Is the class 455 really life expired?

[Wolfie]

Well, you can react with whatever smileys you like! Slam door stock has gone, and most non-enthusiast users were very glad to see the back of it.

Agreed. I had the dubious misfortune to start commuting on EPBs in the late 80s. Obsolete, dirty, smelly, generally unpleasant rust-heaps that were at least 10 years past their best before date in ambience and, given their pre-war design origins, about 30 years past in technology and user friendliness. I celebrated the day they went. Oh, and the "comfy" seats (to hide the almost complete absence of suspension on the units) that your hands got dirty touching, that yielded great clouds of dust if you hit them and that were often literally flea ridden were rubbish too.

 

[Journeyman]

Agreed. I had the dubious misfortune to start commuting on EPBs in the late 80s. Obsolete, dirty, smelly, generally unpleasant rust-heaps that were at least 10 years past their best before date in ambience and, given their pre-war design origins, about 30 years past in technology and user friendliness. I celebrated the day they went. Oh, and the "comfy" seats (to hide the almost complete absence of suspension on the units) that your hands got dirty touching, that yielded great clouds of dust if you hit them and that were often literally flea ridden were rubbish too.

Exactly. I travelled on SUBs and EPBs a lot when I was a kid, and honestly, if I'd had to use them every day, I'd have gone off the railway extremely quickly indeed. Just before the Thumpers went in 2004, I spent quite a lot of time chasing them and enjoyed doing so, but if I'd still been commuting in the 21st century on non-gangwayed stock which was that noisy, draughty and poorly maintained, I'd have been asking serious questions about where my five grand a year was going.

 

[Meglos]

Agreed. I had the dubious misfortune to start commuting on EPBs in the late 80s. Obsolete, dirty, smelly, generally unpleasant rust-heaps that were at least 10 years past their best before date in ambience and, given their pre-war design origins, about 30 years past in technology and user friendliness. I celebrated the day they went. Oh, and the "comfy" seats (to hide the almost complete absence of suspension on the units) that your hands got dirty touching, that yielded great clouds of dust if you hit them and that were often literally flea ridden were rubbish too.

I'd forgotten about the dust clouds! I did a fair amount of travelling out of Putney, and on to the BML out of Clapham Junction. Dust everywhere, and by the time you got to Gatwick your hands were covered in dirt.

My current neighbour who has lived on the Chessington branch since before the EPB's retired, tells me that he absolutely hated them in the summer. Not because he travelled on them, but because there was a trackside fire regularly where commuters had flicked their cigarette butts out of the open windows and onto the dry lineside vegitation.

 

[physics34]

The dust isnt really a fault of the train itself though, and besides, dust clouds come off southern 455 seats. Each to their own, Slammers were great, they had to be replaced, but they were great.

 

[Journeyman]

The dust isnt really a fault of the train itself though, and besides, dust clouds come off southern 455 seats. Each to their own, Slammers were great, they had to be replaced, but they were great.

Nah, that's rose-tinted glasses for sure. The Southern was held back by its ancient rolling stock long after other regions got better modern trains.

 

[Mikey C]

I too was happy when the EPBs were replaced. Uncomfortable, and completely out of date.

A lot of the "modern" BR stock of the 70s and 80s was flawed in different ways, with awful seating (the appalling original low backed seating of the PEPS and 455s), unattractive interiors and non aligned windows. SWT did a good job in their 455 refurbishment in improving the bits that could be changed!

 

[physics34]

Nah, that's rose-tinted glasses for sure. The Southern was held back by its ancient rolling stock long after other regions got better modern trains.

Maybe rose tinted glasses, but i enjoyed driving them aswell

 

[Journeyman]

Maybe rose tinted glasses, but i enjoyed driving them aswell

Well, I quite liked them from an enthusiast perspective, but I recognise that generally they were hated by punters who enviously saw other regions get better stock far earlier. Put it this way - in the same year the Scottish Region got the attractive and modern sliding door 303s, Eastleigh Works was still turning out BR design 4-EPBs with slam doors and compartments with really grim interiors, alongside 2-EPBs on recovered underframes dating back to the 1920s.

