Zero excessing an Off Peak Return to a Super Saver Return

[General Zod]

An OPR return ( not London, travel any time after 0500) for my specific destination is greater in price than a Super Saver Return ( any permitted route but travel after 0930 ) I would like to take advantage of the time restrictions and travel up via the not-London route on the OPR and return via the London route ( any permitted ) route on the SSR. Is this change in ticket possible or can the ticket only be excessed to the OPR ("any permitted") ticket ? If indeed possible, as the value of the OPR is greater than the SSR would the change involve some kind of zero excessing of the Off Peak Return ?

Thanks,
Z

 

[yorkie]

That doesn't sound right.

OPR = Super Off Peak
SSR = Super Off Peak

(Yes, really!)

They're the same thing, but I don't think that there are any flows that have both OPRs and SSRs... are there?! I suppose Not London and +Any Permitted may be considered different flows, so maybe it is possible.

What is the journey?

In any case the ticket type is irrelevant if you are doing a change of route excess, you are entitled to the cheapest available ticket for the route that you require that is valid at the times that you wish to travel.

I can guarantee some confused people will deny this and claim the ticket code must remain the same but this is most definitely not true, and indeed there is an example given in The Manual I believe, I will see if I can dig it out...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've found it

Example

A customer holds an Anytime Single from Hereford to Alton routed “not via London”. The customer wishes to travel via London on a day at a time when a Super Off-Peak Single is valid. If the customer does not wish to break their journey, they should be charged the difference between the fare already paid: Anytime Single (£38.50p) and the Super Off-Peak Single (£43). The Excess fare is £5·50. Note: This example is not necessarily the current fare.

So you can excess to the most appropriate fare, the SSR, regardless of whether you hold a SSR, OPR, SVR, SOR, etc...

If the ticket you want is cheaper, then an excess fare is £0.00 however it is questionable whether you actually need that excess. The ticket should be fine without the excess, but if you can state the origin, destination and exact ticket held (the name of the ticket, not just the code, bear in mind Off Peak Return is SVR, as an OPR is a Super Off Peak Return) I can check.

Your original post does sound as if you are confused about ticket types/names. Super Saver doesn't exist any more and is now Super Off Peak and OPR is also Super Off Peak.

 

[General Zod]

Sorry, senior moment I'm afraid. I meant Super Off Peak and the journey in question is
High Wycombe - Kyle o Lochalsh

The SOPR Allows travel via ANY PERMITTED ( no travel to / from BHM before 0930 or London 0929)
The OPR ( not london) allows travel via Banbury only ( allows travel after 0500)

 

[91101]

I am looking at a slightly outdated NFM, but I am seeing a SVR (Off Peak, Route Not London) at 147.50 and an SSR (Super Off Peak +Any Permitted) at 148?

 

[barrykas]

I am looking at a slightly outdated NFM, but I am seeing a SVR (Off Peak, Route Not London) at 147.50 and an SSR (Super Off Peak +Any Permitted) at 148?

"The Manual" shows the Any Permitted SSR (priced by East Coast) at £147.40, and the Not London SVR (priced by CrossCountry) at £157.20. And whilst the Excess probably isn't technically required, it'd hopefully prevent arguments with LU staff!

Cheers,

Barry

 

[yorkie]

Sorry, senior moment I'm afraid. I meant Super Off Peak and the journey in question is
High Wycombe - Kyle o Lochalsh

The SOPR Allows travel via ANY PERMITTED ( no travel to / from BHM before 0930 or London 0929)
The OPR ( not london) allows travel via Banbury only ( allows travel after 0500)

SOPR doesn't exist, and there is no OPR for this flow, although OPR does mean Super Off Peak, the Super Off Peak is SSR in this case.

To avoid confusion can I ask that codes are not used unless you know they are correct?

The ticket codes can be found in Avantix Traveller.

I agree with barrykas, I would strongly recommend getting the excess to avoid arguments. And not just with barrier staff, but on-train staff may claim the route isn't valid and that they can only excess to the same ticket type. This isn't true, as the manual clearly states, however it's best to get the excess done as early as possible. Getting excesses can be a bit of a nightmare, as other threads have shown, especially zero excesses - good luck!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

"The Manual" shows the Any Permitted SSR (priced by East Coast) at £147.40, and the Not London SVR (priced by CrossCountry) at £157.20. And whilst the Excess probably isn't technically required, it'd hopefully prevent arguments with LU staff!

