Connecting Skipton/Bradford to Harrogate!

[Halifaxlad]

As some might not know around 60 million is to be spent on A59 between Skipton & Harrogate and separately WYCA have outlined aspirations in their Rail Strategy to improve rail connectivity between Bradford & Harrogate. The obvious answer as also aspired by a certain rail group is via Otley & Pool. Now a previous study declared it is possible to reinstate a line to Otley and even through it subject to modifications to the bypass, this just leaves the bit between the East of Otley and the existing Harrogate Line. Ive been looking at the options which Ive also drawn with my crayons!

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A summary of each one is below, please don't forget I was simply optionering and that I don't support forcing people to leave their homes!

Option 1) Old route, would require demolition of a lot of houses.
(Not my favorite)
Option 2) Old route, around the back of the houses and through what is now a woodland
(Not my favourite)
Option 3) Old route, in between houses to the North of the old alignment. Would require about 2/3 houses to be demolished and Old Pool Bank road to be upgraded in order to cut New Pool Bank road in two. (Not my favourite) Although would remove a lot of traffic from Pool!
Option 4) New alignment cutting through the paper mill site, the existing football pitch by the river. (Not my favorite)

Option 5) A whole new alignment crossing the river Wharf once to the West of Pool, running close to the A58 between the farms before joining the Harrogate line just before Weeton! This would be my personal favorite, minimum destruction, no houses to be demolished or playing fields.



For about 4.2 miles of new line, we could have direct services between Skipton, Bradford & Harrogate!

Also Ikley to Harrogate if a chord approximately 1km was put in at that end of the line!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I suspect the decision to spend money on that stretch of the A59 is mostly about the need for maintenance providing an opportunity to upgrade at the same time. The Blubberhouses section can snarl up with HGVs on the climb and erosion of the adjacent earthworks is also an issue. As for rail connectivity between Harrogate and Bradford/Skipton does the demand, both current and future, really justify anything more than easy connections at Leeds? Are the bus services busy?

 

[30907]

I suspect the decision to spend money on that stretch of the A59 is mostly about the need for maintenance providing an opportunity to upgrade at the same time. The Blubberhouses section can snarl up with HGVs on the climb and erosion of the adjacent earthworks is also an issue.

The A59 is falling down the hillside at Kex Gill - this is not just maintenance.
I can't find a reference to Bradford-Harrogate in the WYCA strategy, could the OP give a page reference?
Menston to Arthington is 6+ miles not 4+; I can see a case for rebuiding to Otley, though it's a not desperately direct route from Leeds, but thence towards Harrogate strikes me as highly unlikely by any route.
I'm with you in thinking that Bradford-Leeds-Harrogate is the obvious route, amd reinstating the 60s DMU service from Interchange would be a simple solution.

 

[geordieblue]

The X84/85 already serves Skipton/Ilkley/Otley well. A rail branch off the Harrogate line to serve Otley wouldn't be the worst idea in the world but Skipton-Baildon-Guiseley-Otley-Harrogate would be tortuously slow and probably fill a DMU once an hour, as well as requiring enormous infrastructure spend. Bus connections are absolutely the way to go.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The A59 is falling down the hillside at Kex Gill - this is not just maintenance.
I can't find a reference to Bradford-Harrogate in the WYCA strategy, could the OP give a page reference?
Menston to Arthington is 6+ miles not 4+; I can see a case for rebuiding to Otley, though it's a not desperately direct route from Leeds, but thence towards Harrogate strikes me as highly unlikely by any route.
I'm with you in thinking that Bradford-Leeds-Harrogate is the obvious route, amd reinstating the 60s DMU service from Interchange would be a simple solution.

Which reminds me... the introduction of 170s to Northern services was originally going to see them working both Calder Valley and Harrogate line services with shared diagrams. If a through service is deemed desirable perhaps that plan could be revisited with the linking between the services becoming an official part of the timetable. Somewhat cheaper than building a new route!

 

[tbtc]

It'd be interesting to know how a "via Otley" train would compare to the current Bradford - Leeds - Harrogate journey times available with the relatively frequent connections at Leeds (often on adjacent platforms).