 

[DustyBin]

Well, I quite liked them from an enthusiast perspective, but I recognise that generally they were hated by punters who enviously saw other regions get better stock far earlier. Put it this way - in the same year the Scottish Region got the attractive and modern sliding door 303s, Eastleigh Works was still turning out BR design 4-EPBs with slam doors and compartments with really grim interiors, alongside 2-EPBs on recovered underframes dating back to the 1920s.

True but three decades later the north (and south west) got pacers. Other than having automatic doors they were inferior to an EPB in every way....

I only vaguely remember the EPBs but I remember the CEPs, CIGs and VEPs very well (and the BEPs and BIGs). The CEPs and BEPs had been subjected to a somewhat ‘unfortunate’ refurbishment in the 1980s and the VEPs were a bit draughty as a result of having so many doors, but the CIGs and BIGs were lovely units. SWT really looked after theirs and they provided a very pleasant, in fact I’d go so far as to say luxurious, travelling environment. I won’t deny they were a little bouncy at speed but when you have so much padding in your seat it doesn’t matter. Modern units may accelerate quicker and have WiFi and air conditioning but they all seem to be built to the most basic specification the TOCs (and DFT) can get away with. OT but I’ve actually started flying to Aberdeen since the Azumas took over, they’re not fit for purpose. A park bench provides somewhere to sit but I have a sofa in my living room....

 

[Journeyman]

This is getting seriously off topic, but I use Azumas regularly and I like them.

 

[D365]

Nah, that's rose-tinted glasses for sure. The Southern was held back by its ancient rolling stock long after other regions got better modern trains.

Surely not!

 

[DaveHarries]

I quite like 455s and am always glad of the chance to ride one if the day job allows. They are not life-expired IMO: I have never had one fail that I have been on but no doubt they do sometimes pack up.

Dave

 

[physics34]

I quite like 455s and am always glad of the chance to ride one if the day job allows. They are not life-expired IMO: I have never had one fail that I have been on but no doubt they do sometimes pack up.

Dave

From a structural point of view they probably are, although from a passengers point of view i guess they dont seem to be

 

[Domh245]

From a structural point of view they probably are, although from a passengers point of view i guess they dont seem to be

Other way around if anything - mechanically (and probably structurally) fine, but from a passenger point of view, no longer fit for purpose in an age of air conditioning

 

[Journeyman]

Other way around if anything - mechanically (and probably structurally) fine, but from a passenger point of view, no longer fit for purpose in an age of air conditioning

Also acceleration, access/egress time and lack of toilets makes them unfit in the longer term.

 

[Aictos]

If the Class 455s are still acceptable to be kept in service then why are we taking Class 317s etc out of service? Surely as they're around the same age as to the 455s they can continue for another decade minimum.

As to the 455s while they might seem to be life expired, we still have the Class 313s running out of Brighton so surely we can cascade the 455s to replace the 313s and scrap them then a decade later introduce brand new rolling stock to replace the scrapped 455s?

 

[Fincra5]

If the Class 455s are still acceptable to be kept in service then why are we taking Class 317s etc out of service? Surely as they're around the same age as to the 455s they can continue for another decade minimum.

As to the 455s while they might seem to be life expired, we still have the Class 313s running out of Brighton so surely we can cascade the 455s to replace the 313s and scrap them then a decade later introduce brand new rolling stock to replace the scrapped 455s?

SWR 455s have new motors etc, not sure 317s do... Which are also all being replaced by 720s (etc), so have no home to go to.

A 313 replacement is bound to be something newer (not necessary brand new) with A/C and Toilet(s). Swapping a 313 for a 455 isn't really worth it for passenger experience.

 

[A60stock]

Im pretty sure the class 317s are very close to original condition, where-as the class 455s are heavily updated interior wise (and also traction package wise now too).

Of interest, how has the new traction package led to the original BREL sound of the 80s being retained? (Infact, it sounds even louder now). I thought they would sound identical to a brand new train built around 2017-Present

 

[TrainTrackJack]

The Class 455's in technicality are just the 3rd rail version of the 317. Both originate from around the same time. However, it's madness that even though the 455s have just had an AC traction motor revamp and full refurbishment, they are still probably going to head for scrap as I don't believe another operator will take them.

 

[Aictos]

SWR 455s have new motors etc, not sure 317s do... Which are also all being replaced by 720s (etc), so have no home to go to.