Cheers,

Barry

The Excess, even at £0.00 is most definately required. The price is irrelevant, it is the Route shown on the ticket which is important. If you travel via London without the XS fare, technically you are travelling without a valid ticket and could, depending on your journey, end up being involved in a penalty fare dispute with a TOC or LU for not having a valid ticket.

 

[b0b]

We've also seen someone on this forum PF'd for not having aquired at 0.00 excess as well, please get the ticket to avoid this, as dumb as it sounds.

 

[91101]

It's not as stupid as it sounds.

On the Not London route, the reveue will go principally to CrossCountry, with East Coast and Virgin taking a marginal share on that flow (Virgin from BHM to Scotland, or East Coast from Doncaster/Peterborough - Scotland) but the likelyhood of someone using either of those operators is marginal, and thus their revenue allocation will be very small.

On the +Any Permitted fare, the reveue share will principally be weighted between East Coast and Virigin, with a leaning to East Coast as they will provide the most direct oppotrunity to travel KGX-INV and change for Kyle.

The excess, whilst not costing you anything, will reallocate within LENNON the reveue from XC to EC for the return portion that is excessed.

So doing it without the excess East Coast dont have to carry you, as they are not being paid to...in effect.

 

[b0b]

It's not as stupid as it sounds.

it still sounds stupid to me, the cost of issuing the 0 excess can't be trivial and must eat in to, if not completely exceed the extra revenue via LENNON.

 

[91101]

The transactional cost is pennies.

Put it this way, you have a 100 Asda Gift Card, Tesco aint gonna let you use it in their shop, its pretty much the same with this.

 

[yorkie]

Oh great, another revenue allocation post to pick holes out of! I'm going to bring out my Huntingdon example again, and I'll keep repeating it until it sinks in (sorry many of you must be very bored with it now!)

 

[91101]

Huntingdon example?

 

[yorkie]

It's not as stupid as it sounds.

On the Not London route, the reveue will go principally to CrossCountry, with East Coast and Virgin taking a marginal share on that flow (Virgin from BHM to Scotland, or East Coast from Doncaster/Peterborough - Scotland) but the likelyhood of someone using either of those operators is marginal, and thus their revenue allocation will be very small.

I would very much doubt it would principally go to XC, as the most sensible route would seem to me to take the more direct route via Carlisle, this is also faster usually. A lot of TOCs would get money from this ticket, and I hope none of them would moan at carrying a passenger who happens to choose their route. I bet Northern don't get much but, without checking, I'm sure the ticket is valid via Appleby!

On the +Any Permitted fare, the reveue share will principally be weighted between East Coast and Virigin, with a leaning to East Coast as they will provide the most direct oppotrunity to travel KGX-INV and change for Kyle.

Less changes does appear to increase the weighting but I think that the effect of one train (the Chieftain) may be exaggerated a bit. It's a once per day train, albeit a popular one that does indeed have a lot of reservations for the throughout journey.

The excess, whilst not costing you anything, will reallocate within LENNON the reveue from XC to EC for the return portion that is excessed.

That's an incredibly simplistic analysis. In theory, it should completely re-allocate it. It would still be valid on XC either way, I admit XC would get less revenue but in both cases I think Virgin would get a fair chunk.

So doing it without the excess East Coast dont have to carry you, as they are not being paid to...in effect.

ARGH! Not that argument! If an EC conductor wants to get the revenue re-allocated (and I've not actually had it confirmed that the revenue would get re-allocated but, for the purpose of this discussion, let's assume that ATOC are competent in this area!) then they simply have to issue a zero excess, the talk of "not having to carry" is crazy talk - just issue a zero excess and be done with it.

As for the "they don't have to carry you if they are not paid to" argument, it's completely made-up! Validity is NOT determined by revenue allocation. Revenue allocation does NOT determine validity.

If someone has a Huntingdon-London season, EC will get next to nothing for that ticket given that it is probably never quicker to change at Stevenage onto one of the infrequent EC trains that actually calls there, and if it is, very rarely, and direct trains carry a lot of weight, as you correctly identified earlier anyway. EC certainly would get a lot less of a proportion of that ticket, than they would for a High Wycombe - Kyle Not London, I bet! Anyway, someone with that season ticket may go from work straight to an evening out in Peterborough. They get a Huntingdon-Peterborough CDR. EC gets no revenue from that. That person is perfectly valid to get a non-stop EC train. That is valid. EC cannot (and I am not suggesting they would - this is purely an example) use the argument about not getting money and therefore refuse to carry the customer. The customer is valid - end of!