I know there was an hourly Bradford - Harrogate bus (653?) but the demand seems to be more about the "Bradford to the Airport" and "Harrogate to the Airport" markets than any through demand.

Certainly Otley looks like the kind of place suited to re-openings (town close to big city, ideal commuter distance, regular commercial bus service proves that there's a market) but suffers from two problems as far as a Leeds service goes - firstly that there's not much "regeneration" required in Otley (compared to the way that people use this as a justification for building stations in Ashington/ Methil etc) and secondly because any path on the congested line out of Leeds would come at the opportunity cost of a service to Harrogate/ Ilkley/ Skipton/ Bradford (so needs to be seen in the context of using that platform space/ paths/ stock for a service to one of those places).

Certainly looks better than some of the "run a line through rural Cumbria/ Devon/ South Downs for the sake of serving a tiny village" kind of suggestions on here - I'm not convinced but it looks more interesting than a number of proposals I've seen.

 

[JRT]

The X84/85 already serves Skipton/Ilkley/Otley well. A rail branch off the Harrogate line to serve Otley wouldn't be the worst idea in the world but Skipton-Baildon-Guiseley-Otley-Harrogate would be tortuously slow and probably fill a DMU once an hour, as well as requiring enormous infrastructure spend. Bus connections are absolutely the way to go.

The X84 has recently been altered to run Ilkey – Leeds, due to reliability issues.
Current service:
784 Skipton – Ilkley shuttle (operated by Blazefield)
X52 Ilkey – Harrogate

There was a direct X59 Skipton – Harrogate bus not running currently

 

[geordieblue]

The X84 has recently been altered to run Ilkey – Leeds.
Current service:
784 Skipton – Ilkley shuttle
X52 Ilkey – Harrogate

There was a direct X59 Skipton – Harrogate bus not running currently

I should've known that actually - I travelled Leeds-Otley and Ilkley-Leeds on the X84 in November (walking in between) and they weren't running to Skipton. That said, I'd imagine it'd be extended again post-COVID.

 

[Neptune]

I just don’t think there’s enough demand for building a new line through Otley to connect Harrogate with Bradford and certainly not Skipton.

The cost of reinstating the Otley line would be very high even for a few miles so I can’t see the costs adding up. On top of that this proposal would also require re-doubling the Baildon branch which would be extremely expensive due to the fact that the single track alignment was slewed across both track beds during electrification especially through the tunnels and across the viaducts plus expensive works to reinstate platform 2 at Baildon. Yes the platform is still there but it is derelict and would probably need demolishing to build a new one. Also the junctions would need to be remodelled at either end.

The Harrogate, Wharfedale and Airedale lines would probably need heavy infrastructure works as such a service would have at least 4 conflicting moves per service on already busy routes.

Harrogate to Skipton utilising the current routes with the Otley route re-opened in some form to link them would be one hell of a diversion south then north to simply go 21 miles between the two towns. I suspect that people would not give up a less than 1 hour drive for what I see as a one hour plus journey by train.

Harrogate to Bradford sounds good in theory however, is there the demand to justify the cost? I live in the Aire Valley close to Bradford and the Harrogate to Bradford single decker bus passes through my town and it is noticeably quiet. From what I understand and as mentioned above it is mainly used for the Airport from either end. The local services into Bradford from the Aire Valley and Wharfedale pre COVID did not justify the 2tph 4 car service as it is so why would this be different.

I think opening Otley from one end only linking Leeds would perhaps justify the cost but no other part of this scheme appears to have legs. It looks like another case of connecting everywhere to everywhere regardless of cost or practicality.

 

[John Webb]

I'm not greatly in favour of road works, but when I was staying in the Skipton area in 2017 there was an exhibition in the town hall regarding the proposed works on the A59 to overcome the problems of geological instability in the Kex Gill area by returning the road to its original route a little to the north of Kex Gill where the geology is more stable. (It seems the road through Kex Gill was set up in the Victorian era to reduce the gradient for horse-drawn traffic by eliminating a steep climb from Blubberhouses for Skipton-bound traffic but the unstable geology was not appreciated by the builders.)

