East Coast May 2011 Timetable

[Bluebell]

Can anyone direct me to the new East Coast timetable commencing in May 2011? Have heard a rumour that East Coast are commencing a withdrawal of service from Dunbar from this date and would be interested to confirm or refute the rumours.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Are you after the East Coast Eureka timetable ?
This might help: http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/Global/Eureka/PDFs/DraftEurekatimetable.pdf

 

[Bluebell]

Thanks......according to this draft timetable Dunbar is still served. We'll just have to wait and see - it was a member of East Coast train crew that had said the 07:38 service to Edinburgh Waverley was being withdrawn. Only time will tell!

 

[91101]

0738 would be the 0625 1S01 NCL - GLC, which has been full and standing from Dunbar in my experience, but empties at EDB. I doubt it would be being cut in total, but probably axed to GLC.

 

[Lee_Again]

Are you after the East Coast Eureka timetable ?
This might help: http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/Global/Eureka/PDFs/DraftEurekatimetable.pdf

That timetable is now out of date so should be ignored.

 

[shinkansen1966]

That timetable is now out of date so should be ignored.

Do we have a new one to look at ?

 

[swt_passenger]

Do we have a new one to look at ?

No, but much of what ORR has published since suggests that the times won't change much following the withdrawal of the Lincoln services, eg the existing times shown at Newark on the way to/from Lincoln still stand.

ORR seem to have caught a cold with early publication of draft timetables, with the media going off on one using incomplete info, I think they'll be pretty cautious with publication in the future.

They've certainly said a different policy will be used for open access applications for the WCML, which is going on at the moment...

 

[shinkansen1966]

They've certainly said a different policy will be used for open access applications for the WCML, which is going on at the moment...

Open access for the WCML ? How will that work ? Virgin needs millions each year from DfT to run their services. If they can't make money, how can an open access operator. W&SR are banned from taking business from London-bound Virgin stops because Virgin would loose passengers and therefore ££££.

 

[rail-britain]

Open access for the WCML ? How will that work ? Virgin needs millions each year from DfT to run their services. If they can't make money, how can an open access operator. W&SR are banned from taking business from London-bound Virgin

From the next West Coast franchise open access operators are being invited for available paths, which could see at least one in 2012 and a further one in 2013

Due to the "ban" that is why WSR use London Marylebone

 

[PR1Berske]

From the next West Coast franchise open access operators are being invited for available paths, which could see at least one in 2012 and a further one in 2013

Due to the "ban" that is why WSR use London Marylebone

This is probably the subject of another thread (...well, actually yes it is...)......where abouts on the WCML would open access operators run?

 

[shinkansen1966]

And more to the point, how would an open access operator make any money on the WCML ? Virgin need subsidies, as it is.

The only reason why GC and Hull trains looked into running ECML services is because they can make money. They're not doing it for charity.

 

[YorkshireBear]

They are not going to run virgin routes, they see an oppurtunity. Alliance rail is main one take a look at GNWR http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/

They seem to be very heavily used (virgin) how can they not make money?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/

They seem to be very heavily used (virgin) how can they not make money?

Do you mean 'How can VT lose passengers when their trains are so full?' ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

no people said that VT needed loads of funding to run services, how when there trains are so full?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

no people said that VT needed loads of funding to run services, how when there trains are so full?

Erm, someone else probs knows, not me! <Blends into background> i'm delightfully random today

 

[swt_passenger]

Open access for the WCML ? How will that work ? Virgin needs millions each year from DfT to run their services. If they can't make money, how can an open access operator. W&SR are banned from taking business from London-bound Virgin stops because Virgin would loose passengers and therefore ££££.

Moderation of Competition protection ends with the current franchise in Apr 2012. ORR called for initial track access applications back in May, by the end of Jun they had this to report:

Following our letter of 14 May 2010, inviting the industry to declare any aspirations for new or amended access rights on the WCML, we have received 19 aspirations for rights over that part of the network which will be considered simultaneously with the application from DfT.

