Normanton-Leeds via Wakefield Kirkgate

[tony_mac]

National Rail Enquires Service are not a brand name for National Riail or ATOC, they are a franchised company, who the current franchise is I don't know but they were run by Ventura and ClientLogic when I left

Who the ATOC get to run their business is their problem, if they don't like it then they can award the contract to somebody else.
Employing another company to do part of your business, and then trying to blame them for mistakes is ridiculous.

Why should the TOC's carry the can for another companies mistake.

Because they, collectively, are responsible for any other companies that they choose to employ.

NRE is part of the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC).

Obviously, I didn't just make that quote up.

If you are going Normanton to Wakefield, then back through Normanton - that must be more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, as it's 6 miles to get back to where you started from!

 

[yorkie]

- and definitive guide to validity is completely unclear (I can't find anything to suggest one way or another whether you are allowed to double back on routes whose total length is not more than three miles more than the shortest length) ?

The only restrictions I can find that prevent doubling back are when:
- the origin & destination share a routeing point; or
- when looking up mapped routes
In which case doubling-back is prohibited unless
- You are doubling back within a routeing group (see the Routeing Guide or previous threads for details); or
- An easement allows it

I see nothing that prevents doubling back in a case such as this, and there is nothing to gain by refusing to allow such tickets to be used via this route (the fare is the same; the ticket is valid via Wakefield without question and is valid via Woodlesford without question, the only debate is going via both Wakefield and Woodlesford so it's a doubling back principle issue and nothing else).

 

[AeroSpace]

If you are going Normanton to Wakefield, then back through Normanton - that must be more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, as it's 6 miles to get back to where you started from!

True, I hadn't realised that. This makes the three mile rule irrelevant, so actually it's not a permitted route in the guide. I'll restate my argument:

- TOC booking websites say it is valid. So does NRE, who claim to be 'the definitive source of information'.
- NRG says it is invalid. So do the guards, who decide whether to accept the ticket.

Still farcical.

The acid test is: would this have been a 'reasonable route' if that were still the criterion?
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The only restrictions I can find that prevent doubling back are when:
- the origin & destination share a routeing point ...

Surely Leeds Group is a shared routeing point?

 

[Anvil1984]

If you look back at my posts you will see I have stated that I am talking about a generalisation if NRES was wtong and the guard was definately right. In this case Avantix would probably also come up with that route without prompting so there in my mind would be no issue.

However to pick another route which is on my patch and I actually know so I can describe it in my head, if NRES told a passenger (via entering different things) by any means that they could go from Halifax changing at Hebden Bridge to get to Mytholmroyd and the passenger went to the booking office and bought the Halifax - Mytholmroyd single, I queried it and they gave me the print out I would probably let that off with a your not actually allowed to do that but if they got on the train and went to buy a ticket off me it would be a Halifax - Hebden Bridge ticket sold with the passenger informed to complain to NRES.

You may not like it and I'm afraid I may have to agree to disagree on this. In the original case the guard was wrong and the complaint should go against him, but if the guard is right

The Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) who run National Rail Enquires have confirmed that it will be outsourcing the operation to India effective from March next year.

Ventura, who currently handle the contract, are now entering a consultative period with 100 affected staff at their Yorkshire based contact centre.

 

[tony_mac]

The Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) who run National Rail Enquires

That seems quite clear - the Association of Train Operating Companies are responsible for what NRE tells the public, as they run the service.
Therefore the Train Operating companies should be held responsible for whatever NRE says.
If they don't like it, they should change it, and not penalise passengers because they can't manage to run it properly.

 

[Anvil1984]

Normanton is part of Leeds Group then Pontefract Group then Wakefield Group, so should technically doubling back not be allowed where a direct route exists

 

[yorkie]

Surely Leeds Group is a shared routeing point?

True, but why use Leeds Group for Normanton? The fare to Normanton is the same as to Wakefield, so Wakefield is a valid RP, so you don't have to use Leeds Group. Anyway I feel that is irrelevant because, in any case, we don't have to look up appropriate RPs as that's the stage where we are looking to determine if there are mapped routes, as the shortest routes are valid without looking at the mapped routes.

