New lockdown in England, including school closures, announced by Johnson, 4/1/21

[ainsworth74]

The government strategy of blaming people who “don’t follow the rules” is, to be honest, puerile - as it grossly distorts the complexity of the whole thing.

It's very on brand though for this Government though to blame everyone else but them! Sadly though it does appear to be working from my observations both anecdotally and also from polling. Lots of people blaming people for "not following the rules".

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It's very on brand though for this Government though to blame everyone else but them! Sadly though it does appear to be working from my observations both anecdotally and also from polling. Lots of people blaming people for "not following the rules".

It is.

I have a number of people who are social media "friends" who regularly launch in to rants on their social media about how everyone is breaking the rules and how Covid would have been eliminated by now and we'd all be back to normal if "everyone had just followed the rules". The same people also regularly scream hysterically that "we need full lockdown NOW, bring the army on the streets to make people stay inside".

 

[35B]

It is.

I have a number of people who are social media "friends" who regularly launch in to rants on their social media about how everyone is breaking the rules and how Covid would have been eliminated by now and we'd all be back to normal if "everyone had just followed the rules". The same people also regularly scream hysterically that "we need full lockdown NOW, bring the army on the streets to make people stay inside".

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, how many of these people are there really? Social media is very good at creating an echo chamber effect, giving very few a disproportionately loud voice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2021 ==

I must admit, I've not really seen any discussion which the population regarding the prevention of medical harm by the virus and the need to get on with lives. It all seems to have been a one way street whereby the Government and its advisors, tells us what that balance should be, and demands that we enact policies to support that. Perhaps the first step is a genuine discussion with the population, rather than the hasty imposition of policy manufactured by SAGE. That might be a bit of a luxury now, while the vaccine is being rolled out, however this discussion will become vital in the event that the advisors want to impose stringent measures once the population have been vaccinated.

I agree, if the effect of vaccination is to allow the virus to remain endemic but avoid serious harms, government messaging will have to evolve significantly. However, it's only in the last few weeks that vaccination has seriously allowed that kind of differentiation to be considered.

The interesting question given the emerging data on recipients' transmission levels will be whether the government then go for harm reduction or elimination as an approach, and how that will compare with other countries approaches to border control.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree, if the effect of vaccination is to allow the virus to remain endemic but avoid serious harms, government messaging will have to evolve significantly. However, it's only in the last few weeks that vaccination has seriously allowed that kind of differentiation to be considered.

The interesting question given the emerging data on recipients' transmission levels will be whether the government then go for harm reduction or elimination as an approach, and how that will compare with other countries approaches to border control.

This is true, however I would argue that the discussion would need to be had once all of our medical options have been expended, regardless of how successful they are.

Even if one agrees that some level of behavioural change might be necessary in the worst case scenario, there would still need to be a discussion and consensus as to how much change people found acceptable in the long run.

In terms of countries that have eliminated the virus, they will have to decide whether they want to open up and have a harm reduction plus vaccination policy, or continue with border controls and elimination.

 

[35B]

This is true, however I would argue that the discussion would need to be had once all of our medical options have been expended, regardless of how successful they are.

Even if one agrees that some level of behavioural change might be necessary in the worst case scenario, there would still need to be a discussion and consensus as to how much change people found acceptable in the long run.

In terms of countries that have eliminated the virus, they will have to decide whether they want to open up and have a harm reduction plus vaccination policy, or continue with border controls and elimination.

They will indeed. Where I suspect we will never agree is in the role of government leadership and agenda setting in this - I consider it part of what a government is for that it should set out it's approach and lead, rather than follow public opinion. That leadership may legitimately be in a direction that sets the risk calculus in a different place to where you or I would have it.

 

[yorksrob]

They will indeed. Where I suspect we will never agree is in the role of government leadership and agenda setting in this - I consider it part of what a government is for that it should set out it's approach and lead, rather than follow public opinion. That leadership may legitimately be in a direction that sets the risk calculus in a different place to where you or I would have it.

I'd have more confidence in the Government setting agendas if I thought it was setting the right agenda. I think that some sections of the public also show a lack of consideration of the bredth of the situation. They are caught up in what's going on now, with little consideration of the implications for what sort of society we want to live in, long into the future.

In many ways it would be better if, as a society, we considered what we would be prepared to do in the worst possible scenario. If the virus continued to be the threat it is long into the future, regardless of treatment or vaccine, what sort of society would we be prepared to live with. Would we be prepared to live under lockdown for long periods of time indefinately, and accept onerous restrictions on our lives into the future. If we gave more consideration to what we were prepared to live with in this respect, it would give us more perspective as to what risks and balances are acceptable in a more fortunate situation where there are vaccines and treatments on the horizon,.

 

[Bikeman78]

It's very on brand though for this Government though to blame everyone else but them! Sadly though it does appear to be working from my observations both anecdotally and also from polling. Lots of people blaming people for "not following the rules".

A new B&M Bargains store opened recently on Newport Road. Local Facebook group is full of people moaning about how full it was. Are these people genuinely too thick to understand the irony of going to a store on its opening day and then complain about lots of other people doing the same?

