Proposals to reopen Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton

[Irascible]

Opening to Okehampton provides a fair portion of the benefit for much lower cost. Electric buses, properly integrated to the rail ticketing system and timetable could do the rest in terms of connectivity for about 1% of the cost. That’s cheap. Also much quicker to deliver (months rather than a decade). And no environmental issues.

While I mostly agree with that, it does send everyone from the area to Exeter - which doesn't do a lot for Plymouth regeneration. There isn't a great answer to the latter, unfortunately - even if you connected Okehampton straight to Plymouth anywhere from NE Cornwall ( which is the main catchment we're talking about - there is hardly any population in NW Devon ) would go on a huge dogleg via Okehampton. Electric bus all the way from Launceston to Plymouth doesn't sound an attractive alternative to driving all the way & enhancing congestion, other than not having to find somewhere to park.

Someone mentioned not being allowed to widen the M5 bridge over the WoE - I have seen in the past motorway bridge projects that do one carriageway at a time, I'm not sure if you can still do that but you may not have to close the motorway completely.

Ok fair enough. About the buses though, are we not supposed to be advocating rail and pushing for it? I don’t know about you but I hate rural buses and to be honest, I would rather get the train. If there’s not train I’m driving. I will never get a bus over driving or the train and I feel like many people think the same way.

I won't get one over 20-30 mins ( much tested growing up when rural buses were all there was ), they start to make me physically miserable any longer than that - which makes where I am now pretty irritating - as does coach travel full stop but better the option than no option. We are not going to see rails to all the population centres between Newquay & Barnstaple unless there is a sudden magic bullet, and I'd think we're more likely to go back to riding horses than get one.

Tram trains might be the answer at Tiverton. Enabling an Exeter Central to Tiverton Parkway service with "tramway" sections in Tiverton and from Willand to Tiverton Parkway.

It is little known that before the Southern lost control of their lines west of Salisbury they were planning a major diesel depot at Exmouth Junction with "thumpers" for the east Devon branches and full width "Hastings" units for the main line.

Part of this plan was a through "Thumper" service from Exmouth to Tiverton via the Exe Valley.

Huh, well then - ideas that should have been tried, at least.

You *might* get a tram-train from Exeter to the site of the halt at West Exe ( now surrounded by houses ) by going round the back of the industrial estate ( or even down the road in front that's built on the formation, it's not used often ), getting to the bus station which is what you'd really want would mean either crossing the A396, the Exe, and the A396 again ( somehow squeezing through a cutting with the A396 ), or just running down the road itself, which I suspect is not going to win friends. I doubt anyone would use a meandering service via the Jct.

 

[BayPaul]

While I mostly agree with that, it does send everyone from the area to Exeter - which doesn't do a lot for Plymouth regeneration. There isn't a great answer to the latter, unfortunately - even if you connected Okehampton straight to Plymouth anywhere from NE Cornwall ( which is the main catchment we're talking about - there is hardly any population in NW Devon ) would go on a huge dogleg via Okehampton. Electric bus all the way from Launceston to Plymouth doesn't sound an attractive alternative to driving all the way & enhancing congestion, other than not having to find somewhere to park.

If you want rail to contribute to a regeneration of Plymouth, there are a lot of better options than connecting to Okehampton. Opening a station in Plympton, and running a 30 min frequency commuter service to there and Ivybridge would be relatively cheap, and could easily get cars off the roads. Tavistock wouldn't be bad, though I suspect an improved bus service would be very much better and a lot cheaper, particularly given that the other major issue in Plymouth is the station is so poorly located.

The new 2 tph service into Cornwall will also make a big difference to the attractiveness of a leisure or commuter trip into the city from Cornwall.

Any speeding up of the routes to London and Bristol would also go a long way, and the LSWR route doesn't achieve that - a Dawlish diversion would, and I guess that electrification would as well, or line speed improvements on the Berks and Hants, or the Devon banks.

If any more trains could be found for Crosscountry, then extending all of their services to Plymouth would also help.

I quite like the idea of extending some SWR services to Plymouth, to give direct trains to places like Salisbury and Basingstoke, and so better connections to the South East - I'm pretty sure that there is space to fit them along the existing line though, with a reversal in St Davids, which also gives the advantage of connecting Newton Abbott and Totnes.

