Panoramic cars for scenic lines...

[Bletchleyite]

All those Pacers had nice big panoramic windows, but no-one ever enthused over those.

I certainly did, I've used the term "wall of glass" about them before.

 

[Dr Hoo]

All those Pacers had nice big panoramic windows, but no-one ever enthused over those.
Lancaster-Leeds and Preston-Leeds has some of the best scenery in the country and the Pacer windows displayed it well - but no-one ever noticed

The views in the Hope Valley from Pacers were great. (But it was time for them to go and I really only liked the original 'bus' seats.)

 

[Neptune]

If it wasn't for them being "cheap as f***", as it were, the Class 397 bodyshell would be pretty much that - just do a 110mph variant with the gangwayed cab from the 730 rather than the pointy nose and add some form of generation facility and third rail pickup. The windows are massive, the pillars narrow, there's a slight taper so you do get a view upwards and the seats are aligned to the windows in Standard (in 1st you'd need to play with it a bit but it's not impossible).

I've talked for years of wanting to see a "Class 344" - the 397 is pretty close.

I suspect CAF would use one of their own gangwayed cabs rather than begging Bombardier to use one of theirs and then mess around getting it to fit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect CAF would use one of their own gangwayed cabs rather than begging Bombardier to use one of theirs and then mess around getting it to fit.

Sorry, half asleep, I did of course mean the Class 196 end.

 

[MackTen]

Setting out a clear business case is obviously the standout barrier here.

What you need is someone like the A1 Trust. Set a small but clear and achievable goal, market the hell out if it, get the finance behind you, build your train, and then reap the filthy lucre.

Network Rail are, AFAIK, obliged to let anyone who can safely run a train, and actually has a train, fair access to the network. There must be plenty of available paths up there in sunny Scolan, to schedule a twice daily out and back from a reasonably convenient launch point.

It would have to be a charter train, it would have to be steam hauled, if not all the way, then the prettiest section, and it would have to use brand new coaching stock, and it would obviously only run from April to October. It would most likely only run Friday to Sunday in the quieter months, but the sky would be the limit in say, August.

Place an order with a reputable builder, for say ten standard coaches, with perhaps two catering vehicles, and you should have enough to cover for maintenance and breakdowns. Any manufacturer worth their salt, would take that business. Biggest single cost would be the glass most likely.

Over the lifetime of the coaches, you could easily set a pricing structure that would cover operating costs and paying down the capital investment. And there's plenty of ways to make additional money here, since you're the only people in the UK with a glass roofed train.

A twice daily service would mean you most likely create an entire tourist ecosystem of it's own, at each stop along your Nile valley of tourism.

And if the only way you can ride behind the next new steam train that comes out of Darlington, is to pay for a ride on the greenhouse express, well, people gonna pay, and pay good money too.

As usual, it would seem to me the biggest likely obstacle, would be the stuffed shirts at the Ministry. And the weather, given climate change for Scotland apparently means more rain. Good thing we are all doing our recycling, right?

 

[yorksrob]

The views in the Hope Valley from Pacers were great. (But it was time for them to go and I really only liked the original 'bus' seats.)

It was rare enough to get the opportunity to set next to a window on one on the Hope valley, as I recall.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It was rare enough to get the opportunity to set next to a window on one on the Hope valley, as I recall.

Certainly, forward facing, in daylight. Hence the Platform 2C scrum at Sheffield as applicable.

 

[43096]

Setting out a clear business case is obviously the standout barrier here.

What you need is someone like the A1 Trust. Set a small but clear and achievable goal, market the hell out if it, get the finance behind you, build your train, and then reap the filthy lucre.

Network Rail are, AFAIK, obliged to let anyone who can safely run a train, and actually has a train, fair access to the network. There must be plenty of available paths up there in sunny Scolan, to schedule a twice daily out and back from a reasonably convenient launch point.

It would have to be a charter train, it would have to be steam hauled, if not all the way, then the prettiest section, and it would have to use brand new coaching stock, and it would obviously only run from April to October. It would most likely only run Friday to Sunday in the quieter months, but the sky would be the limit in say, August.

Place an order with a reputable builder, for say ten standard coaches, with perhaps two catering vehicles, and you should have enough to cover for maintenance and breakdowns. Any manufacturer worth their salt, would take that business. Biggest single cost would be the glass most likely.