 

[tbtc]

no people said that VT needed loads of funding to run services, how when there trains are so full?

Confuses me.

Virgin need a two coach extension to their trains, because they are so busy...

...they charge eye-watering fares...

...yet they are still taking money in subsidy - that TOC should surely be paying millions back to the Treasury?

 

[swt_passenger]

Confuses me.

Virgin need a two coach extension to their trains, because they are so busy...

...they charge eye-watering fares...

...yet they are still taking money in subsidy - that TOC should surely be paying millions back to the Treasury?

It's only heavily subsidised because DfT choose to make Virgin pay Network Rail's vastly increased WCML track charges. They could just as easlily have altered things so that Virgin paid a premium when they renegotiated the franchise following the period on a fixed price management contract. All complicated financial sleight of hand really...

 

[Greenback]

The phrase 'smoke and mirrors' comes to mind whenever I think of the privatised railway!

 

[shinkansen1966]

All complicated financial sleight of hand really...

IIRC back in 1997, Railtrack initially quoted c£2.5 billion to upgrade WCML. The cost could have been recovered through extra ticket sales through the Virgin Trains. In the end, WCML cost nearer £9 billion to upgrade. So how was the extra £6.5 billion odd to be met ?

Over the years, the government could have just written a cheque for the difference, and paid Railtrack / Network Rail. But that would have looked like a straight forward public sector bailout of a private sector financial mistake. After all, you don't ask the govt for extra cash, when your builders go over their original quote?

No, what the government did was tell Network Rail to recover this extra money by increasing track access charges (as mentioned here). So these track access charges (ie tolls) for using the WCML shot up. Now Virgin could either put up its fares to pay for the extra WCML tolls. Instead the government gives an annual subsidy to Virgin trains to make up the difference between the WCML tolls which it pays to Network Rail and what get in ticket sales.

So if the tolls for using the WCML are so high, how could open access operator expect to make any money ?

 

[swt_passenger]

So if the tolls for using the WCML are so high, how could open access operator expect to make any money ?

Because OA operators pay completely different and much lower charges to normal TOCs. See also earlier GNER criticism of GC etc etc.

If everyone's track access charges per mile per vehicle were the same, as you rightly suggest there'd probably be no open access...

 

[bicbasher]

Can anyone confirm if the direct services to Lincoln which are due to start in May have been axed?

 

[swt_passenger]

Can anyone confirm if the direct services to Lincoln which are due to start in May have been axed?

Yes, definitely, all except for one up in the morning and one down in the evening peak:

Eureka How-it-will-affect-you/

[ECML Co] ... will instead use its existing trains to operate a modified service pattern which will include a single direct service from Lincoln. This service is planned to depart Lincoln at 07.22, and arrive at King’s Cross at 09.21 (calling at Newark, Grantham, Peterborough, Stevenage, and London King’s Cross). During the evening peak, a single direct service is planned to leave King’s Cross at 19.06, and arrive at Lincoln at 21.00

The decision resulted in the ORR going back out to the industry asking for proposals for better use of the unused paths, nothing came of that though as there is no 125 mph stock available. This has been discussed in a few other threads.

 

[GNERman]

as reported NUMEROUS times, all but 1 Lincoln service are to be withdrawn to Newark...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

You might enjoy reading this correspondence between Ganesh Sittampalam and East Coast Main Line Company Limited about his Freedom of Information request for the Working Timetables after the Summer 2010 changes.

(Such a simple request becomes a very convoluted argument for refusal to disclose. Also, see if you can spot the sentence which refers to Network Rail, National Rail and British Rail)

18 July 2010

Dear East Coast Main Line Company Limited,

Please could I have a copy of all the current working timetables (i.e. after the changes for Summer 2010) for the East Coast Main Line?
Yours faithfully

9th August 2010

We refer to your request dated 18 July 2010 for a copy of the Working Timetable - Summer 2010

We confirm that we hold a copy of this document which was provided to East Coast Main Line Company Limited by Network Rail ("NR") on a confidential basis. We have consulted with NR who have confirmed that we hold the document on their behalf and they have not consented to its release.