The argument that "we don't get enough money from the revenue allocation of this ticket, so we don't have to carry you" holds no water, and is totally and utterly meaningless.

I hope that settles it

Anyway, as I said before, the OP should try to get a zero excess as early as possible, because some staff
a) don't know how to issue excesses correctly and may try to overcharge; or
b) don't want the hassle of issuing excesses and may try to overcharge; or
c) insert random non-reason here...(I've heard so many I get tired of hearing them!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Huntingdon example?

Here are the most recent times I've quoted it (apart from today):

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=491677&highlight=huntingdon#post491677


http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=485114&highlight=huntingdon#post485114

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=461741&highlight=huntingdon#post461741

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=415065&highlight=huntingdon#post415065

Sorry I keep re-posting it (5 times in 6 months), and any stations could be chosen! (e.g. Micklefield to York season + Micklefield - Leeds CDR on Cross Country. XC won't get a penny - tough!) because a combination of any non-PTE issued season + any point to point walk on ticket(s) are valid on non-stop trains provided by any operator, irrespective of calling patterns on the non-stop trains. The train does not need to call, it just needs to pass through the station where you change from one ticket to the other.

 

[RJ]

Yes it can be done and I will do it provided the new ticket costs more or the same as the old one.

That doesn't sound right.

OPR = Super Off Peak
SSR = Super Off Peak

(Yes, really!)

They're the same thing, but I don't think that there are any flows that have both OPRs and SSRs... are there?! I suppose Not London and +Any Permitted may be considered different flows, so maybe it is possible.

Yes there are examples where both tickets exist for the same route, usually where there is competition. Some TOCs use SSR, others use OPR. One example is a London to Birmingham Stations ticket. SSR (VT) £29.00, OPR (LM) £17.50.
Restrictions differ quite significantly however!

 

[Lampshade]

Regardless of the minefield I'm about to walk into - how is Mr A Joe of 22 Acacia Avenue going to know about revenue allocation and LENNON? :?

 

[RJ]

Regardless of the minefield I'm about to walk into - how is Mr A Joe of 22 Acacia Avenue going to know about revenue allocation and LENNON? :?

Why does he need to? All he needs to do is ask for the ticket to be changed to what suits him. Hopefully that will translate to issue a Change of Route excess to the booking office clerk.

 

[yorkie]

Regardless of the minefield I'm about to walk into - how is Mr A Joe of 22 Acacia Avenue going to know about revenue allocation and LENNON? :?

Exactly! That's why revenue allocation can never determine validity and can never be used as a valid reason for refusing to accept a ticket.

 

[RJ]

Exactly! That's why revenue allocation can never determine validity and can never be used as a valid reason for refusing to accept a ticket.

It can help sometimes.

 

[yorkie]

It can help sometimes.

I don't see how, because it doesn't determine validity. If it was a valid argument, then a XC guard could refuse a York-Micklefield season + Micklefield-Leeds CDR.

If it was a valid argument, then to determine validity we'd have to have access to ORCATS data so that we can check if the ticket is valid or not I am confident that this will never happen!

 

[b0b]

If it was a valid argument, then to determine validity we'd have to have access to ORCATS data so that we can check if the ticket is valid or not I am confident that this will never happen!

we don't have the data we require as it is to determine whether a ticket is valid on a particular train service, so that's nothing new

 

[RJ]

we don't have the data we require as it is to determine whether a ticket is valid on a particular train service, so that's nothing new

You have the National Rail website which will tell you. Failing that, you can ask somebody in a ticket office, use the info button on the TVM, ask a member of on board train staff or use the Avantix Traveller software available made available by ATOC.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

And lets not forget the National Routeing Guide that ATOC have put on their website!

 

[General Zod]

Gents I am extremely grateful for all the contributions and sincerest apologies for causing any headaches.
The whole conundrum was born from the fact that the HWY - KYL Off Peak Return ( any permitted) is a whopping £255.20 ; the most direct route being, as Yorkie suggested, High Wycombe - Euston - Preston ( or Carlisle ) - Edinburgh - Inverness -KYL. I have a necessity to return via London but no need for outward travel to be via London.
I can only reach KYL from HWY ( via Banbury) if I begin my journey at 0610 or 0650. As I will be travelling before 0930 the Super Saver Return / Super Off Peak Return, call it what you like, will not be valid via Banbury or Birmingham New Street. The only tickets that will be valid are the Off Peak Return ( not london ) £157.20 or OPR ( any permitted ) £255.20. Does it really make financial sense to pay close to £100 for the privilege of being able to return via London. Personally speaking I think not, hence, me starting this thread. Surely there is no need to pay the extra £98 for the Off Peak Return ( any permitted) if the journey objective could be reached by way of the "zero ticket excessing" ?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Outward 'not London' and back via London (not to arrive in Euston before 1005 unless on the sleeper with a supplement) would be fine on the Off-Peak Return (SVR £157.20), but as previously said, you'd be wise to actually get hold of the £0.00 excess ticket for the London Underground bit if nothing else.