NE Cornwall is pretty sparsely populated, so I don't see why connecting to it will help regenerate Plymouth. Launceston is really the only decent sized town, and there are no sensible rail routes to get there, a decent quality bus would make much more sense.

 

[21C101]

Opening to Okehampton provides a fair portion of the benefit for much lower cost. Electric buses, properly integrated to the rail ticketing system and timetable could do the rest in terms of connectivity for about 1% of the cost. That’s cheap. Also much quicker to deliver (months rather than a decade). And no environmental issues.

We've been waiting for that ever since BR first started closing branch lines in the 50's.

A properly integrated bus link, with integrated ticketing and branding, with minimum service requirements so it didn't cease at 5pm could be as seamless as a branch train service. It could even be cross platform like the temporary Heathrow Junction was.

Coaches with table seats could and should be used for longer routes. You could even have a first class section (as one coach route from Oxford to Heathrow does).



Alas I don't think I will see it happen in my lifetime.

 

[Irascible]

If you want rail to contribute to a regeneration of Plymouth, there are a lot of better options than connecting to Okehampton. Opening a station in Plympton, and running a 30 min frequency commuter service to there and Ivybridge would be relatively cheap, and could easily get cars off the roads. Tavistock wouldn't be bad, though I suspect an improved bus service would be very much better and a lot cheaper, particularly given that the other major issue in Plymouth is the station is so poorly located.

The new 2 tph service into Cornwall will also make a big difference to the attractiveness of a leisure or commuter trip into the city from Cornwall.

Any speeding up of the routes to London and Bristol would also go a long way, and the LSWR route doesn't achieve that - a Dawlish diversion would, and I guess that electrification would as well, or line speed improvements on the Berks and Hants, or the Devon banks.

If any more trains could be found for Crosscountry, then extending all of their services to Plymouth would also help.

I quite like the idea of extending some SWR services to Plymouth, to give direct trains to places like Salisbury and Basingstoke, and so better connections to the South East - I'm pretty sure that there is space to fit them along the existing line though, with a reversal in St Davids, which also gives the advantage of connecting Newton Abbott and Totnes.

NE Cornwall is pretty sparsely populated, so I don't see why connecting to it will help regenerate Plymouth. Launceston is really the only decent sized town, and there are no sensible rail routes to get there, a decent quality bus would make much more sense.

Can't disagree with any of that ( need to make clear neither I or BR were advocating *for* joining Okehampton to Plymouth ) although better transport would encourage development of that whole northern area. SWR back to Plymouth ( via SDR ) would be great, if they could actually do it without wrecking the WoE service.

The bus route from Tavistock does not look amazingly attractive if you look on a map ( and in my case project my own experience of regional bus travel ) - how is it to actually use?

 

[yorksrob]

I just wouldn't have the faith in a long distance bus link being kept up.

 

[21C101]

I just wouldn't have the faith in a long distance bus link being kept up.

That is a key problem. Such services need to have the same protections against withdrawal as railways have, a minimum service level including after 5pm, integrated ticketing, common branding, marketed as an integral part of the railway, high quality coaches with comfortable seats and back to back table seats for inter urban routes (you could even have a first class section) and where practicable at rail/bus interchanges, cross platform interchange, Heathrow Junction style without having to go through ticket barriers.

(the old Chard Bay at Taunton which is now going to have a bus station next to it would have been ideal for a "Heathrow Junction" arrangement).

At major destinations like Sidmouth, you could even buy the shop next to the bus stop, install a ticket office selling the full range of rail tickets, waiting room, PIS screen for both buses and connecting trains, plus a small buffet counter; then stick a big sign with a red and white double arrow outside and big letters on the shop front saying "Sidmouth Station"

Bingo, virtual train service that would attract people who won't use a bog standard bus servive.

 

[yorksrob]

That is a key problem. Such services need to have the same protections against withdrawal as railways have, a minimum service level including after 5pm, integrated ticketing, common branding, marketed as an integral part of the railway, high quality coaches with comfortable seats and back to back table seats for inter urban routes (you could even have a first class section) and where practicable at rail/bus interchanges, cross platform interchange, Heathrow Junction style without having to go through ticket barriers.

