Future rolling stock and upgrades for the WoE line.

[43096]

It is expected that a new order will be placed in 2023, giving the 159’s 2-3 more years with SWR.

Expected by who? If an order is placed in 2023 then it's going to be 2025 before the 159s are replaced.

 

[MarkyT]

It’s unfortunate. And yes, the 159’s might have 10 years of usable life yet, but that doesn’t mean that they will be at SWR for all those years.

It is expected that a new order will be placed in 2023, giving the 159’s 2-3 more years with SWR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2021 ==


I like the idea. Anything that is comfortable for passengers.

When I commuted between Basingstoke and Waterloo (en route from Reading West, and hence avoiding the tube in London via Paddington) in the early noughties. I had a hierarchy of comfort that heavily influenced which trains I aimed for. 159s were nice, clean and recently refurbed, and second only to 444s, which were very shiny and new at the time with air-con that was heaven in the summer. What I actively tried to avoid was the comparatively tatty and frankly smelly 442s with their overstuffed seats that I found too low and overly raked back. I'd even choose a 450 on a semi-fast over one of those. As to the engine noise, I know I may be unusual among enthusiasts in this respect, but I actually rather like the soothing rumble of a big lump humming under my feet. I even like that aspect of the Voyagers. OK call me a freak then!

 

[bramling]

When I commuted between Basingstoke and Waterloo (en route from Reading West, and hence avoiding the tube in London via Paddington) in the early noughties. I had a hierarchy of comfort that heavily influenced which trains I aimed for. 159s were nice, clean and recently refurbed, and second only to 444s, which were very shiny and new at the time with air-con that was heaven in the summer. What I actively tried to avoid was the comparatively tatty and frankly smelly 442s with their overstuffed seats that I found too low and overly raked back. I'd even choose a 450 on a semi-fast over one of those. As to the engine noise, I know I may be unusual among enthusiasts in this respect, but I actually rather like the soothing rumble of a big lump humming under my feet. I even like that aspect of the Voyagers. OK call me a freak then!

Engine noise isn’t a bad thing IMO (bonus if it sounds nice like a Thumper!). I’d rather have something constant and soothing which drowns out more irritating sounds, like rattles and squeaks, or some of the noises passengers make - especially things like tinny headphones.

 

[Energy]

It is expected that a new order will be placed in 2023, giving the 159’s 2-3 more years with SWR.

Is it? I haven't heard anything on an order to replace them and I haven't seen any actual evidence that they are considering a replacement.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Expected by who? If an order is placed in 2023 then it's going to be 2025 before the 159s are replaced.

The whole basis seems to be Network Rail report that was published last summer and commissioned prior to Covid-19 which as we all know has caused the biggest shake-up of the Railway in recent decades. Any timescales mentioned for nearly anything in that report will already be long out the window. Look at the CP6 investment cuts already agreed.

I would suggest buying new trains to increase capacity or replace stock which isn’t life expired is incredibly unlikely given current circumstances bearing in mind we have no idea how well the railway will recover from this or not.

 

[swt_passenger]

The whole basis seems to be Network Rail report that was published last summer and commissioned prior to Covid-19 which as we all know has caused the biggest shake-up of the Railway in recent decades. Any timescales mentioned for nearly anything in that report will already be long out the window. Look at the CP6 investment cuts already agreed.

I would suggest buying new trains to increase capacity or replace stock which isn’t life expired is incredibly unlikely given current circumstances bearing in mind we have no idea how well the railway will recover from this or not.

Even then, that report, (link in post #55), is ambiguous, in that it also clearly suggested the easier option bringing in more 158s... It certainly doesn’t read as a guarantee of new stock on a specific date.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Even then, that report, (link in post #55), is ambiguous, in that it also clearly suggested the easier option bringing in more 158s... It certainly doesn’t read as a guarantee of new stock on a specific date.

Indeed and the report seems to be based on the need for extra rolling stock to alleviate projected peak overcrowding, the pandemic has somewhat removed this need and if anything is likely to throw up spare rolling stock in many parts of the country.

 

[Cowley]

When I commuted between Basingstoke and Waterloo (en route from Reading West, and hence avoiding the tube in London via Paddington) in the early noughties. I had a hierarchy of comfort that heavily influenced which trains I aimed for. 159s were nice, clean and recently refurbed, and second only to 444s, which were very shiny and new at the time with air-con that was heaven in the summer. What I actively tried to avoid was the comparatively tatty and frankly smelly 442s with their overstuffed seats that I found too low and overly raked back. I'd even choose a 450 on a semi-fast over one of those. As to the engine noise, I know I may be unusual among enthusiasts in this respect, but I actually rather like the soothing rumble of a big lump humming under my feet. I even like that aspect of the Voyagers. OK call me a freak then!

I don’t think engine noise is particularly annoying either. If you’ve got the background hum of an engine in the cabin it prevents you from hearing quiet conversations a few rows away.
The noisier passengers will still be heard of course.
They always are though...