Permitted routes are:
- The shortest route (including routes up to 3 miles longer)
- Mapped routes
- Direct trains

In this case we are debating if it is valid on the first point, I agree that the other two points don't make it valid via this route.
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Normanton is part of Leeds Group then Pontefract Group then Wakefield Group, so should technically doubling back not be allowed where a direct route exists

Normanton isn't part of Leeds Group, you have a choice of 3 RPs, depending on the fare check rule. Wakefield meets the fare check rule. However doubling back is not permitted on the basis of mapped routes - but no-one is arguing on that basis.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you are going Normanton to Wakefield, then back through Normanton - that must be more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, as it's 6 miles to get back to where you started from!

Actually it isn't...

Firstly, collybs pointed out that the shortest route is actually via Wakefield and Outwood. The actual route taken, even with doubling back, is less than 3 miles longer than that.

Secondly, the assumption that double backing 6 miles means that you must be going more than 3 miles further only works if the train that you would have got that didn't double back goes via the same route as the train that you get that did involve doubling back. This is, in fact, not the case. The 'direct' trains from Normanton to Leeds, go via Castleford. Trains reverse at Castleford. The train that was taken instead goes non-stop between Kirkgate and Leeds, avoiding Castleford.
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BTW is it normal for people in West Yorkshire to say "Kerr-gut" instead of Kirkgate? I heard that the other day, it just didn't sound right!

 

[Anvil1984]

Sorry everything is getting blurry as my glasses are missing and my brains starting to freeze on that one

I still stick though by the fact that the guard if asked to sell a ticket on board should do so correctly and as it should be (he was wrong in this circumstance but in general), if NRES is wrong the complaint should go against them, if the TOC giving the information is wrong likewise, if it goes to either one and the other is worng there are mechanisms for passing it on between them internally. If the ticket has already been sold incorrectly (happens more on long distance journeys) then if they have the printout thats fine so long as its the one ate the end showing the prices, otherwise it might be telling people that you need two tickets for that journey on the next unprinted screen

I also stick by the fact that National Rail Enquires Services Limited is not in house and not directly ran by ATOC however agree they handle to contract and the can for it,

And Yorkie, Yep Kerr-gut sounds right, just like West-gut, but the North Yorkshire people don't like Arra-gut

 

[yorkie]

Sorry everything is getting blurry as my glasses are missing and my brains starting to freeze on that one.

It's not easy, but to make it easier consider this: forget everything to do with mapped routes (that means ignoring routeing points) and just consider mileage alone, and then it is clear it's valid as per the shortest route rule.

The other stuff about mapped routes just confuses things, others brought them up and I have tried to explain why they are not applicable in this case. It's like the topic about an excess where people then bring fare allocations into the mix, it just confuses things, this is due to people being confused because the fares system is incredibly complex. I get confused sometimes, we all do, it's impossible not to on some issues.

I can understand having a rule not allowing doubling back when it comes to mapped routes (with the various exceptions) as otherwise that would allow some truly daft routes, but when calculating the shortest route (and up to 3 miles shorter) I feel that there is no need for such a rule, as if you double back too much it's no longer going to be within 3 miles of the shortest route - so that takes care of it!!

 

[Anvil1984]

I used to work with the sodding thing for 2 years (still prone to making errors on it as you can tell), preferred the old format.

As for the 3 mile rule not a lot of guards will know about that one, it wasnt one on the top of my head plus we don't know mileages between stations really just how long it takes (we aren't issued with any form of NRTT) usually just let common sense dictate

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I have to say I tend to disagree with the majority of assessments on this one.

Normanton and Leeds share common routeing point - Leeds Group. The Routeing Guide Instructions state that if the origin and destination share a common routeing point, then the permitted route is direct via the shortest distance over which a regular passenger train service operates. Doubling back is not permitted.

There is a regular, at least hourly, service direct from Normanton to Leeds.

