Advice Only for Greater Anglia - Delay Repay Fraud

[Titfield]

I think some people are not grasping what I was trying to say earlier.

Saying they will take you to court is different to actually doing it.

They say they have evidence, say they will take you to court - and offer you a settlement.

If you know for sure you're innocent, then contest it. See if they actually take you to court.

In various lines of work I've been involved with legal cases and the attitude was always "see if they actually take it to court, if they do we will start talking".

Remember that you can still settle out of court after they issue proceedings.

I'm not saying anyone here is guilty or innocent - but if innocent, tell them you are and see what happens. I'm not a fan of people paying large sums of money because they are scared when they feel they are innocent.

Yes agreed.

As I said in my earlier post we will now see what happens.

Will GA issue proceedings, will some claimants contest them, will some claimants concede......?

 

[glitterjo]

has anyone who has had a letter had any more information from GA? I asked for details of journeys made and they sent an email back within a couple of hours with six and said they had other examples. I replied and asked them to send those over too but I'm wondering how long to wait?

They'll all be from 2019 and while I can use my 2020 diary to check the ones they sent through yesterday I don't have my 2019 diary any more. So I'm not sure there's much point? I'll be able to trace some of the journeys because they'll tie in with documented work (ie I can show a website that shows I was definitely in a certain place at a certain time) but... it's so stressful waiting.

 

[Beazer]

has anyone who has had a letter had any more information from GA? I asked for details of journeys made and they sent an email back within a couple of hours with six and said they had other examples. I replied and asked them to send those over too but I'm wondering how long to wait?

They'll all be from 2019 and while I can use my 2020 diary to check the ones they sent through yesterday I don't have my 2019 diary any more. So I'm not sure there's much point? I'll be able to trace some of the journeys because they'll tie in with documented work (ie I can show a website that shows I was definitely in a certain place at a certain time) but... it's so stressful waiting.

Ask for the exact details and smart card data. Then you might be surprised.
For example, if you claimed for a 9am train that was cancelled, and your smart card was recorded at the exit barrier at 11.30am, GA flag this as suspect fraud.

 

[eoff]

Anyone who thinks it is helpful writing to their MP at this critical stage is deluded beyond belief. You are in the midst of a criminal investigation, and your words and actions need to be carefully considered. You do not want to escalate the situation. The only person you should be talking to is a qualified legal professional. I doubt any reputable MP will interfere in a criminal investigation anyway, but say they do, I think you will find that it can have the opposite desired effect, and make a prosecutor even more determined to stand their ground.

The point about contacting MPs etc. is not necessarily to ask them to help with an individual case but to raise what innocent people think may be unacceptable behaviour by the TOC to multiple people who made valid claims. If those people exist in enough numbers and MPs or consumer's organisations (most likely the latter) see a pattern then eventually this might result in some bad publicity and the TOC will think twice and find it harder to push in Magistrates courts if their evidence is on shaky grounds like travel patterns.

I would be surprised that TOCs can conduct criminal investigations, but I'm sure others can confirm.

Now if people were being taken to court then that is a completely different matter and I'm sure the advice would dramatically differ.

 

[Titfield]

There are the Rail Ombudsman and London Travelwatch who represent the interests of Passengers.

Is it unacceptable behaviour by a TOC for it to ask a claimant to reconfirm their claim and possibly elaborate on the particulars of a claim?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

For example, if you claimed for a 9am train that was cancelled, and your smart card was recorded at the exit barrier at 11.30am, GA flag this as suspect fraud.

I appreciate that this is a much more immediate for you than for some others of us on this forum, but please could you explain a bit further? Is this something that you know for fact? And assuming so, what frequency of trains and journey time do you have in mind? Without being flippant, exiting a barrier at 11.30 and claiming against a cancelled 09.00 train would be entirely reasonable if the train route ran every half hour and the journey took two hours - but if the train is every ten minutes and the journey takes fifteen, then that could be a discrepancy that needs to be explained.

 

[eoff]

Is it unacceptable behaviour by a TOC for it to ask a claimant to reconfirm their claim and possibly elaborate on the particulars of a claim?

This is for the person who receives the letter to decide based on the facts and the tone/content of the letter.

 

[Titfield]

This is for the person who receives the letter to decide based on the facts and the tone/content of the letter.