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Even then, that report, (link in post #55), is ambiguous, in that it also clearly suggested the easier option bringing in more 158s... It certainly doesn’t read as a guarantee of new stock on a specific date.

158’s will is likely to be the solution, which is unfortunate.

SWT were considering new rolling stock until they lost the franchise. The south western franchise need Stagecoach back as this isn’t going well.

 

[Energy]

SWT were considering new rolling stock until they lost the franchise.

Were they? I haven't seen any evidence that they were considering a replacement

The south western franchise need Stagecoach back as this isn’t going well.

SWT were better but is SWR that bad?

 

[Mikey C]

Give it a few years, and I'm sure an otherwise short of work Derby will be churning out an bimode end door Aventra for the WOE line. Maybe ordered just before the next election

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Were they? I haven't seen any evidence that they were considering a replacement

SWT were better but is SWR that bad?

A consistent profit for over a decade tells that SWT were a lot better.

A 132m loss for SWR tells me that SWR really is that bad.

 

[dgl]

Give it a few years, and I'm sure an otherwise short of work Derby will be churning out an bimode end door Aventra for the WOE line. Maybe ordered just before the next election

Unfortunately it'll probably be an out of work Derby shut by Alstom, although the quality of Derby produce does seem to match with Alstom's quality expectations!

As for the 159's, unlike other sprinters these are superior units and as such have fared much better over the years, they are still a good train with the upgraded air-con and at the moment seem to be a perfect fit for the route, reliable, light relatively good acceleration, gangwayed between sets and a proper long distance DMU, something the route requires.

 

[Irascible]

Unfortunately it'll probably be an out of work Derby shut by Alstom, although the quality of Derby produce does seem to match with Alstom's quality expectations!

As for the 159's, unlike other sprinters these are superior units and as such have fared much better over the years, they are still a good train with the upgraded air-con and at the moment seem to be a perfect fit for the route, reliable, light relatively good acceleration, gangwayed between sets and a proper long distance DMU, something the route requires.

Indeed, not many other routes have such a perfect fit for the line in it's current state. I'd suggest re-engining with modern cleaner & more efficient engines ( and retiring other 158s there to go through the same refurb cycle ) but I think they're probably a bit too far in their life cycle for it to be worth it. Giving the route excess 158s as they're replaced elsewhere so individual annual mileage goes down might help prolong life too until we can decide the line needs a complete upgrade & perhaps there's newer tech which would enable a complete upgrade more affordably.

How is reliability since SWR took over? the DfT might want to consider creating a seperate maintenance organisation ( or a department of NR, whatever ) if swapping TOCs causes problems there.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

So one of the issues mentioned in the report is the physical capability of the 159’s ie. their power and acceleration.

How much power can the final drive on the 159’s handle? Would there be an issue if the 159’s underwent a full engine replacement scheme and the power was incesee from 350/400hp to say 550/600 to give them a boost to increase acceleration and time keeping? 100hp or so would help to maintain speed over Honiton Bank.

What engine would be selected? Most likely something from MTU or CAT.

 

[dgl]

Of course the other advantage of the 158/9 is that they have aluminum bodies so like the D78's have less issues with corrosion, one of the big issues with older stock and other classes of sprinter.

 

[pompeyfan]

Having had a chance to think about it, a 755 based unit probably wouldn’t work as you’d end up with two power packs taking up at least 15m. I can actually see hitachi getting the order and making a custom built design based on a cross between the AT200 and AT300. Basically a 385 but with Diesel engines but the ability to pick up 3rd rail, end doors and walk through gangways. They’ll probably be 5 coaches with a separate small order for the Romsey rocket/Test valley services from someone like Stadler.

 

[MarkyT]

Having had a chance to think about it, a 755 based unit probably wouldn’t work as you’d end up with two power packs taking up at least 15m. I can actually see hitachi getting the order and making a custom built design based on a cross between the AT200 and AT300. Basically a 385 but with Diesel engines but the ability to pick up 3rd rail, end doors and walk through gangways. They’ll probably be 5 coaches with a separate small order for the Romsey rocket/Test valley services from someone like Stadler.

With electric transmission clearly and batteries, likely requiring fewer modular diesel generator sets as a result. Also designed from the outset for adding a pantograph and main step-down transformer in future if and when required, or incorporated from new depending on timescales and electrification progress. Don't care who builds them as long as the quality is there, but a larger notional common fleet might also replace GWR Cardiff-Portsmouth axis and some other longer-distance regional routes in the west resulting in economies of scale.

 

[pompeyfan]

With electric transmission clearly and batteries, likely requiring fewer modular diesel generator sets as a result. Also designed from the outset for adding a pantograph and main step-down transformer in future if and when required, or incorporated from new depending on timescales and electrification progress. Don't care who builds them as long as the quality is there, but a larger notional common fleet might also replace GWR Cardiff-Portsmouth axis and some other longer-distance regional routes in the west resulting in economies of scale.

effectively a 444 but with the ability to self propel off the juice and comfortably manage steep gradients. Agreed the builder isn’t massively important but I’d personally prefer it not to be Bombardier.