A 313 replacement is bound to be something newer (not necessary brand new) with A/C and Toilet(s). Swapping a 313 for a 455 isn't really worth it for passenger experience.

Apart from going from 3 and 6 coaches to 4 and 8 car coaches but that depends on platforms being capable of taking 8 coaches as I believe and I await to be corrected but some stations are limited in the length of trains that can call at those stations?

 

[Wolfie]

SWR 455s have new motors etc, not sure 317s do... Which are also all being replaced by 720s (etc), so have no home to go to.

A 313 replacement is bound to be something newer (not necessary brand new) with A/C and Toilet(s). Swapping a 313 for a 455 isn't really worth it for passenger experience.

You also have the potential complications involved with different ROSCOs potentially owning the fleets. If the Southern 313s for example are owned by a different ROSCO to the SWR 455s they are hardly, at least without significant compo, about to agree to a fleet replacement such as you propose. Not to mention staff training, logistics support chains etc etc

 

[swt_passenger]

You also have the potential complications involved with different ROSCOs potentially owning the fleets. If the Southern 313s for example are owned by a different ROSCO to the SWR 455s they are hardly, at least without significant compo, about to agree to a fleet replacement such as you propose. Not to mention staff training, logistics support chains etc etc

They definitely are separately owned, the 313s are not even with one of the main ROSCOs, but Beacon Rail. I mentioned this a few days back, it definitely isn’t as simple as people think...

 

[Energy]

They definitely are separately owned, the 313s are not even with one of the main ROSCOs, but Beacon Rail. I mentioned this a few days back, it definitely isn’t as simple as people think...

Indeed, 313s are Beacon Rail, SWR 455s are Porterbrook and GTR 455s are Eversholt.

 

[Wolfie]

They definitely are separately owned, the 313s are not even with one of the main ROSCOs, but Beacon Rail. I mentioned this a few days back, it definitely isn’t as simple as people think...

Missed that, sorry and thanks for the info. The days of the Fat Controller saying make it so are long since gone, lol...

 

[Journeyman]

The Class 455's in technicality are just the 3rd rail version of the 317. Both originate from around the same time. However, it's madness that even though the 455s have just had an AC traction motor revamp and full refurbishment, they are still probably going to head for scrap as I don't believe another operator will take them.

The refurbishment was actually about 15 years ago, so they've had plenty of value out of that.

 

[Deepgreen]

Maybe rose tinted glasses, but i enjoyed driving them aswell

One thing the SUBs and EPBs had over modern stock was that they would barge through much worse conditions - snow, ice, etc. Modern, tehnologically-advanced and complex stock sits down at a hint of ice!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2021 ==

Indeed, 313s are Beacon Rail, SWR 455s are Porterbrook and GTR 455s are Eversholt.

Showing yet another facet of privatisation that makes things complicated, layered with contractual management and inflexible.

 

[Energy]

One thing the SUBs and EPBs had over modern stock was that they would barge through much worse conditions - snow, ice, etc. Modern, tehnologically-advanced and complex stock sits down at a hint of ice!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2021 ==


Showing yet another facet of privatisation that makes things complicated, layered with contractual management and inflexible.

Is it a problem? Swapping units round is not hard when they are reaching the end of their lease or if they are the same ROSCO. Moving stock doesn't happen a lot unless they are at the end of their leases.

 

[43096]

Is it a problem?

It gets in the way of people playing “fantasy fleets” on here.

 

[DustyBin]

The Class 455's in technicality are just the 3rd rail version of the 317. Both originate from around the same time. However, it's madness that even though the 455s have just had an AC traction motor revamp and full refurbishment, they are still probably going to head for scrap as I don't believe another operator will take them.

Only really in so far as they share the same basic MK3 body shell and exterior styling (or arguably lack thereof!). The traction packages are completely different and the 317s are an outer suburban 100mph unit whereas the 455s are a high density 75mph unit. I'm not engaging in pedantry for the sake of it, I just thought is was worth pointing out that they're quite different in some ways!

 

[MatthewRead]

The refurbishment was actually about 15 years ago, so they've had plenty of value out of that.

Southern's were refurbished between 2002-05 while South West's were refurbished between 2004-07.