GA state (extract of policy) https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/about-us/revenue-protection-prosecutions-policy
Greater Anglia’s policy is to prosecute fraudulent travel and Byelaw offences. However, in the interest of justice you may be contacted and asked to provide further mitigation or information before deciding to prosecute. You may be contacted by:

• Verification Letter: We may send a verification letter if you have no record of any similar offences, asking you to verify it was you travelling and to give any explanation of the incident involving the alleged offence with any additional mitigation.

On that basis GA may decide if no response is forthcoming to initiate prosecution.

Obviously it is up to the recipient of the letter but I would suggest that a failure to engage or at the very least acknowledge receipt of the letter could be detrimental to the interests of the recipient of the letter.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The point about contacting MPs etc. is not necessarily to ask them to help with an individual case but to raise what innocent people think may be unacceptable behaviour by the TOC to multiple people who made valid claims. If those people exist in enough numbers and MPs or consumer's organisations (most likely the latter) see a pattern then eventually this might result in some bad publicity and the TOC will think twice and find it harder to push in Magistrates courts if their evidence is on shaky grounds like travel patterns.

I would be surprised that TOCs can conduct criminal investigations, but I'm sure others can confirm.

Now if people were being taken to court then that is a completely different matter and I'm sure the advice would dramatically differ.

Any person or organisation can conduct criminal investigations. Railway companies just have additional legislation they can use.

 

[Horizon22]

I wonder if the data on the new rolling stock that can show how many people are on a train (approximately), including how many board and alight at each station, might be used to see if a delayed train really did have as many people onboard as there were claims made.

On this point in particular there definitely is. On newer stock it can be very accurate.

 

[Egg Centric]

On this point in particular there definitely is. On newer stock it can be very accurate.

I don't doubt it measures weight accurately, but I weigh 3x as much as my wife, and while that is fairly extreme I doubt it can give that accurate a number.

Probably would need different mutipliers the closer you got to London

 

[Journeyman]

I appreciate that this is a much more immediate for you than for some others of us on this forum, but please could you explain a bit further? Is this something that you know for fact? And assuming so, what frequency of trains and journey time do you have in mind? Without being flippant, exiting a barrier at 11.30 and claiming against a cancelled 09.00 train would be entirely reasonable if the train route ran every half hour and the journey took two hours - but if the train is every ten minutes and the journey takes fifteen, then that could be a discrepancy that needs to be explained.

There's also legitimate reasons for this. Say you originally plan to catch a train to be at your office for a 9am meeting, that lasts to 11am. Your train is cancelled, and as there's no point in going to half the meeting, you go home for a while, send a few emails and get a later train to get to the office in the afternoon. I'd say you've still been legitimately inconvenienced. Also, I try and avoid getting the next departure after a cancelled train, because it'll usually be uncomfortably full.

 

[jon0844]

I don't doubt it measures weight accurately, but I weigh 3x as much as my wife, and while that is fairly extreme I doubt it can give that accurate a number.

Probably would need different mutipliers the closer you got to London

It isn't just weight though, as there are counters on every set of doors. Obviously never going to be spot on accurate, but probably fairly decent and sufficient to confirm if a train had just 20-30 people on it yet had 3,000 delay repay claims.

Of course, unless the train was totally empty, I am not entirely sure how they could accuse you of not being one of the 20-30 people. I guess it's the multiple suspicious claims that will trigger an investigation.

Maybe they're just bluffing and trying to scare people off using these services, or maybe they've been very thorough with various checks, and are playing their cards close to their chests for now.

 

[AlterEgo]

has anyone who has had a letter had any more information from GA? I asked for details of journeys made and they sent an email back within a couple of hours with six and said they had other examples. I replied and asked them to send those over too but I'm wondering how long to wait?

They'll all be from 2019 and while I can use my 2020 diary to check the ones they sent through yesterday I don't have my 2019 diary any more. So I'm not sure there's much point? I'll be able to trace some of the journeys because they'll tie in with documented work (ie I can show a website that shows I was definitely in a certain place at a certain time) but... it's so stressful waiting.

Of course they have more journeys that are suspect. They won’t tell you all of them. They want you to tell them that!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2021 ==

There are the Rail Ombudsman and London Travelwatch who represent the interests of Passengers.