(the old Chard Bay at Taunton which is now going to have a bus station next to it would have been ideal for a "Heathrow Junction" arrangement).

At major destinations like Sidmouth, you could even buy the shop next to the bus stop, install a ticket office selling the full range of rail tickets, waiting room, PIS screen for both buses and connecting trains, plus a small buffet counter; then stick a big sign with a red and white double arrow outside and big letters on the shop front saying "Sidmouth Station"

Bingo, virtual train service that would attract people who won't use a bog standard bus servive.

Yes, I have used the connection from Bodmin Parkway to Padstow and as well as being quite expensive (and not connecting in one direction) it was too long and winding. I think that some connections really are better as rail.

 

[BrianW]

So what problems are these solutions addressing? I do note though that this Forum in in 'Speculative ideas', so I'll try not be harsh and I'm not meaning to be personal or dismissive.

I see several ACE ideas here- geddit? The Atlantic Coast Express ran from Waterloo at a mile-a-minute and very popular on Summer Saturdays, until it withered until the onslaught of BR's Western Region and Dr Beeching. It was well-loved by Sir John Betjeman and lots of fellow romantics. The Cornish Riviera, the Torbay Express and Mayflower thrashed through the seaspray at Dawlish on their way between Paddington and Plymouth and Penzance; the Royal Duchy called there as did the Cornishman and the Devonian from Sheffield, Bradford, the North and the Midlands with the 'bucket-and-spade' brigade. Those were indeed the days.

Today, who wants let alone needs to travel from where to where, when and what for? Birmingham to Bideford or Barnstaple or vice versa? Dawlish to Derby or Doncaster? There's no free lunch; someone has to pay. The notion of a large-scale Rooseveltian progamme of public works seems to be withering, so no cheap labour. I imagine 'the authorities' will not be short on data to help inform the viability of this or that great idea. Plymouth will have its advocates, a combination of Janners and consultants, for public funding; Okehampton, Launceston and Gunnsislake will all have their supporters, some on this Forum. There's no General Election on the horizon; there may or may not be local elections where candidates will be able to make promises ...

I'm a dreamer too; and this is a lovely part of the country. The X1 is a great bus, every quarter of an hour, Plymouth- Tavistock, (free with my 'old git's pass' off-peak) double-deck so great views ...
Bus 12, hourly Plymouth to Launceston , continuing every 2 hours to Bude. Looking forward to summer, and end of Covid, and dreaming on.

 

[Irascible]

At major destinations like Sidmouth, you could even buy the shop next to the bus stop, install a ticket office selling the full range of rail tickets, waiting room, PIS screen for both buses and connecting trains, plus a small buffet counter; then stick a big sign with a red and white double arrow outside and big letters on the shop front saying "Sidmouth Station"

Agreed about bus integration. ( Worth pointing out the X9 from Exeter-Lyme Regis doesn't go to Sidmouth - posh folks don't take buses :P only the slow 9 goes there )

 

[MarkyT]

Plymouth being a port was, of course, the reason for the line being built in the first place.

In the unlikely event of the RN ever vacating Devonport, I suppose the dockyard might plausibly be redeveloped as a container port!

Although, if I was going to build a container port I would be more tempted to look at the Falmouth area which is a few hours sailing time nearer the atlantic and just off the A30, with existing rail links nearby.

Falmouth has definitely been considered in the past. Here is a Hansard reference from almost exactly half a century ago covering the subject, also interesting in that it is being considered partly in the context of the UK's imminent likely accession to the European Community (which indeed occurred two years later in 1973)!