I hadn’t actually considered the Pompey Cardiff route and other similar flows but you make a valid point about economies of scale, especially if the DfTs are still holding the keys for years to come.

 

[43096]

effectively a 444 but with the ability to self propel off the juice and comfortably manage steep gradients. Agreed the builder isn’t massively important but I’d personally prefer it not to be Bombardier.

It won't be Bombardier....

Or do you mean "not Derby"?

 

[pompeyfan]

It won't be Bombardier....

Or do you mean "not Derby"?

Both!!

 

[43096]

Both!!

Bombardier is no longer a rail business.

 

[pompeyfan]

Bombardier is no longer a rail business.

I wasn’t aware of that, I must have been the only person that didn’t know.

 

[dgl]

I wasn’t aware of that, I must have been the only person that didn’t know.

Bombardier's rail business is now part of Alstom and I would guess there will be a rebranding over the years, sort of similar to how Fiat Chrysler Automobiles and PSA Gruppe don't exist anymore.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Was Bombardier's rail business not profitable, or did they just need the cash as a result of the global situation?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2021 ==

Having had a chance to think about it, a 755 based unit probably wouldn’t work as you’d end up with two power packs taking up at least 15m. I can actually see hitachi getting the order and making a custom built design based on a cross between the AT200 and AT300. Basically a 385 but with Diesel engines but the ability to pick up 3rd rail, end doors and walk through gangways. They’ll probably be 5 coaches with a separate small order for the Romsey rocket/Test valley services from someone like Stadler.

Yes, but with only two intermediate cabs, assuming that 6 car 755's are ordered and not 3 or 5 cars.

A 3+3+2+2 159 comes in a 231m, with 6 intermediate cabs wasting space.

A 6+6 755 would come in around 191.8m, including the power cars. So in actual fact its 12 passengers cars plus to powerpacks.

 

[Energy]

Was Bombardier's rail business not profitable, or did they just need the cash as a result of the global situation?

Bombardier (the parent company) had a lot of debt.

 

[Kite159]

Was Bombardier's rail business not profitable, or did they just need the cash as a result of the global situation?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2021 ==


Yes, but with only two intermediate cabs, assuming that 6 car 755's are ordered and not 3 or 5 cars.

A 3+3+2+2 159 comes in a 231m, with 6 intermediate cabs wasting space.

A 6+6 755 would come in around 191.8m, including the power cars. So in actual fact its 12 passengers cars plus to powerpacks.

*Pictures the extended dwell times at the likes of Basingstoke & Woking with only having single doors like the 755s have*

And how many seats will be lost with the reduction of length for the busier eastern end of the service? And how bigger is the cab on a 755 compared to a sprinter, and that is before you try and get stadler to retrofit a gangway

 

[Journeyman]

But they give a poor ride, have thumping engines under your feet and are also totally unsuited to the route.

Nonsense, the engines are barely noisier than the traction motors. It's actually very hard to notice them kick in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2021 ==

A consistent profit for over a decade tells that SWT were a lot better.

A 132m loss for SWR tells me that SWR really is that bad.

That's got much more to do with the franchise terms from the DfT. Stagecoach thought the risks were too high and walked away. The terms they had previously were extremely heavily weighted in their favour and a licence to print money.

 

[Irascible]

Yes, but with only two intermediate cabs, assuming that 6 car 755's are ordered and not 3 or 5 cars.

A 3+3+2+2 159 comes in a 231m, with 6 intermediate cabs wasting space.

Except, as was explained before the cabs use less space than the vestibule end, so really you're missing out on another toilet.

RE earlier quote about transmission - I've no doubt you could fit an uprated torque converter to handle more power, but I don't know about the final drive - plus there might be wheelslip issues & so on. Uprating the lot of them to 400bhp would help, at least.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Except, as was explained before the cabs use less space than the vestibule end, so really you're missing out on another toilet.

RE earlier quote about transmission - I've no doubt you could fit an uprated torque converter to handle more power, but I don't know about the final drive - plus there might be wheelslip issues & so on. Uprating the lot of them to 400bhp would help, at least.

I doubt wheelslip would be an issue. The 159's are sure footed enough to handle 550hp easily and you obiously wouldn't use full power away from a stand.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2021 ==

That's got much more to do with the franchise terms from the DfT. Stagecoach thought the risks were too high and walked away. The terms they had previously were extremely heavily weighted in their favour and a licence to print money.

Be interesting to see if when the franchise is up for renewal in 2024 Stagecoach gets back onboard, or if they’re out for good and FirstGroup gets to continue destroying the franchise.

The DfT would have been better off leaving the franchise as it was. It was profitable before and any money they would have gained by weighing more in their own favour they would have lost when the franchise eventually fell to an OLR, which it would have done even without Covid.