 

[philosopher]

The interesting question given the emerging data on recipients' transmission levels will be whether the government then go for harm reduction or elimination as an approach, and how that will compare with other countries approaches to border control.

I do get the impression from the government that they are undecided on whether to try and eliminate it or live with it and are waiting to see what happens over the next few weeks. It may be that some in the cabinet like Hancock want to go for elimination, while others such as Sunak prefer to live with it.

 

[Dent]

I do get the impression from the government that they are undecided on whether to try and eliminate it or live with it and are waiting to see what happens over the next few weeks. It may be that some in the cabinet like Hancock want to go for elimination, while others such as Sunak prefer to live with it.

Elimination is simply not a realistic possibility. Only one disease has ever been eliminated, and that took 200 years.

 

[Tezza1978]

I do get the impression from the government that they are undecided on whether to try and eliminate it or live with it and are waiting to see what happens over the next few weeks. It may be that some in the cabinet like Hancock want to go for elimination, while others such as Sunak prefer to live with it.

Elimination is not and will never be their policy. Hancock wouldnt be promising a "free" great British summer if that was the case, and the government wouldn't survive any attempt to do it - only a few Corbynista crackpots like Burgon and Abbott want to go down this route

 

[bramling]

It's very on brand though for this Government though to blame everyone else but them! Sadly though it does appear to be working from my observations both anecdotally and also from polling. Lots of people blaming people for "not following the rules".

Absolutely. The whole thing has been debased down to the level of school rules. Treat people like children and they will act like that.

They would be doing far better to educate people on what measures are actually effective and what the hazards are should they find themselves in a situation where they’re actually exposed to COVID. There’s for example been little focus on what measures to take to reduce risk of in-household transmission, beyond “open your windows”. Ditto all the fuss about masks, yet most people fail to use them correctly.

 

[Class 33]

Another Downing Street News Conference today with Whitty also appearing! He better not be doom and gloom again like he usually is. But he certainly can't say "Things are very much heading in the wrong direction." today, as the stats are all going down!

 

[Bantamzen]

Another Downing Street News Conference today with Whitty also appearing! He better not be doom and gloom again like he usually is. But he certainly can't say "Things are very much heading in the wrong direction." today, as the stats are all going down!

"Too soon to be relaxing restrictions"
"Data not yet clear"
"New strains of concern"
"Capt Tom Moore a hero"
"We need more testing"
"Stay at home"
"Protect the NHS"
"Save lives"
<In a whisper> "Stuff your lives, do as we say, not as we do"

 

[Huntergreed]

Elimination is not and will never be their policy. Hancock wouldnt be promising a "free" great British summer if that was the case, and the government wouldn't survive any attempt to do it - only a few Corbynista crackpots like Burgon and Abbott want to go down this route

Tell that to Nicola Sturgeon and Mark Drakeford!

My fear is that once we open up, cases will rocket (of course they will!) and, whilst people won’t be in hospital, we’ll get the media going:

RECORD NUMBER OF NEW CORONAVIRUS CASES AS CONCERNS ABOUT NEW VARIANTS RISES, “LOCKDOWN NEEDED NOW” SAYS EXPERT

 

[duncanp]

"Too soon to be relaxing restrictions"
"Data not yet clear"
"New strains of concern"
"Capt Tom Moore a hero"
"We need more testing"
"Stay at home"
"Protect the NHS"
"Save lives"
<In a whisper> "Stuff your lives, do as we say, not as we do"

A few more to add to the Boris Bingo card for tonight:-

"bear down on this deadly virus"
"now is not the time to <insert lockdown relaxation of your choice>."
"I cannot confirm that <insert lockdown relaxation of your choice> will happen by <insert random month in 2021>.."
"This government will not hesitate to <insert new restriction of your choice>"
"We cannot guarantee that......."

 

[nlogax]

I'm unsure why anyone here continues to put themselves through watching these pressers. Why do you do it? It's like some sort of torture and imo utterly worth avoiding for the sake of good mental health.

 

[duncanp]

Tell that to Nicola Sturgeon and Mark Drakeford!

My fear is that once we open up, cases will rocket (of course they will!) and, whilst people won’t be in hospital, we’ll get the media going:

RECORD NUMBER OF NEW CORONAVIRUS CASES AS CONCERNS ABOUT NEW VARIANTS RISES, “LOCKDOWN NEEDED NOW” SAYS EXPERT

But surely the point is that if people aren't in hospital, it doesn't matter so much about how many new cases there are.

What will be important is that anyone who has symptoms can get a test as soon as possible, which may involve test kits being on sale at local pharmacies and supermarkets. Then, if anyone does test positive, they are able to isolate easily (if they live in a houseghold with other people) and do not suffer financially by isolating.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm unsure why anyone here continues to put themselves through watching these pressers. Why do you do it? It's like some sort of torture and imo utterly worth avoiding for the sake of good mental health.

I've not watched one in months, you don't need to, they are cliché central.

 

[nlogax]

I've not watched one in months, you don't need to, they are cliché central.