FALMOUTH (CONTAINER TERMINAL) (Hansard, 3 August 1971)

FALMOUTH (CONTAINER TERMINAL) (Hansard, 3 August 1971)

api.parliament.uk

Mr. David Mudd (Falmouth and Cambourne)...
Therefore, if we are to look towards an alternative port on the West Coast of England, my submission is that the only port that can reasonably be considered is the Port of Falmouth. Accordingly, I ask: what can the Port of Falmouth offer to answer the threefold demands of safety, ease of access and strategic positioning to attract the Transatlantic cargoes
...
Mr. Robert Hicks (Bodmin)...
My hon. Friend mentioned possible spin-off effects. May I remind my hon. Friend the Minister that in pursuing their development area policies the Government place great emphasis on improving the infrastructure of the regions. In the context of Cornwall this means, above all, improved communications. We are confident of a stepping up in the rate of progress of road building in the West Country. I regret to say that we are less confident about the future of the railway to the west of Plymouth. I am informed that at least 8 per cent. of the traffic generated by this proposed port development would be rail-fed. This most certainly would play a significant part in helping retain our rail links in Cornwall—in other words, helping to retain and improve the basic attraction of the South-West Region. For this reason and others outlined by my hon. Friend, I have great pleasure in supporting him.

The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Eldon Griffiths)...
The Falmouth Container Terminal Company's Private Bill received Royal Assent on 17th February, but the company still has to obtain authorisation of the project by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment under Section 9 of the Harbours Act, 1964.

Perhaps BR may have included this possibility in justification for strengthening work on the Royal Albert bridge at Saltash (and possibly work on other Cornish structures) taking place during the early 1970s, although that would no doubt prove a benefit to other freight flows in Cornwall and may have allowed use of a wider range of diesel-electric classes into Cornwall, some of which were definitely heavier than equivalent hydraulics they were supplanting around the time.

The container port was still being pushed in the late 1980s:

DEADLINE NEARS FOR BOX PROJECT | JOC.com

www.joc.com

DEADLINE NEARS FOR BOX PROJECT
JANET PORTER | Jul 05, 1988 8:00PM EDT
Plans to build a deepwater container terminal at Falmouth in southwest England are approaching a critical stage.

The man behind the ambitious project, Michael Tragett, insists that a facility eventually able to handle 750,000 20-foot containers annually will be in operation within a couple of years.But Peter de Savary, the new owner of Falmouth Docks on the southern coast of the Cornish peninsula, is strongly opposed to the project and is pressing ahead with separate plans to provide ship services ranging from repair and maintenance to bunkering.

We believe the project will die a natural death, Robin Linfield, managing director of the bunkering facility, Falmouth Oil Services, told The Journal of Commerce. FOS is a subsidiary of Highland Participants PLC, the marine services and leisure group of which Mr. de Savary is managing director.

The concept of a container transshipment terminal at Falmouth has been on the drawing board since the late 1960s. However, time is starting to run out for Falmouth Container Terminal, the company that hopes to build and operate the new port.

 

[Bald Rick]

don’t know about you but I hate rural buses and to be honest, I would rather get the train.

I’m easy. Generally I’d rather get the train, but if there’s no train I’d get the bus rather than not make the journey.

However I’m also a taxpayer, and I’d rather the Government didn’t spend a load of money it hasn’t got on a project that has - frankly - limited benefit compared to other things that cash could be spent on (on the Railways, or elsewhere).

Put another way - full reopening was costed 6 years ago as £750m or so. That won’t have reduced in the intervening period. For that sort of money you could put the wires up from Paignton to Bristol Parkway, or, if you prefer, the whole of Cornwall, which would speed up (and decarbonise) every rail journey in the county. And still have enough to buy a decent fleet of electric buses to provide connectivity to Tavistock, at a much cheaper ongoing cost than a new railway could ever achieve. I know which I would rather do!

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I’m easy. Generally I’d rather get the train, but if there’s no train I’d get the bus rather than not make the journey.

However I’m also a taxpayer, and I’d rather the Government didn’t spend a load of money it hasn’t got on a project that has - frankly - limited benefit compared to other things that cash could be spent on (on the Railways, or elsewhere).

Put another way - full reopening was costed 6 years ago as £750m or so. That won’t have reduced in the intervening period. For that sort of money you could put the wires up from Paignton to Bristol Parkway, or, if you prefer, the whole of Cornwall, which would speed up (and decarbonise) every rail journey in the county. And still have enough to buy a decent fleet of electric buses to provide connectivity to Tavistock, at a much cheaper ongoing cost than a new railway could ever achieve. I know which I would rather do!

So so I, open the ex-LSWR route.