Accordingly the information you have requested falls within the definition of exempt information as defined in Section 41 of the FOIA and is therefore exempt from disclosure.

13th August 2010

I question whether this information really was supplied in confidence. Given its nature, it must have been developed by you and Network Rail jointly and I question whether you really did "receive it from them". Does your contract with them have any explicit confidentiality clauses about this information?

I also cannot see what harm might be caused to Network Rail. The law of confidentiality has a public interest defence, and I would suggest that the public interest in releasing this information (which would allow the public to scrutinise the workings of the publicly funded railway more thoroughly) means that it should be released.

Please see Information Tribunal case EA/2006/0014 (Derry City Council vs The Information Commissioner) for more background on these arguments.

I would also suggest that you should have considered this request under the Environmental Information Regulations, given that it relates to the presence of trains at a location at a given time, and thus the noise, emissions and other environmental impacts of that presence. If the information does relate to emissions (e.g. in respect of diesel trains) then there is no confidentiality exemption at all. If not, then you need to identify a legitimate economic interest that it would protect.

9th September 2010
Internal Review of Freedom of Information Request

The Review has been undertaken by Elaine Holt, Chairman of East Coast Mainline Limited and Chief Executive of Directly Operated Railways Limited. As the review coordinator, it is my responsibility to inform you of the outcome of the review.

. . . .

I now deal with the specific points in your email.

Freedom of information:
"I question whether this information was really supplied in confidence ... did you really receive it from them?"

"...Does your contract with them have any explicit confidentiality clauses about this information?"

The working timetables are documents which are prepared and compiled by Network Rail. The timetables are at all times the property of Network Rail and are provided to train operating companies on a confidential basis. In the case of East Coast Mainline it was provided clearly marked by Network Rail "Confidential - not for publication"
Following your email of 13th August, Network Rail has re-affirmed that the information is confidential, and that this is the basis on which the working timetable was provided to East Coast Main Line. In particular, Network Rail states "The WTT is a document we supply to the TOCs on a confidential basis and therefore we do not consent to its release".
. . . .
Following this review, Elaine Holt has concluded that the response dated 9 August 2010 is in her view correct and that she believes the confidentiality test is met and that this exemption has been applied correctly and no additional information should be disclosed.

Environmental Information:
"I would also suggest that you should consider this request under the environmental information regulations ..."

If the information is environmental information which falls to be dealt with under the Environmental Information Regulations 2004 ("EIR"), we consider the information to fall within exception 22(5)(d) of EIR. This provision states that a public authority may refuse to disclose information to the extent that its disclosure would adversely affect the confidentiality of commercial or industrial information where such confidentiality is provided by law to protect a legitimate economic interest.

The information in question is confidential commercial information. It is confidential to Network Rail for the same reasons as applied in relation to the s41 exemption in FOIA, and to protect National Rail's legitimate economic interests in maintaining, managing and protecting its ownership and operation of the British rail infrastructure. In particular, working timetables are prepared by National Rail to ensure that the collective rail services of individual train operating companies ultimately achieves the relevant rail network coverage at overall national level. Neither Network Rail nor any of the other train operating companies are subject to freedom of information laws and these organisations are therefore not obliged to publish the information, thus disclosure would be putting East Coast Main Line in a different position to all the other parties concerned. This would detrimentally affect East Coast Main Line's relationships with Network Rail and other train operating companies both individually and collectively.
. . . .
The public interest in transparency of Directly Operated Railway's dealings is recognised, however the greater public interest lies in preserving confidentiality to ensure that National Rail is not prevented or hindered in maintaining the relevant national rail network coverage. Consideration has also been given to the availability of the public timetable, and the vast range of specialist rail user and action groups available through which timetable issues can be comprehensively aired.

Elaine has also reviewed this analysis and and concludes that if the information falls to be environmental information under EIR, then no additional information should be disclosed on the basis of the exception at 12(5)(d)EIR.