The resiting of the road will also allow there to be a 'crawler' lane for uphill traffic similar to the arrangement for the climb out of Wharfdale in the Harrogate direction that was instituted some years ago. This should improve traffic flow and give better connection by bus between Harrogate and Skipton at significantly less cost than a brand-new railway route would.

 

[Halish Railway]

As has been previously stated, it’s likely that any reopened railway through Otley would be built to serve Leeds, with Harrogate being less of a priority. The Arthington triangle is a good compromise between these two goals. Also, Pool-in-Wharfedale seems like a settlement that is big enough to justify a regular Leeds service

Personally, I would run the following services;
2tph Ilkley to Leeds via Otley, calling at all stations as well as providing a ‘Takt’ 4tph service for all stations beyond LBA Parkway to Leeds with the existing Knaresborough/York to Leeds service.

2tph Leeds to Harrogate or Knaresborough via Otley, calling at Guiseley, Menston, Otley, Pool-in-Wharfedale, Hornbeam Park and Harrogate, which would provide 4tph from the aforementioned Wharfedale line stations to Leeds. This would also connect with services to Bradford and Ilkley. I think that this service would be more likely to happen than a direct Bradford to Harrogate as the single track Esholt Jn to Apperley Jn is far more likely to receive funding to be doubled than the Baildon route. If they do double the route from Esholt Jn to Apperley Jn, then they should probably bite the bullet and Grade separate Apperley Jn.

 

[YorksLad12]

Given that you'd be mixing electric services at one end with diesels at the other, I'd go for reinstating the Menston Curves and coming in to Otley from the west as a branch/stub. The real problem would be locating a station and suitably large car park as you'd be creating a north Leeds P&R which would also relieve pressure on parking at Menston. The only sensible place is where the old Otley Station was, which is currently occupied, not much parking space nearby and with awkward road access.

 

[30907]

Given that you'd be mixing electric services at one end with diesels at the other, I'd go for reinstating the Menston Curves and coming in to Otley from the west as a branch/stub. The real problem would be locating a station and suitably large car park as you'd be creating a north Leeds P&R which would also relieve pressure on parking at Menston. The only sensible place is where the old Otley Station was, which is currently occupied, not much parking space nearby and with awkward road access.

The (rather roundabout) route from Menston would be do-able with one challenging road realignment at the West Chevin Rd/A660 bridge and terminating on the old station site.

The Arthington option is simpler from a railway point of view, in that it doesn't require re-doubling Apperley Jn (and Shipley?) - Guiseley. It also provides a sensible alternative terminus to Horsforth for the Parkway station, and overall is probably easier to timetable.
It would need a slight southward diversion at Pool, where the station site is now housing, and the A660/Leeds Road junction at Otley would need major work, but I think you could access the Eastern end of the old station site reasonably easily thereafter.

The question of parking is problematic - I wondered about an Otley West near the A660/Bradford Rd roundabout, but that would only really be useful for people coming from further up Wharfedale, who have their own stations already. What is really needed is decent access from Otley itself, and given the traffic problems in the town centre I wonder if we ought to be looking at electric minibus shuttles!

Anyway, whichever option gets taken, I can't see a case for doing both, which is where this thread started.

 

[Halish Railway]

The (rather roundabout) route from Menston would be do-able with one challenging road realignment at the West Chevin Rd/A660 bridge and terminating on the old station site.

The Arthington option is simpler from a railway point of view, in that it doesn't require re-doubling Apperley Jn (and Shipley?) - Guiseley. It also provides a sensible alternative terminus to Horsforth for the Parkway station, and overall is probably easier to timetable.
It would need a slight southward diversion at Pool, where the station site is now housing, and the A660/Leeds Road junction at Otley would need major work, but I think you could access the Eastern end of the old station site reasonably easily thereafter.

The question of parking is problematic - I wondered about an Otley West near the A660/Bradford Rd roundabout, but that would only really be useful for people coming from further up Wharfedale, who have their own stations already. What is really needed is decent access from Otley itself, and given the traffic problems in the town centre I wonder if we ought to be looking at electric minibus shuttles!