Cornwall will never get the wires, and Devon will have to wait decades. The Northern route had two benefits which are provide a backup for Dawlish and reconnect North Devon and maybe even north Cornwall should other branches be reopened later on.

As for speeding up journey times into Cornwall, far down the list of priorities. Hundreds of millions to save a few minutes isn’t really good value for money.

 

[yorksrob]

I’m easy. Generally I’d rather get the train, but if there’s no train I’d get the bus rather than not make the journey.

However I’m also a taxpayer, and I’d rather the Government didn’t spend a load of money it hasn’t got on a project that has - frankly - limited benefit compared to other things that cash could be spent on (on the Railways, or elsewhere).

Put another way - full reopening was costed 6 years ago as £750m or so. That won’t have reduced in the intervening period. For that sort of money you could put the wires up from Paignton to Bristol Parkway, or, if you prefer, the whole of Cornwall, which would speed up (and decarbonise) every rail journey in the county. And still have enough to buy a decent fleet of electric buses to provide connectivity to Tavistock, at a much cheaper ongoing cost than a new railway could ever achieve. I know which I would rather do!

Decarbonising the railway is all well and good, but you have to have a railway to decarbonise in the first place. Electric buses suffer the same shortcomings as other buses and consequently are no substitute for a rail connection.

 

[Bald Rick]

We've been waiting for that ever since BR first started closing branch lines in the 50's.

A properly integrated bus link, with integrated ticketing and branding, with minimum service requirements so it didn't cease at 5pm could be as seamless as a branch train service. It could even be cross platform like the temporary Heathrow Junction was.

Coaches with table seats could and should be used for longer routes. You could even have a first class section (as one coach route from Oxford to Heathrow does).



Alas I don't think I will see it happen in my lifetime.

But it can be done, indeed is done in places. And it is so much easier, cheaper, and quicker to implement than building a new railway.

For example, if they really wanted to, Devon CC could make an agreement with the DfT to get an express coach link from Tavistock to Plymouth into the GWR franchise, have Tavistock in the fares system, a suitable service specification (say half hourly from early till late), and it could be running later this year. The up front cost would be about a quarter of what it will cost just to do the development and design of reopening the line from Bere Alston to Tavistock. And it would cost less than half the annual cost to run.

It might not suit everybody - not least rail enthusiasts - and it might be 10 minutes slower than the train. But it would be more frequent, better for the environment, in service 7-8 years earlier, and a tiny, tiny fraction of the cost to deliver.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2021 ==

Hundreds of millions to save a few minutes isn’t really good value for money.

Except it often is, particularly when millions of people benefit each year.

Electric buses suffer the same shortcomings as other buses and consequently are no substitute for a rail connection.

Except they are. I agree not quite as good as a rail connection (although in some cases it’s better), but they are a reasonable substitute in many cases. Especially those cases where the railway doesn’t exist.

 

[yorksrob]

Oh please, there are buses all over the place. They've never been a substitute,

 

[21C101]

Except they are. I agree not quite as good as a rail connection (although in some cases it’s better), but they are a reasonable substitute in many cases. Especially those cases where the railway doesn’t exist.

Lets go further then and implement the Serpell Plan #axethetraintax ?

 

[Irascible]

So so I, open the ex-LSWR route.

Cornwall will never get the wires, and Devon will have to wait decades. The Northern route had two benefits which are provide a backup for Dawlish and reconnect North Devon and maybe even north Cornwall should other branches be reopened later on.

As for speeding up journey times into Cornwall, far down the list of priorities. Hundreds of millions to save a few minutes isn’t really good value for money.

I think you're rather underestimating what wiring and the route work that would come with it would do for a hilly route.

Wiring the existing line which helps all journeys vs hundreds of millions on a line to mostly nowhere that only gets used at each end? I'm with BR on this. I'm less with him about Tavistock but I'll bow to local knowledge on that one. If the SDR route gets full then we might have a case.

Has it been pointed out that the Dawlish choice has already been made? they're already rebuilding the wall. The whole LSWR route has to stand on it's own merits.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Decarbonising the railway is all well and good, but you have to have a railway to decarbonise in the first place. Electric buses suffer the same shortcomings as other buses and consequently are no substitute for a rail connection.