They're dreadful. Great excuse to do something else.. anything at all!

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm unsure why anyone here continues to put themselves through watching these pressers. Why do you do it? It's like some sort of torture and imo utterly worth avoiding for the sake of good mental health.

I'm also somewhat confused. Lots of people around here (and elsewhere to be fair!) deride them and the pronouncements that result yet all still keep tuning in? Why? I have no strong feelings about the scientific participants (whilst I do have very strong feelings about the politicians involved) and just don't bother watching them. Anything important or useful will be picked up by the media or appear on Twitter not long afterwards. Much better way of doing things in my view!

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think I've ever bothered with any of those tripe fests.

I prefer old episodes of Come Dine With Me myself.

 

[brad465]

What might help is if someone finds a way of introducing Whitty and Valence to ecstasy

(of course as health professionals this would never happen)

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

"Too soon to be relaxing restrictions"
"Data not yet clear"
"New strains of concern"
"Capt Tom Moore a hero"
"We need more testing"
"Stay at home"
"Protect the NHS"
"Save lives"
<In a whisper> "Stuff your lives, do as we say, not as we do"

Im sure you will get a full house with this selection!!

The problem with these pressers is the utter inadequacy of the national media to ask a sensible question. Most of them go for setup question which won't be answered and is a wasted opportunity to hold the government's feet to the fire over the real issues.

What are you doing to measure vaccine efficacy in those vaccinated already?
Have you got a control group to ensure efficacy is being maintained by going beyond 3 weeks?
You previously said groups 1-4 were priority as they removed 88% of those at risk of dying - is this still the strategy?
Why is the roadmap not being released til 22 Feb?
Why are SAGE minutes still being censored and delayed publication?

Doubt i will score any winners on my bingo card!

 

[Darandio]

What might help is if someone finds a way of introducing Whitty and Valence to ecstasy

(of course as health professionals this would never happen)

Bang some tunes on as well. "Tonight at 5pm, Whitty and Vallance throwing some shapes". I'd tune in for that!

I also notice Hancock today has told everyone that he based many decisions after watching the film Contagion. Now although it's actually a good film and quite relevant, their are certain things a health secretary should keep to themselves.

 

[Yew]

Bang some tunes on as well. "Tonight at 5pm, Whitty and Vallance throwing some shapes". I'd tune in for that!

I also notice Hancock today has told everyone that he based many decisions after watching the film Contagion. Now although it's actually a good film and quite relevant, their are certain things a health secretary should keep to themselves.

Perhaps you could play the. The Cha Cha (next) slide (please)?

 

[Bantamzen]

Apparently BoJo wants a "clap for Capt Tom" tonight at 6pm. I wonder what they are planning to announce at 18:01?

 

[STINT47]

Cases going down
People in hospital going down
Deaths going down
Vaccinations going up

But the message will be .It's to early to ease any restrictions All your life can consist of is going to work then sitting at home. If you say otherwise you will be taken to a covid patient and told to look them in the eye whilst explaining that your a granny killer.

 

[35B]

I'd have more confidence in the Government setting agendas if I thought it was setting the right agenda. I think that some sections of the public also show a lack of consideration of the bredth of the situation. They are caught up in what's going on now, with little consideration of the implications for what sort of society we want to live in, long into the future.

In many ways it would be better if, as a society, we considered what we would be prepared to do in the worst possible scenario. If the virus continued to be the threat it is long into the future, regardless of treatment or vaccine, what sort of society would we be prepared to live with. Would we be prepared to live under lockdown for long periods of time indefinately, and accept onerous restrictions on our lives into the future. If we gave more consideration to what we were prepared to live with in this respect, it would give us more perspective as to what risks and balances are acceptable in a more fortunate situation where there are vaccines and treatments on the horizon,.

That is why I was not commenting on whether you or I will agree with the agenda they come up with; part of the art of leadership is to convince people to do something they would not otherwise have done.

As for the long term implications, I personally think the worries about the impact on society as a whole of Covid measures are overstated. There is plenty of historical record of societies rebounding quite well after severe restrictions imposed for a crisis have been relaxed; I see no particular reason why Covid should be different. That I believe this is not intended to diminish the problems Covid restrictions have caused to many due to the medical, psychological or economic impacts of Covid.

 

[Class 33]

A few more to add to the Boris Bingo card for tonight:-

"bear down on this deadly virus"
"now is not the time to <insert lockdown relaxation of your choice>."
"I cannot confirm that <insert lockdown relaxation of your choice> will happen by <insert random month in 2021>.."
"This government will not hesitate to <insert new restriction of your choice>"
"We cannot guarantee that......."

Either he and/or Whitty will probably once again say "Our hospitals are still under a great deal of pressure.". But I think within about a month or so they won't even be able to say that anymore. In the space of 2 weeks, the numbers in hospital have fallen from a high of 39,219 to today's 32,851. They should easily be down under 20,000 in around a month.

 

[greyman42]

I also notice Hancock today has told everyone that he based many decisions after watching the film Contagion.

I don't think he actually said that.