Is it unacceptable behaviour by a TOC for it to ask a claimant to reconfirm their claim and possibly elaborate on the particulars of a claim?

Not when prosecuting a case of fraud - a serious offence - no.

 

[357]

It's worth remembering that when these journeys are supposed to have occurred GA were using the old fleet when thinking of passenger counting hardware.

 

[Fokx]

Can’t help but notice most of the people who are being contacted regarding possible delay seem to have similar usernames but different travel history all with the same TOC?

Joharry
Jo78
Glitterjo

Am I missing something here?

 

[Journeyman]

Can’t help but notice most of the people who are being contacted regarding possible delay seem to have similar usernames but different travel history all with the same TOC?

Joharry
Jo78
Glitterjo

Am I missing something here?

No, that thought crossed my mind too.

 

[glitterjo]

Can’t help but notice most of the people who are being contacted regarding possible delay seem to have similar usernames but different travel history all with the same TOC?

Joharry
Jo78
Glitterjo

Am I missing something here?

I had noticed that we all seem to be called Jo! I initially thought that maybe they were doing something alphabetical but then... surely that would be by surname?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2021 ==

Of course they have more journeys that are suspect. They won’t tell you all of them. They want you to tell them that!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2021 ==


Not when prosecuting a case of fraud - a serious offence - no.

Yes, they've said they do have more journeys but I can't respond to them unless I know what they are? Or do you mean that I should have the details of every journey I claimed for? I really wish I had kept a proper record but I didn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2021 ==

There's also legitimate reasons for this. Say you originally plan to catch a train to be at your office for a 9am meeting, that lasts to 11am. Your train is cancelled, and as there's no point in going to half the meeting, you go home for a while, send a few emails and get a later train to get to the office in the afternoon. I'd say you've still been legitimately inconvenienced. Also, I try and avoid getting the next departure after a cancelled train, because it'll usually be uncomfortably full.

Yes - I did that quite often. Sometimes - because it's a 30 minute walk to the station - I'd check my train on Journey Checker before leaving the house and if there was a lot of disruption I wouldn't even go down to the station until it was clearing, and I claimed at least a couple of times for trains I should have been on. I even checked with the guy at the ticket counter at the station if I should do that and he said that was fine as it was the train I'd intended to travel on (in the morning I would usually get the same train, unless I had a meeting out of the office).

I also would not always get the next train directly after a cancelled train, as I had (it's now resolved) a mild disability after a medical event which meant I found it difficult to stand for long periods of time. I did have the 'please offer me a seat' badge etc but I found it quite uncomfortable to ask (though people were generally really nice about it) so I'd usually wait for a slightly later one.

I hadn't even considered this might be a red flag.

 

[Titfield]

Yes - I did that quite often. Sometimes - because it's a 30 minute walk to the station - I'd check my train on Journey Checker before leaving the house and if there was a lot of disruption I wouldn't even go down to the station until it was clearing, and I claimed at least a couple of times for trains I should have been on. I even checked with the guy at the ticket counter at the station if I should do that and he said that was fine as it was the train I'd intended to travel on (in the morning I would usually get the same train, unless I had a meeting out of the office).

hmm I have to say that does make me wonder somewhat. If you check in advance and do not go to the station does this mean you qualify? You havent presented yourself for travel on the train which was delayed.

 

[MotCO]

hmm I have to say that does make me wonder somewhat. If you check in advance and do not go to the station does this mean you qualify? You havent presented yourself for travel on the train which was delayed.

But Glitterjo was waiting in the comfort of his own home rather than at the station. He was inconvenienced - he intended to catch an earlier train - so I think the claim is valid.

 

[Journeyman]

hmm I have to say that does make me wonder somewhat. If you check in advance and do not go to the station does this mean you qualify? You havent presented yourself for travel on the train which was delayed.

I don't think that's a prerequisite. If your intention was to travel on it, the claim is still an honest one.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Exactly. Surely at a big station with decent landside facilities passengers won’t go through the gates onto the platform until they need to, so if they’re using smart ticket time data from the gateline it’s misleading?

 

[Titfield]

But Glitterjo was waiting in the comfort of his own home rather than at the station. He was inconvenienced - he intended to catch an earlier train - so I think the claim is valid.

But there is no demonstration or proof of intent or of actual inconvenience other than the statement of the claimant.