There is a reason why rural buses are so unpopular, and that’s becusee of the poor service they off.
Personally, I would rather go from Tavistock to Plymouth on a train than a bus, and if there was no train I would be driving. Although the concept of the train is an old one, it has kept up with modern society and has improved. However, buses on the other had have remained just as slow (due to the limitations of the road of course) and will remain that way forever.

 

[yorksrob]

There is a reason why rural buses are so unpopular, and that’s becusee of the poor service they off.
Personally, I would rather go from Tavistock to Plymouth on a train than a bus, and if there was no train I would be driving. Although the concept of the train is an old one, it has kept up with modern society and has improved. However, buses on the other had have remained just as slow (due to the limitations of the road of course) and will remain that way forever.

Indeed. Buses are fine for short local hops - I use the ones here regularly. But for middle distance and inter-urban travel, the rail network is the way forward.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

For example, if they really wanted to, Devon CC could make an agreement with the DfT to get an express coach link from Tavistock to Plymouth into the GWR franchise, have Tavistock in the fares system, a suitable service specification (say half hourly from early till late), and it could be running later this year. The up front cost would be about a quarter of what it will cost just to do the development and design of reopening the line from Bere Alston to Tavistock. And it would cost less than half the annual cost to run.

You’re right, they could buy they haven’t.

A bus Tavistock to Plymouth is a poor idea. It has no benefit over the train but has many down sides. It’s slow, is vuleubke to traffic Jams and other issues and doesn’t really offer much more than the car.

The train not only eliminates parking like the bus does, but it is also more reliable.

 

[21C101]

You’re right, they could buy they haven’t.

A bus Tavistock to Plymouth is a poor idea. It has no benefit over the train but has many down sides. It’s slow, is vuleubke to traffic Jams and other issues and doesn’t really offer much more than the car.

The train not only eliminates parking like the bus does, but it is also more reliable.

My understanding is that the A386 (pandemics excepted) is a slow and grinding crawl to Plymouth in the morning and just as bad the other way in the evening.

Hence the railway, especially with large scale development of housing in Tavy.

 

[Bald Rick]

A bus Tavistock to Plymouth is a poor idea.

Such a poor idea that Stagecoach manage to run 4 an hour each way, presumably at a profit.

It has no benefit over the train but has many down sides

As previously - it has plenty of benefits; perhaps on balance not as many as the train, but still plenty. And it doesn’t cost hundreds of millions to deliver.

 

[yorksrob]

Such a poor idea that Stagecoach manage to run 4 an hour each way, presumably at a profit.

Theres a good market for a decent public transport option then !

 

[tbtc]

Ok fair enough. About the buses though, are we not supposed to be advocating rail and pushing for it?

I think everyone on here would advocate good rail, sure, but we have different thresholds of what quantifies as a good scheme.

Spending hundreds of millions of pounds on a route that has such little demand that it can't sustain a commercial minibus service (e.g. Okehampton to the west) seems like a poor scheme to me.

I'd rather focus on advocating good rail schemes.

I don’t know about you but I hate rural buses and to be honest, I would rather get the train. If there’s not train I’m driving. I will never get a bus over driving

Personally, I would rather go from Tavistock to Plymouth on a train than a bus, and if there was no train I would be driving. Although the concept of the train is an old one, it has kept up with modern society and has improved. However, buses on the other had have remained just as slow (due to the limitations of the road of course) and will remain that way forever.

This is the problem with these threads - there's an idea that "we should be encouraging people to use trains because its greener" but also "no way am I going to use public transport myself, unless it is rail-based"

The bus route from Tavistock does not look amazingly attractive if you look on a map ( and in my case project my own experience of regional bus travel ) - how is it to actually use?

The bus service from Tavistock to Plymouth is a good one, and a solid indication of where demand is in the area - I think it was every fifteen minutes (although, during lockdown, it's hard to assess what the "natural" frequency of bus routes is - given the various "temporary" cuts to services) - which is a good frequency for that kind of distance and indicates clear demand to get between the two places.