Is this serious? Do you have any idea as to the cost of new rolling stock, let alone a one-off design? And you want to use that train for 7 months per year, of which 3 months will only be three days per week.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this serious? Do you have any idea as to the cost of new rolling stock, let alone a one-off design? And you want to use that train for 7 months per year, of which 3 months will only be three days per week.

If someone wanted to do that they'd be best off buying up some Mk4s, presumably for something near scrap value, and rearranging the seats to match the windows. They're not exactly small and the tapered bodyside helps you see up as well as out.

I'm quite looking forward to a ride along the North Wales Coast in them to be honest, even if they do ride worse than a Pacer at 125.

 

[MackTen]

Is this serious? Do you have any idea as to the cost of new rolling stock, let alone a one-off design? And you want to use that train for 7 months per year, of which 3 months will only be three days per week.

Is it any more expensive than building a brand new steam locomotive? For stock that will have a service life of at least thirty years, if not longer?

I've got an engineering background, and in bespoke manufacturing to boot, so yes, I do know exactly of what I speak when it comes to the costs of design engineering.

We live in an age where it is already possible to negotiate a huge discount for placing an order simply for two bespoke steam engine boilers, as opposed to one, so yes, you better believe an order for multiple coaches all of the same design, will take a big chunk off the coast of design and manufacture.

Which is not going to be all that great anyway, given there's not much there that's new here. Would be greatly surprised if the biggest ticket item there, wasn't the glass itself (as opposed to say, the work needed for certification of a new vehicle).

 

[43096]

Is it any more expensive than building a brand new steam locomotive? For stock that will have a service life of at least thirty years, if not longer?

I've got an engineering background, and in bespoke manufacturing to boot, so yes, I do know exactly of what I speak when it comes to the costs of design engineering.

We live in an age where it is already possible to negotiate a huge discount for placing an order simply for two bespoke steam engine boilers, as opposed to one, so yes, you better believe an order for multiple coaches all of the same design, will take a big chunk off the coast of design and manufacture.

Which is not going to be all that great anyway, given there's not much there that's new here.

Well if you're convinced it's a go-er, and you have all that experience, why not go and prove me wrong then?

Would be greatly surprised if the biggest ticket item there, wasn't the glass itself (as opposed to say, the work needed for certification of a new vehicle).

 

[MackTen]

All excellent arguments against the tabled motion.

Has anyone got any substantive objections to my thoughts? Some vague numbers perhaps. Something that shows, in summary balance sheet form, that the nominal ticket price and other revenue streams of the Greenhouse Express Ltd. would be prohibitively expensive, based on a realistic estimate of what a manufacturer would charge for a rake of twelve glass roofed coaches with a design life of thirty years.

 

[E100]

In summary, there's clearly two camps. One which prefers a loco hauled option and one that prefers and enhanced multiple unit. I personally fall into the latter. To me it makes more sense to have all year round stock that runs day in day out on standard services and why not just make it standard stock with a [first class] supplement for a particular coach / seats that offer a particularly good view.

That's not to say though that there isn't a market for the loco hauled stock as well for charters as per. If employed across the network with a focus on the scenic routes, it could well help to bolster the demand for charters as the viability of keeping a large number of Mk1's/2's in mainline service over the next couple of decades. Regular services could be very well received by the international tourist industry during high season which is a part of the market only the Jacobite appears to have captured so far.

 

[Llandudno]

If someone wanted to do that they'd be best off buying up some Mk4s, presumably for something near scrap value, and rearranging the seats to match the windows. They're not exactly small and the tapered bodyside helps you see up as well as out.

I'm quite looking forward to a ride along the North Wales Coast in them to be honest, even if they do ride worse than a Pacer at 125.

Yes, looking forward to the Mk4’s on the north Wales coast.

I wonder if TfW will bother marketing which services will be operated by these sets, perhaps suggesting some ideas for leisure day trips?

It seemed to work on the summer excursions on the Settle-Carlisle line, although the north Wales coast line is not as scenic, there is a better choice of destinations for spending a few hours before returning home.