 

[b0b]

You have the National Rail website which will tell you. Failing that, you can ask somebody in a ticket office, use the info button on the TVM, ask a member of on board train staff or use the Avantix Traveller software available made available by ATOC.

so in other words- the information required to determine if a ticket is valid on a train is not in the public domain, you need to "ask somebody" who has that information.


for example: Is a London Terminals Terminals ticket to Selhurst valid via East Croydon on a fast train from Victoria, or a fast Thameslink service from Blackfriars? Tell me how to find that out from the publicly published information...

 

[yorkie]

As I will be travelling before 0930 the Super Saver Return / Super Off Peak Return, call it what you like, will not be valid via Banbury or Birmingham New Street.

Ah, I see the problem. The Super Off Peak Return (SSR) from High Wycombe to Kyle of Lochalsh routed Any Permitted is valid from King's Cross/Euston from 0929 and by any train from High Wycombe to Marylebone to connect. However you need to go via Birmingham, but this SSR ticket says for journeys via Birmingham to see Restriction 2V, which would make it not valid from High Wycombe until 0930 if using that route. Splitting the ticket would solve that, but I agree your solution is likely to be best, given that you wish to return via London

The only tickets that will be valid are the Off Peak Return ( not london ) £157.20 or OPR ( any permitted ) £255.20.

The £255 ticket is a SVR, but yes I see what you mean.

Does it really make financial sense to pay close to £100 for the privilege of being able to return via London. Personally speaking I think not, hence, me starting this thread. Surely there is no need to pay the extra £98 for the Off Peak Return ( any permitted) if the journey objective could be reached by way of the "zero ticket excessing" ?

Yes, I agree. In fact, you should get the change of route excess when you buy your ticket, if you have not already bought it. That's the only excess I can think of that you can justify getting at the time of buying your ticket.

 

[RJ]

so in other words- the information required to determine if a ticket is valid on a train is not in the public domain, you need to "ask somebody" who has that information.


for example: Is a London Terminals Terminals ticket to Selhurst valid via East Croydon on a fast train from Victoria, or a fast Thameslink service from Blackfriars? Tell me how to find that out from the publicly published information...

Go onto the National Rail website, input the journey details and flag the route as via East Croydon. It will tell you if one ticket is sufficient or not. Failing that, use the Routeing Guide. This is publicly accessible so I'm not quite sure what your moaning is getting at.

 

[b0b]

It will tell you if one ticket is sufficient or not. Failing that, use the Routeing Guide.

The routeing guide says its valid - but since the information of the route taken by fast trains is not published, you can not tell whether your journey would involve doubling back and need multiple tickets or not.

 

[reb0118]

Rail companies don't like to issue zero fare excess tickets because these are flagged up during audits and having previous experience of both internal & external auditors in a previous career I know where they are coming from.

If possible get the lower value ticket issued first then "alte rte" excess one way. I realise that you will be excessing from an any permitted to a not london fare ie in theory paying more to restrict your options (but in fact not in this case) but I don't see why this would not be issued.

We are instructed NOT to issue zero fare tickets on train unless we are retaining a passengers ticket for further enquiry or the passenger is being TIed for having no means of payment. In both cases a TI form has to be completed and a full report submitted.

Example 1) Pax holds ticket to Falkirk but wishes to travel to Glasgow. Solution = issue overdistance excess to cover fare. As there is a difference in fare this can be charged.

Example 2) Pax holds ticket for Aberdeen but now wishes to travel to Dyce. As there is no difference in fare we cannot issue a ticket because the zero fare would be flagged up upon download and we do not have any documentary proof to support the zero fare. We do not retain the original ticket as the pax requires this to support the excess ticket. As far as the auditors are concerned we have just issued a free ticket to one of our mates. Therefore in theory issue a single from Aberdeen to Dyce or in practice do a Nelson.

Not Ideal. When we had excess books in the above example (2) We would retain the original and write out a new ticket including details of the original. The original ticket was handed in with your shift sheet to support the issue of the excess free or otherwise.Everybody was happy apart from the fact you had writers cramp at the end of your shift.