The problem is that, whilst Stagecoach can justify a regular bus service as far as Tavistock, that's as far as the critical mass of demand goes. Beyond Tavistock you've got the emptiness of Dartmoor and a handful fo fairly small villages. AFAICS there's no commercial bus service towards Okehampton.

A Tavistock - Bere Alston branch would be worth investigating, but if you can't find enough people to half fill an Optare Solo (e.g. through Dartmoor) then I'd not waste much time coming up with ambitions for heavy rail.

Meanwhile, Okehampton to Exeter can justify regular enough buses, so there's a market there - let's not pretend that there's a huge "Okehampton to Plymouth" demand or "Tavistock to Exeter" demand (and certainly very little in the way of "Okehampton to Tavistock"!)

(whereas, the re-opened lines that have done "well" in recent years have generally been the ones that already sustained a regular commercial bus service, e.g. Alloa to Stirling - it's a reasonable benchmark to use when assessing whether heavy rail stands a chance - that's why I'd focus re-openings in south west England to places that can sustain regular buses - e.g. Portishead to Bristol)

So what problems are these solutions addressing?

This thread isn't about addressing actual problems () - this thread is about working backwards from a solution "re-open an abandoned line, introduce the old LSWR services from Waterloo, go back to the Good Old Days" and then coming up with reasons to try to justify it (inventing freight services, pretending that you could open a single track line with dual aspect signals that could accommodate all of the Dawlish services if that line were ever unavailable etc) - its like performance art.

Lets go further then and implement the Serpell Plan #axethetraintax ?

There's maybe some nuanced position in between "not implementing every nostalgic proposal" and "Serpell" - maybe we could keep the lines that we have without the need to blindly accept every proposal for re-opening ones?

A bus Tavistock to Plymouth is a poor idea. It has no benefit over the train but has many down sides

Well, it actually serves central Plymouth, unlike any train service, so saving passengers up to fifteen minutes walk each direction - I'm all for bias, I have baises of my own, but you've got to acknowledge that this is *one* benefit (on top of the flexibility etc)

 

[geordieblue]

Theres a good market for a decent public transport option then !

Most would consider 4bph a pretty good public transport option.
And, by the way, I think Tavistock makes sense as an isolated reopening. Trains are better than buses in many, if not most, scenarios. That is not to say that buses themselves are bad, even when operating outside of urban areas.

 

[21C101]

On Plymouth it is quite salutory to see the usage of places like Devonport, Keyham and St Budeax compared with even minor halts on the Exmouth Branch like Polsloe Bridge and St James Park.

 

[paul1609]

Such a poor idea that Stagecoach manage to run 4 an hour each way, presumably at a profit.




As previously - it has plenty of benefits; perhaps on balance not as many as the train, but still plenty. And it doesn’t cost hundreds of millions to deliver.

The bus also has the benefit that in the Derriford-Manadon Corridor it passes through has a high percentage of the new employment sites in Plymouth which is why the road is busy wheras the train runs in an indirect journey along the side of Tamar Estuary until it reaches the Royal Albert Bridge (through nice scenery but not a lot else) after which it runs across and alongside the naval dockyard (in decline for many years) and then through a residential area to Plymouth Station which is situated on a hill above the run down city centre. Most people would have to get the bus back towards Tavistock for work.
By Car from Tavistock it takes just over an hour to both Tiverton Parkway and Exeter St Davids or about 45mins peak time to Plymouth. So Plymouth doesnt make much sense as a Railhead either.
The area around the station is mainly for students but these dont tend to move out to an expensive sleepy rural towns 15 miles away for accomodation.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

My understanding is that the A386 (pandemics excepted) is a slow and grinding crawl to Plymouth in the morning and just as bad the other way in the evening.

Hence the railway, especially with large scale development of housing in Tavy.

Very poor. Plymouth, just like Exeter, has a serious issue with traffic at certain times of the day.

Can easily make a 15 minute journey half an hour and that’s no good if you’re trying to run a bus service to replace a train which will not suffer from this issue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2021 ==

Such a poor idea that Stagecoach manage to run 4 an hour each way, presumably at a profit.




As previously - it has plenty of benefits; perhaps on balance not as many as the train, but still plenty. And it doesn’t cost hundreds of millions to deliver.