Mind you knowing TfW a clapped out 150 attached to a 153 will turn up!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes, looking forward to the Mk4’s on the north Wales coast.

I wonder if TfW will bother marketing which services will be operated by these sets, perhaps suggesting some ideas for leisure day trips?

Given that the sets include a kitchen/buffet car I expect the relevant services will have a knife and fork icon in the timetable instead of the normal trolley icon. I was going to say that you could also look for the 1st class icon, but I suspect TfW intend to use first-class-fitted 197s on the other Holyhead-Cardiff services (although I still hope somebody in a position to do something about it will realise the 197s are a bad idea in time to put a stop to wholesale fleet replacement).

 

[Llandudno]

Given that the sets include a kitchen/buffet car I expect the relevant services will have a knife and fork icon in the timetable instead of the normal trolley icon. I was going to say that you could also look for the 1st class icon, but I suspect TfW intend to use first-class-fitted 197s on the other Holyhead-Cardiff services (although I still hope somebody in a position to do something about it will realise the 197s are a bad idea in time to put a stop to wholesale fleet replacement).

I guess those ‘in the know’ will be aware that certain symbols in the timetable will give an indication of which trains will have Mk4 sets.

But to generate additional revenue and possibly help fill off peak trains then these trains need to be marketed differently to encourage discretionary leisure journeys.

I don’t know what the proposed timings will be like but could you promote something like special day returns to Blaenau Ffestiniog, the Chester to Llandudno Junction section operated by a Mk4 then obviously the ubiquitous 150 along the Conwy Valley?

 

[6Gman]

I'll throw in one other element for the equation.

Abstraction.

What if all the glasshouse carriage inserted into a 156 (other options are available) does is attract people who would have travelled anyway? Or, to be strictly accurate, how much of the glasshouse revenue is additional rather than displaced?

 

[MackTen]

My thoughts were more along the lines of, how mad would the tabloid press be at having a "two tier" railway?

PAY EXTRA FOR A VIEW? HANG THE CAPITALIST PIG DOGS.

Sad that these things have to be considered, but they do.

I think it has to be a charter train, simply for the economics to work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll throw in one other element for the equation.

Abstraction.

What if all the glasshouse carriage inserted into a 156 (other options are available) does is attract people who would have travelled anyway? Or, to be strictly accurate, how much of the glasshouse revenue is additional rather than displaced?

If the "glasshouse carriage" was First Class, as would be my proposal, then that would be your answer.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not sure I'd like the idea of a "glasshouse carriage", presumably with attendant sargaent major to shout at the passengers incessantly.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I guess those ‘in the know’ will be aware that certain symbols in the timetable will give an indication of which trains will have Mk4 sets.

But to generate additional revenue and possibly help fill off peak trains then these trains need to be marketed differently to encourage discretionary leisure journeys.

I don’t know what the proposed timings will be like but could you promote something like special day returns to Blaenau Ffestiniog, the Chester to Llandudno Junction section operated by a Mk4 then obviously the ubiquitous 150 along the Conwy Valley?

The sets currently have only 2.5 carriages of standard class capacity (plus a whole coach of first and half a coach of kitchen) so there's not likely to be much spare standard class capacity to fill. Any special marketing will need to be heavily targeted towards first class I expect.

My thoughts were more along the lines of, how mad would the tabloid press be at having a "two tier" railway?

PAY EXTRA FOR A VIEW? HANG THE CAPITALIST PIG DOGS.

Sad that these things have to be considered, but they do.

I think it has to be a charter train, simply for the economics to work.

Not the press reaction, but a less shouty version is how I think about this; I think we should be trying to make the journey pleasant for all pax. That means no first class (or, if there is, then it should be just the same as standard but with 2+1 instead of 2+2 seating and complimentary non-alcoholic drinks) and ALL passengers having decent legroom, a comfortable seat and an unobstructed view. You don't gain the extra revenue to justify a bespoke carriage with a glass roof, but you would massively reduce the risk of passengers thinking 'that was an unpleasant experience, next time I'm going by car' compared to an ironing board with no legroom placed behind a window pillar. Take the best features of classes 158/175/442/444 and put them on routes like the highlands, Cambrian and Settle-Carlisle and I reckon you wouldn't be far off an experience that passengers would recomend to their friends.