Anyway, whichever option gets taken, I can't see a case for doing both, which is where this thread started.

The car park at Menston is only a 5 minute drive away from the sight of Otley station where it will be far easier to find a space given that a lot of demand will be taken away as a result of Otley residents taking the train from Otley. I would expect parking restrictions around the sight of the station to be extremely strict, possibly permit only.

If a car park is built, then I’d expect it to be built on the farmland immediately south of the sight of the old station.

With regards to building a railway next to the bypass, it seems like there is enough space between the western roundabout and East Chevin Road, beyond there towards Pool is a bit of a quagmire, especially the eastern roundabout which could be solved by having the railway dive under the roundabout. Asides from this and knocking down a few houses reopening the entire Otley line should be a doddle (He hopes).

For me the main problem for me would be what services could run along the line towards Leeds that don’t require any infrastructure upgrade, case in point redoubling Springs Lane Jn to Apperley Jn and possibly grade separating Apperley Jn.

 

[zwk500]

Given that you'd be mixing electric services at one end with diesels at the other, I'd go for reinstating the Menston Curves and coming in to Otley from the west as a branch/stub. The real problem would be locating a station and suitably large car park as you'd be creating a north Leeds P&R which would also relieve pressure on parking at Menston. The only sensible place is where the old Otley Station was, which is currently occupied, not much parking space nearby and with awkward road access.

Putting additional pressure on the Leeds-Skipton line doesn't really help, and the Old Otley station is not really a sensible place for serving the half of town north of the Wharfe. Not to mention the gap between the bypass and houses doesn't look big enough for a station with disabled access to the westbound platform. Remember, it'd be a brand new station so no grandfather rights.

It would need a slight southward diversion at Pool, where the station site is now housing, and the A660/Leeds Road junction at Otley would need major work, but I think you could access the Eastern end of the old station site reasonably easily thereafter.

Also, Pool-in-Wharfedale seems like a settlement that is big enough to justify a regular Leeds service

More than a slight diversion - it'd be a severe kink. It's entirely possible you'd need a completely new alignment from the Harrogate line to to west of Pool. Pool is a settlement of 2-3,000 people. The business case for a new station there would be extremely thin. That BCR only gets worse if you're threading it between houses in woodland on the side of a hill. It might be more feasible to take the line out of Pool completely to the north.

With regards to building a railway next to the bypass, it seems like there is enough space between the western roundabout and East Chevin Road, beyond there towards Pool is a bit of a quagmire, especially the eastern roundabout which could be solved by having the railway dive under the roundabout. Asides from this and knocking down a few houses reopening the entire Otley line should be a doddle (He hopes).

For me the main problem for me would be what services could run along the line towards Leeds that don’t require any infrastructure upgrade, case in point redoubling Springs Lane Jn to Apperley Jn and possibly grade separating Apperley Jn.

To me, the most feasible option would be a station on the open ground next to St Clair road (but not being a local I have no idea if the topography/flood risk is a problem here).

Service wise, I would run 2tph all Stations Leeds-Otley, 1tph All stations to Harrogate, and 1tph to York, skipping the 2 small stations between Horsforth and Hornbeam Park. Run a bus service (Bramhope?)-Pool-Otley-Menston-Guiseley for connections onto the Bradford/Skipton Lines. Wiring to Otley and Harrogate would be ideal, but who knows what stock will look like by the time the line opens?

 

[HST43257]

Service wise, I would run 2tph all Stations Leeds-Otley, 1tph All stations to Harrogate, and 1tph to York, skipping the 2 small stations between Horsforth and Hornbeam Park. Run a bus service (Bramhope?)-Pool-Otley-Menston-Guiseley for connections onto the Bradford/Skipton Lines. Wiring to Otley and Harrogate would be ideal, but who knows what stock will look like by the time the line opens?

Weeton and Pannal deserve the 2tph that they currently have. York needs and is soon getting 2tph, justified partially by a couple of thousand houses being built at Hammerton as well as increasing levels of passengers between York, Knaresborough and Harrogate.

