Could Northern order more Class 195 units?

[43074]

Given the likely post-Covid financial situation, - on the railways, and in the country, where do you propose that "they" find the money to replace 150s, etc. ??

The same money used to "build back better" post-Covid. Replacing 15x units is not a problem if done by spending the money on electrification which NR/the industry has already recommended in the traction decarbonisation strategy. Spending money on a new build of DMUs would obviously be daft.

 

[Bevan Price]

The same money used to "build back better" post-Covid. Replacing 15x units is not a problem if done by spending the money on electrification which NR/the industry has already recommended in the traction decarbonisation strategy. Spending money on a new build of DMUs would obviously be daft.

In an ideal world, maybe. But the financial situation is likely to set back electrification / decarbonisation programmes for, I suspect, at least 5-10 years. Boris & co. can tell us what they hope to happen, but when the treasury tells him (or successor) that there is no money, "idealistic projects" will be "quietly" delayed.

 

[Anonymous10]

Again, what problem are people trying to solve?

More capacity/ longer trains can be resolved with the numbers of second hand 150/156/158s coming free at EMR/TfW (and even the Welsh 175s and any TPE 185s freed up) - no need for brand new trains.

Scrapping the 150s may keep people on here happy but isn't going to add seats - if anything you want to be keeping existing trains if capacity is so important.

A more standard fleet sounds good but after getting rid of the token number of 153/155s the only other stock to easily get shut of would be the three coach 170s - is that what people want? You'd need to build a large number of 195s before you could replace all of the 150/156s - hundreds of carriages (even if no additional capacity was required and you were just doing a like-for-like replacement).

Faster journey times with better acceleration sounds nice in theory but I'd wager that paths would still be timed for 150s most of the time, since you couldn't guarantee that one wouldn't turn up (given the way that people like to talk about a "random unit generator" and the large amount of inter-working of Northern duties), so the paths would remain the same

It just feels like people are trying to create a "get rid of 150s" bandwagon, now that the Pacers have gone, and the 150s are the lowliest trains in the fleet, but haven't managed to find a coherent argument as to why we need brand new diesel trains to replace them



I appreciate that they're not as plush as you've have wanted but they were upgraded to comply.

I could understand this argument if we were having it in 2017/2018 and the idea of new trains was going to be compared with the cost/disruption of taking Sprinters out of service so that money could be spent on upgrading them... but a decision was taken to "make do and mend"



I agree that electrification (and amending the timetable to stop running service so far under the wires, e.g. Southport to Hazel Grove) should be the solution. Building pure-diesel trains (like the 195s in the title of this thread) should never be the solution.

We'd be better looking at lines with a high number of diesels under the wires, or lines where we could tweak the timetables to significantly reduce the amount of diesels once electrified - e.g. I'd be happy with electrification from Knaresborough to Armley in Leeds so that the four trains per hour from Leeds to Harrogate could be electric run (with an hourly diesel shuttle from Harrogate to York) - I'd be happy if we gave up on running through trains from Barrow/ Windermere to Manchester - I'd be happy if we gave up on running so many through trains from Carlisle/ Lancaster to Leeds - I'd be happy if we stopped running so many DMUs through to Manchester Airport - but such suggestions always get dismissed from people who "prefer direct trains" - much easier to spend a lot of carbon on building shiny new trains than inconvenience small numbers of people who want the luxury of a direct train.

we still must remember that the 150s are nearly 40 years old and the TFW examples ordered in 2017-8 will not be in service for another 2 years the 150s will ultimately need a replacement soon due to corrosion ect im a fan of the 150s so i would say that they should start looking at it

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if the Class 15x fleet lasts a bit longer than the 1st generation DMU's - they certainly seem in very healthy condition. I don't recall ever seeing one break down. One 75mph (TfW) service was cancelled I caught in January 2019.

I think new 195's should replace the Northern 170's as other operators (particularly CrossCountry as well) are likely to appreciate less 2-car trains and more 3-car trains at least. That way, you've got 1 type of 100mph diesel trains in the Northern fleet.

 

[Andyh82]

Its more than the 2040 agreement. Ordering diesel trains looks very bad in terms of climate change, especially given the complaints about HS2.

The best solution is simple, electrify.

Could they get away with lengthening some 195s, so technically they haven't brought extra DMUs even though in reality they have.

Extending the 2 car 195s to 4 car would mean they could be used in the many many places where 2x2 car units are used, especially around Manchester where this seems to be the formation of choice on many lines.

Talking about Northern's fleet and how many types they've got in use. Despite the 150s being old, replacing them isn't going to be an easy task considering how many of them there are, so maybe they should look at it from a different view point...

Are 153s still supposed to be leaving, if they are maybe 155s should go as well.
Secondly maybe introducing 170s into the mix was a bad idea, despite how modern the units are. Maybe a swap with 158s from Scotrail or EMR would be better.

Therefore Northern would be left with just 150, 156, 158 & 195s in diesel terms, and no 'micro fleets' as there are substantial numbers of all of them

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could they get away with lengthening some 195s, so technically they haven't brought extra DMUs even though in reality they have.

Given the high performance of 195s, could an unpowered coach be added? Could later perhaps be moved into 3-car 331s instead?

 

[Energy]

Extending the 2 car 195s to 4 car would mean they could be used in the many many places where 2x2 car units are used, especially around Manchester where this seems to be the formation of choice on many lines.

Around Manchester should be electrified. I don't think they lines which can't justify electrification can justify a 4 car 195 although I would extend the 2 cars to 3 cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Around Manchester should be electrified. I don't think they lines which can't justify electrification can justify a 4 car 195 although I would extend the 2 cars to 3 cars.

An option might be to extend them all by a coach. I think they should have ordered 3s and 4s anyway.

 

[Energy]

An option might be to extend them all by a coach. I think they should have ordered 3s and 4s anyway.

4s is going to be difficult, branch lines which can't justify electrification can almost certainly not justify a 4 car DMU (looking to possible future electrification and cascades).

 

[Bletchleyite]

4s is going to be difficult, branch lines which can't justify electrification can almost certainly not justify a 4 car DMU (looking to possible future electrification and cascades).

Extra 195 coaches could, when the time comes, be taken out of the 195s, have the engines removed and be put into 331s as unpowered trailers. Some modifications would of course be needed, though I doubt they would be prohibitive.