I am speculating but this of course may be (and I stress may be) the issue that GA have decided to focus upon.

 

[Journeyman]

Exactly. Surely at a big station with decent landside facilities passengers won’t go through the gates onto the platform until they need to, so if they’re using smart ticket time data from the gateline it’s misleading?

Even at a smaller station, you might arrive, take one look at the information screens at the entrance, and turn away again.

 

[ainsworth74]

But there is no demonstration or proof of intent or of actual inconvenience other than the statement of the claimant.

I am speculating but this of course may be (and I stress may be) the issue that GA have decided to focus upon.

Many people will claim for journeys of which there is no actual proof what train they intended to catch. The system requires a certain level of trust between the parties in order to function and absent that it basically falls apart. Now of course a TOC may wish to check the validity of some of these claims more closely where it spots a pattern emerging ("hmm, Mr Smith does seem to manage to end up being 'delayed' a lot more than you'd expect and always seems to conveniently be intending to catch the only delayed train on his season ticket route") but outside of that a lack of evidence that you intended to catch a specific train really isn't proof of anything one way or another.

I have ended up being delayed whilst having never left home because I could see the train service was up the spout so didn't bother leaving until it was clearly sorted out. I still claimed Delay Repay as I had been delayed (just from the comfort of my bed rather a cold platform) and was able to offer precisely zero proof that of the service I claimed for I had intended to catch.

 

[Jimmyd84]

There is a point where you have cancelled trains and you just give up and go home. You'd never cross the barrier or get on a train but my understanding was you could claim for trains you intended to get. I remember one where I got an hour down the line, they kicked us off, cancelled trains for hours so I headed back home. Never made it to my destination.

If I got a message saying a train I was planning to get was cancelled I'd stay in bed or at the office a bit longer, sometimes I'd just go to the pub for a few hours until it was all clear. That's assuming I get enough notice, I often got the message as I arrived at the station and turned straight around.

They never offered any information about what evidence would be accepted but I don't know how you prove intent to travel.

 

[ainsworth74]

The point about contacting MPs etc. is not necessarily to ask them to help with an individual case but to raise what innocent people think may be unacceptable behaviour by the TOC to multiple people who made valid claims. If those people exist in enough numbers and MPs or consumer's organisations (most likely the latter) see a pattern then eventually this might result in some bad publicity and the TOC will think twice and find it harder to push in Magistrates courts if their evidence is on shaky grounds like travel patterns.

I would be surprised that TOCs can conduct criminal investigations, but I'm sure others can confirm.

Now if people were being taken to court then that is a completely different matter and I'm sure the advice would dramatically differ.

Then it will perhaps surprise you to learn that not only do TOCs conduct their own criminal investigations (though some use a shoddy third-party outfit) but indeed prosecute their own criminal cases at court! You might want to have a read through the 'Legal' section of our ticketing guide (here) for more information.*

*As an aside the guide is somewhat outdated now hence it's not quite as prominent as it used to be but the Legal section is still very relevant as things don't change much in that realm!

 

[SuspectUsual]

There is a point where you have cancelled trains and you just give up and go home. You'd never cross the barrier or get on a train but my understanding was you could claim for trains you intended to get. I remember one where I got an hour down the line, they kicked us off, cancelled trains for hours so I headed back home. Never made it to my destination.

That isn’t a delay repay claim though

 

[Journeyman]

I have ended up being delayed whilst having never left home because I could see the train service was up the spout so didn't bother leaving until it was clearly sorted out. I still claimed Delay Repay as I had been delayed (just from the comfort of my bed rather a cold platform) and was able to offer precisely zero proof that of the service I claimed for I had intended to catch.

Exactly, and with train running information now easier to obtain than ever, this is going to get increasingly common.

 

[jon0844]

But Glitterjo was waiting in the comfort of his own home rather than at the station. He was inconvenienced - he intended to catch an earlier train - so I think the claim is valid.

In many cases, the TOC might have a rail replacement bus on standby or put someone in a taxi to their destination. There might have been a stop order put on another train - some of which might have reduced your delay (maybe making it a 15-30 minute delay instead of 30-60 or 60+).

There are many reasons that could mean sitting at home and making a claim because you saw a delay on your app isn't going to look good.

If you were at the station and didn't go through the gateline, you'd probably be able to get information on what was being done that wouldn't be possible at home.