Run 2tph Leeds to Otley all stations, with 2tph to York running nonstop Leeds to Horsforth then all stations via Harrogate to York.

 

[30907]

Putting additional pressure on the Leeds-Skipton line doesn't really help, and the Old Otley station is not really a sensible place for serving the half of town north of the Wharfe. Not to mention the gap between the bypass and houses doesn't look big enough for a station with disabled access to the westbound platform. Remember, it'd be a brand new station so no grandfather rights.

If you are building a dead-end branch from Menston (as YorksLad12 and I are suggesting) you only need one platform.

To me, the most feasible option would be a station on the open ground next to St Clair road (but not being a local I have no idea if the topography/flood risk is a problem here).

I've just realised, that you might be suggesting a station by the northern section of St Clair Rd (not being local, I didn't notice it was in two separate parts!) - if so, that seems worth exploring (there even seems to be a generously sized factory yard at Craftsman Tools...) and would tip the balance in favour of the Arthington route.

However, with a nod to the thread title, it would make it impossible to reinstate a through route (instead of incredibly unlikely).

 

[zwk500]

If you are building a dead-end branch from Menston (as YorksLad12 and I are suggesting) you only need one platform.
However, with a nod to the thread title, it would make it impossible to reinstate a through route (instead of incredibly unlikely).

I thought, as in the thread title, you were talking about a through route. My apologies. A through route is never going to be put back anyway, because you can't get the railway north of the bypass at the western end due to the road over bridge and proximity of housing.
A dead-end branch off the Ilkley branch doesn't really help because there aren't many slots left at Shipley or Kirkstall to fit a 2tph+ service in. I think to make a commuter/semi-metro service viable for Otley 2tph is the minimum. The Harrogate line is, at least, slightly less busy.

I've just realised, that you might be suggesting a station by the northern section of St Clair Rd (not being local, I didn't notice it was in two separate parts!) - if so, that seems worth exploring (there even seems to be a generously sized factory yard at Craftsman Tools...) and would tip the balance in favour of the Arthington route.

I'll be honest, I didn't notice St Clair Rd was in 2 parts either!

 

[30907]

I'll be honest, I didn't notice St Clair Rd was in 2 parts either!

Did you mean the northern end, up towards the A659? I spotted the southern end first!

 

[zwk500]

Did you mean the northern end, up towards the A659? I spotted the southern end first!

The northern end, off Boroughgate - like you, I spotted the rather generous industrial yard.

 

[30907]

The northern end, off Boroughgate - like you, I spotted the rather generous industrial yard.

Thanks.

 

[YorksLad12]

If you are building a dead-end branch from Menston (as YorksLad12 and I are suggesting) you only need one platform.

Possibly also single track, depending on the space...

I thought, as in the thread title, you were talking about a through route. My apologies. A through route is never going to be put back anyway, because you can't get the railway north of the bypass at the western end due to the road over bridge and proximity of housing.
A dead-end branch off the Ilkley branch doesn't really help because there aren't many slots left at Shipley or Kirkstall to fit a 2tph+ service in. I think to make a commuter/semi-metro service viable for Otley 2tph is the minimum. The Harrogate line is, at least, slightly less busy.

Yeah, that was me - going off at a slight tangent. But I think a through route is unlikely because of the difficulty in fitting it in now between Arthington and Pool. A dead-end spur to a single platform station just west of East Chevin Road, even though not central for Otley, would still mean people not having to drive to Menston. "Serving a new community" and "relieving pressure on an existing station" are two of the three reasons for spending £46m-plus on Leeds Bradford International Airport Parkway Station!

But yes: there would be infrastructure pressures elsewhere, and it might even mean disentangling the Leeds-Bradford FS service from the Leeds North West diagrams. My suggestion would be for 2tph from each end of the route; one tph would run direct between Burley-in-Wharfedale and Menston towards Bradford or Leeds; the other would run via Otley.

 

[DB]

I should've known that actually - I travelled Leeds-Otley and Ilkley-Leeds on the X84 in November (walking in between) and they weren't running to Skipton. That said, I'd imagine it'd be extended again post-COVID.