4 buses an hour? Impressive, but that doesn’t mean that those passengers plus more wouldn’t use the train should the line be reopened.

As for it being profitable, that’s another discussion. Bus route are often not profitable unless they’re intensive inner city workings.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2021 ==

Well, it actually serves central Plymouth, unlike any train service, so saving passengers up to fifteen minutes walk each direction - I'm all for bias, I have baises of my own, but you've got to acknowledge that this is *one* benefit (on top of the flexibility etc)

Ok, I will give you that one, that is an advantage to the bus although the train would stop at all stations so it would serve most of the key areas, other then Derriford of of course.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2021 ==

If we were to knock Tavistock to Okehampton on the head and just leave it I would like to a deer is similar to this run.

A service to Totnes from Tavistock stopping at all stations (commuter train, not looking for Tavistock to Totnes traffic as there is none) and preferably running hourly.
A 2 car 150/2 (or whatever stock we have down here when/if Tavistock opens) would suffice at first, but obviously it could be extended if the demand was there. The reason for running to Totnes and not Ivybridge has to place to turn back, where are Totnes does. It could be done in the up loop with a trailing crossover west of the station for the train to reverse over and then crossover onto the down line to continue back to Tavistock. Alternatively a facing crossover could in installed to allow the train to crossover as approaches the station to allow it to reverse in the down platform instead.

If reversing in the down platform isn’t allowed the using the siding to the east if the station would be the best option with a trailing crossover to the west of the station.

I know it’s a fantasy, but Plymouth Friary should be number one on the list of old stations in Plymouth to be reopened. The track is serviceable and the access is there so why not build just a single platform and run the Gunnislake train to there? It is closer to the city centre than Plymouth North Road.

 

[Bald Rick]

4 buses an hour? Impressive, but that doesn’t mean that those passengers plus more wouldn’t use the train should the line be reopened.

Equally, as others have said, it doesn’t mean the bus passengers would use the train. The existing bus serves intermediate villages down the A386 (which the train couldn’t) and also directly serves the parts of Plymouth that many passengers went to get to - the hospital, schools, the city centre.

A high quality, high frequency express coach, running non stop from Tavistock directly to the Hospital, then station and city centre would offer better connectivity (to Plymouth) and better generalised journey time than a rail option. That means it is likely to offer greater benefit than the rail option, for (much) lower cost and environmental impact, and it can be delivered much more quickly - months rather than years. I’ve said elsewhere before - it would save so much money compared to buildings railway you could make it free to use and still be massively ‘quids in’.

Now, I agree that the line to Tavistock will have a better case for reopening than Okehampton - Bere Alston, but that doesn’t make it a ‘slam dunk’ and neither does it mean that properly scoped alternatives shouldn’t be considered.

 

[RT4038]

Equally, as others have said, it doesn’t mean the bus passengers would use the train. The existing bus serves intermediate villages down the A386 (which the train couldn’t) and also directly serves the parts of Plymouth that many passengers went to get to - the hospital, schools, the city centre.

A high quality, high frequency express coach, running non stop from Tavistock directly to the Hospital, then station and city centre would offer better connectivity (to Plymouth) and better generalised journey time than a rail option. That means it is likely to offer greater benefit than the rail option, for (much) lower cost and environmental impact, and it can be delivered much more quickly - months rather than years. I’ve said elsewhere before - it would save so much money compared to buildings railway you could make it free to use and still be massively ‘quids in’.

Now, I agree that the line to Tavistock will have a better case for reopening than Okehampton - Bere Alston, but that doesn’t make it a ‘slam dunk’ and neither does it mean that properly scope alternatives shouldn’t be considered.

The money saved by this emminently sensible suggestion should go towards the railway project that would most benefit the most populated parts of South Devon, Plymouth and Cornwall - a new direct line from Exeter to Plymouth, with a branch to connect with the Torbay line around Newton Abbot.
The railway must invest in what it does best - carrying large numbers of passengers, preferably at high speeds, and bulk goods traffic. Re-instating country branch and cross country lines is just not worth the money.
Most of the problems raised with rural bus services are concerning the different financial and regulatory regime compared to railways - this could be fixed without any 'spades in the ground' expense at all.