I can find no mention in the Instruction document about this "3 mile" rule to which everyone refers. Perhaps someone could direct me to the actual wording in a document somewhere which says this?

I fail to see any information which says you can double back on this journey.

I still say that NRES is wrong, the journey completed by the OP was not valid with one ticket.

 

[yorkie]

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/nrg_detail.pdf

Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route. Journeys following a route given by the Routeing Guide are following a permitted route.

There is no need to "permit" doubling back when calculating the shortest route as there is nothing that forbids it when determining the shortest routes.

There is no need to look at routeing points, unless you are looking to determine mapped routes. When you get to that stage, you can select Wakefield as a RP or you can select Leeds as a RP, as the fare from Wakefield is the same. When there is a RP "in common" it effectively says that there are no mapped routes ("If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles. Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains." also "If there is a common
routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest distance between them which has a regular scheduled train service whether or not it passes through that routeing point. It is also a permitted route if the journey can be made by direct trains from the origin to the common routeing point and from the common routeing point to the destination.") however this has no effect on the validity of the shortest route, it's just saying there are no mapped routes, but we don't need to look for mapped routes. However none of this looking up RPs is required, as we do not need to look at mapped routes. It isn't valid as a mapped route to double back, but it doesn't need to be.

Mapped routes are valid in addition to the shortest route and routes up to 3 miles longer than the shortest route.

The lack of mapped routes in no way reduces the validity of the shortest route or routes up to 3 miles longer than the shortest route, (or direct trains) it just means there are no additional routes.

The vast majority of the RG deals with mapped routes. Very little information is given about shortest routes, and the information that there is, is hidden away and dotted about all over the place. There isn't a section called "Determining the shortest routes" - but there should be!

 

[OwlMan]

I can find no mention in the Instruction document about this "3 mile" rule to which everyone refers. Perhaps someone could direct me to the actual wording in a document somewhere which says this?

See NRG Glossary

Common Routeing Point Rule
When a journey is between stations that have one or more common
routeing points, the permitted journey takes the route of shortest
distance or any route no more than 3 miles longer, whether or not
they pass through the common routeing point. Also permitted are
journeys that use direct trains to and from the common routeing
point.

Peter

 

[tony_mac]

I still say that NRES is wrong, the journey completed by the OP was not valid with one ticket.

I think you may be right; but as NRES - and every other rail website, including Northern Rail's, say it is valid, so it should be accepted.

 

[Waverley125]

just checked my ticket, still in my wallet. Because i spent a few minutes arguing with the guard we were actually getting into Kgate when i bought my ticket, so only bought a Wakefield-Leeds single, which definitely isn't valid and is the same price as a Normanton-Leeds single.

The trouble is, the rest of the group (having already bought Normanton-Leeds returns were then made to buy Normanton-Wakefield again, even though this was (I think) invalid as the train from Kgate didn't call at Normanton.

What this does show is that there needs to be much clearer rules on routeing. As has been mentioned, this seems a perfectly 'reasonable' route to most people, especially as changing in Wakefield would make it valid. Yet York-Leeds via Harrogate (over twice as long in time) is valid. Weird.

 

[Anvil1984]

just checked my ticket, still in my wallet. Because i spent a few minutes arguing with the guard we were actually getting into Kgate when i bought my ticket, so only bought a Wakefield-Leeds single, which definitely isn't valid and is the same price as a Normanton-Leeds single.

The trouble is, the rest of the group (having already bought Normanton-Leeds returns were then made to buy Normanton-Wakefield again, even though this was (I think) invalid as the train from Kgate didn't call at Normanton.

What this does show is that there needs to be much clearer rules on routeing. As has been mentioned, this seems a perfectly 'reasonable' route to most people, especially as changing in Wakefield would make it valid. Yet York-Leeds via Harrogate (over twice as long in time) is valid. Weird.

York - Harrogatte - Leeds is slightly clearer as thats a direct train (even though we dont advertise it as that) so theres no going past any stations from the journeys origin