There hasn't been a direct Skipton-Harrogate bus for a while - since well before the covid service cuts. Quickest way by bus is/was Skipton-Otley and change - not a direct route by any means.

I agree that train via Shipley-Baildon-Guiseley-Otley-Arthington would be far too long to be viable and a direct bus would make far more sense.

It might be more viable if the line between Skipton and Ilkley was reinstated, but that's pretty much out of the question - from Embsay to Bolton Abbey is the steam railway so major impact there. Trackbed from Bolton Abbey to just into Addingham is mostly intact, but from there on it's unworkable - formation is obliterated and a housing estate built on it, then cuttings filled in, and the mixture of bridges / embakments and viaduct through Ilkley completely removed and in some cases built over right up as far as the station. The valley is narrow at that point (hence Ilkley doesn't have a bypass), so no way to route around the edge of the town either.

 

[Halish Railway]

If the Otley route is reopened it could be done in phases, phase one being Otley to Milner Wood Jn/Burley-in-Wharfedale with the rest of the route being done at a later date. One possible solution to capacity problems between Leeds and Guiseley would be to have a service that would go there could be to have a train coming from Leeds before splitting at Menston with the constituent units going to Ilkley and Otley, although I would rather see two separate half-hourly services going to Ilkley and Otley.

I don’t think that a direct Otley to Bradford service would be a possibility, especially with the single track Baildon route.

 

[DB]

If the Otley route is reopened it could be done in phases, phase one being Otley to Milner Wood Jn/Burley-in-Wharfedale with the rest of the route being done at a later date. One possible solution to capacity problems between Leeds and Guiseley would be to have a service that would go there could be to have a train coming from Leeds before splitting at Menston with the constituent units going to Ilkley and Otley, although I would rather see two separate half-hourly services going to Ilkley and Otley.

I don’t think that a direct Otley to Bradford service would be a possibility, especially with the single track Baildon route.

The connecting links from Guiseley to both Shipley (via Baildon) and the Leeds line (just east of Apperley Bridge) are single track - possibly due to limited height in tunnels meaning that the track has to go down the middle? This is a significant capacity constraint and why it's not possible for charters to run to Ilkley. Any intensification of services would probably require both sections to be doubled.

 

[Halish Railway]

The connecting links from Guiseley to both Shipley (via Baildon) and the Leeds line (just east of Apperley Bridge) are single track - possibly due to limited height in tunnels meaning that the track has to go down the middle? This is a significant capacity constraint and why it's not possible for charters to run to Ilkley. Any intensification of services would probably require both sections to be doubled.

The Springs Jn to Apperley Jn route has 4tph in each direction at rush hour.

Also it’s not possible to run charter trains into Ilkley because the platforms at Ilkley can only accommodate eight carriages so it’d be quite a short train and because the long block sections between Guiseley and Ilkley means that timetabling an express train would be very difficult without tweaking the timetable of other trains.

Lowering the track inside of Apperley Tunnel and Apperley Lane Tunnel is perfectly possible, it was done to Springs Tunnel and Greenbottom Tunnel when the line was originally electrified.

 

[Ploughman]

WOULD THIS WORK?

Bramhope - Harrogate line.
Arthington - Otley
Menston - Guiseley
Greenbottom Tunnel - Disused Rawdon Branch then Leeds - Bradford Airport.

 

[Halish Railway]

WOULD THIS WORK?

Bramhope - Harrogate line.
Arthington - Otley
Menston - Guiseley
Greenbottom Tunnel - Disused Rawdon Branch then Leeds - Bradford Airport.

Only by boring a tunnel under Yeadon to connect Guiseley to Horsforth via LBA due to the topography of the area.

 

[matacaster]

Only by boring a tunnel under Yeadon to connect Guiseley to Horsforth via LBA due to the topography of the area.

True, but it has the merit of actually giving Yeadon airport an underground station on site at the same time. It would be expensive, but its not that far in distance terms.

 

[HST43257]

If you had an Otley to Guiseley route, would there be 2tph to both Bradford and Leeds? Pretty sure some doubling would be required whatever happens.