He hasn't given up!

9 September 2010

Could you confirm whether Elaine considered my point about emissions, namely that environmental information which relates to emissions cannot be exempted on the grounds of confidentiality?
Having reviewed the ICO's guidance on this subject, it seems that anything relating to noise falls under this heading.

To be fair to East Coast, they are quite correct in stating that they are unique among the TOCs "Neither Network Rail nor any of the other train operating companies are subject to freedom of information laws", which does put them in an extraordiarily different position to the others. I believe that the ORR, Transport for London, BTP and of course the DfT are subject to FoI requests, but none of the other TOCs; what other railway bodies are subject to this obligation?

Oh, and one more thing, just who do you think they might be considering in this remark : "the vast range of specialist rail user and action groups available through which timetable issues can be comprehensively aired"

 

[Greenback]

I don't think any other rail bodies are subject to the FOI Act. I assume NR allow the publication of old working timetables though?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'll give no apology for resuming this old thread, because Ganesh Sittampalam, the man trying hard to get East Coast to release their Working Timetables didn't let the matter rest with their refusal (2 posts up).
He's succeeded!

He made a complaint to the Information Commissioner, and then . . . . .
. . . this about turn by East Coast:-

18 November 2010

Dear Mr Sittampalam

I refer to our previous correspondence regarding the above and your complaint to the Information Commissioner. You will recall that we declined to provide the information requested on the basis that it was provided to us by Network Rail on a confidential basis and that Network Rail did not consent to its discolure. Following your request for an internal review of this decision, the view was re-affiremed by Network Rail.

After further discussions with Network Rail I am pleased to inform you that they have now consented to our disclosing the information to you. A copy is therefore attached. I have also forwarded a copy of this response to the Information Commissioner.

I trust this now concludes the matter, but please contact me if you require further assistance.

Yours faithfully

For and on behalf of East Coast Main Line Company Limited

[These timetables can be see through the links below]
He's pleased, but still wants more . . .

19 November 2010
Dear Enquiries,

Thanks for the disclosure. Could you confirm that you will also release future working timetables on request for as long as you're a public company? If so I'd be happy to withdraw my complaint to the Commissioner.

Yours sincerely,

Ganesh Sittampalam

22 November 2010

Dear Mr Sittampalam

Thank you for your email dated 19 November 2010. We can confirm that on receipt of a valid request under the Freedom of Information Act we will release future working timetables on the same basis as the information provided on 18 November 2010. Any future request will be dependent on Network Rail's continuing consent to disclosure of this information and there being no substantive changes to the confidential or commercial nature of the content of the WTTs.

Yours faithfully

Directly Operated Railways Limited
East Coast Main Line Company Limited

Here are links to those WorkingTimetables:-
SO WTT Scot
SO WTT

SUN WTT Scot
SUN WTT

SX WTT Scot
SX WTT

I hope they might be of interest to some on here.

 

[junglejames]

Nowhere in all those emails do they refer to British Rail.
They refer to British rail infastructure. Note the lack of a capital 'r' in rail. Basically they are refering to the rail infastructure within Britain.

He certainly never gave up did he.

Question on the Eureka timetable. Are the extra York services running still? If so, have they sorted out the extra stock needed. Last I heard they never liked their 180s.

 

[swt_passenger]

They definitely aren't using the 180s, this was confirmed by ECMLCo some months back, and they aren't getting any extra stock. The new timetable is covered by more intensive diagramming, I included a link to their press release in September earlier on this page, post #23.

There's subsequently been a suggestion that an EMT HST might be transferred to the ECML permanently, but that is very recent, so it ought not to be essential to the new timetable.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

True, no 180s but possibly that solitary new 11-car Pendolino (which would perhpas be allocated to the one-a-day headline service of London-Edinburgh in 4 hours - that will require a lot of clear headway in the timetables !).

Many details have still to be released and there are lots of rumours, though we can be sure that we won't see the regular services to Lincoln (as hinted earlier) nor the Glasgow runs (as at present).