather than to MH. The interchange between Leicester and Corby services will be at Kettering.

Even if Leicester were wired, there's no justification for changing the "new" (i.e. soon to be inplemented) timetable.

 

[Merle Haggard]

It *has* become a London commuter town. There are still some Scottish links but not enough to warrant either a direct train or even a direct coach as I think NX had withdrawn those pre Covid due to poor use.

I'm obviously out-of-date on the Scottish connection but, as far as London commuting by rail goes, the high fare situation apples to season tickets, too.
Corby weekly season ticket to London- £214.50 compared to £148.50 for both Northampton and Long Buckby to Euston (the charges for a monthly are £823.70 and £570.30 respectively). Pretty much only one train an hour all day.
The idea of building a new dormitory town about 75 miles from the intended workplace is an unusual one in the 21st century...

When there were Sunday diversions via Corby and Manton generally only alternate services actually called at Corby

 

[Ianno87]

The idea of building a new dormitory town about 75 miles from the intended workplace is an unusual one in the 21st century...

75 minute commute to St Pancras.

Pretty good by London commuting standards.

 

[A0]

I'm obviously out-of-date on the Scottish connection but, as far as London commuting by rail goes, the high fare situation apples to season tickets, too.
Corby weekly season ticket to London- £214.50 compared to £148.50 for both Northampton and Long Buckby to Euston (the charges for a monthly are £823.70 and £570.30 respectively). Pretty much only one train an hour all day.
The idea of building a new dormitory town about 75 miles from the intended workplace is an unusual one in the 21st century...

When there were Sunday diversions via Corby and Manton generally only alternate services actually called at Corby

House prices are about 20% lower in Corby than Northampton - that more than offsets the season ticket price difference.

 

[adamedwards]

I expect there to be a sparks effect post covid and the EMT Electrics will be a big success. Back in the 1980s Hitchen to Huntington was an hourly DMU shuttle. Then the wires went up and it now needs 12 trains. Also, instead of hoping there is a free seat on a train from further north, Kettering and Wellingborough commuters will get a seat. Expect post vaccination success.

 

[Ianno87]

I expect there to be a sparks effect post covid and the EMT Electrics will be a big success. Back in the 1980s Hitchen to Huntington was an hourly DMU shuttle. Then the wires went up and it now needs 12 trains. Also, instead of hoping there is a free seat on a train from further north, Kettering and Wellingborough commuters will get a seat. Expect post vaccination success.

Good point about Kettering/ Wellingborough. There is almost certainly some element of suppressed demand from regularly having to board 4/5 car Meridians already full from further north.

 

[A0]

I expect there to be a sparks effect post covid and the EMT Electrics will be a big success. Back in the 1980s Hitchen to Huntington was an hourly DMU shuttle. Then the wires went up and it now needs 12 trains. Also, instead of hoping there is a free seat on a train from further north, Kettering and Wellingborough commuters will get a seat. Expect post vaccination success.

I think you mean 12 car trains, not 12 trains.

I don't think you can bank on commuting returning post Covid. Many companies have now invested heavily in remote working technology and have seen little or no effect on productivity. Office space, particularly in London, is incredibly expensive so companies will be eyeing cost savings from either downsizing or relocating.

I work for a large, household name - the direction for office based staff is expect to work from home 2-3 days a week even post Covid as office space is being scaled back.

 

[Ianno87]

I think you mean 12 car trains, not 12 trains.

I don't think you can bank on commuting returning post Covid. Many companies have now invested heavily in remote working technology and have seen little or no effect on productivity. Office space, particularly in London, is incredibly expensive so companies will be eyeing cost savings from either downsizing or relocating.

I work for a large, household name - the direction for office based staff is expect to work from home 2-3 days a week even post Covid as office space is being scaled back.

Though if some London companies downsize, that enables vacant space to be taken by new companies gaining London office space for the first time, who previously may have been priced out.