London Terminals - continue journey to City Thameslink?

[sghosh]

I have a weekly ticket from Gravesend to "London Terminals", plus high speed. Despite myself actually choosing "city thameslink" as the destination when using the ticket machines, or saying it to the ticket counter, the ticket always comes out as "London Terminals". I go from Gravesend to St Pancras via High speed, then take the first capital connect from st pancras to City Thameslink. I have been using this route for 5 months now, and on the odd occasion that my ticket has become mangled and not working through the barriers any more, staff at both city thameslink and st pancras have not challenged the validity of my ticket and let me through. All of a sudden today, I was harassed by staff at St Pancras FCC entrance who would not let me through at all, claiming that my weekly does not allow me to carry on anywhere further, even City Thameslink. The only thing that I apparently can do is go back to Gravesend with that ticket.

Can someone please confirm whether I am allowed to go on to City Thameslink from STP with my weekly? If not, then why not? I could buy an all zone travelcard from Gravesend plus high speed for 98 pounds, but I don't want to do that unless I have to, since I only want to get off at City Thameslink, and as far as I'm aware it is NOT an underground station.

I have had people from National Rail, Southeastern and FCC all on this, but neither of them know a definitive answer yet (which is rather sad, how hard can it be to tell me if a ticket is valid or not)?

 

[barrykas]

Short Answer: The barrier staff are correct. A Gravesend - London Terminals ticket is NOT valid to travel to City Thameslink from St Pancras.

More specifically, tickets to London Terminals are not valid for journeys passing through Farringdon in either direction. Such journeys require a ticket with Zone 1 Underground validity.

As for why nobody's picked you up on it 'til now, I couldn't say.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[b0b]

If you purchase a ticket to City Thameslink, then the ticket is valid to City Thameslink. It's not your fault that the ticket says "London Terminals" and next time you go to the booking office refuse a ticket that says London Terminals on it and demand a ticket that says City Thameslink, as you are entitled to the the ticket you asked for. It will be interesting to see what happens, but point out strongly that a London Terminal ticket is not valid to City Thameslink via HS1.

As been said before, London Terminals tickets are not valid at Farringdon or beyond Farringdon.

The confusion is due to HS1, if you used the "classique" lines, a London Terminals ticket would be valid to City Thameslink as you would not pass through Farringdon.

 

[First class]

If you purchase a ticket to City Thameslink, then the ticket is valid to City Thameslink. It's not your fault that the ticket says "London Terminals" and next time you go to the booking office refuse a ticket that says London Terminals on it and demand a ticket that says City Thameslink, as you are entitled to the the ticket you asked for. It will be interesting to see what happens, but point out strongly that a London Terminal ticket is not valid to City Thameslink via HS1.

As been said before, London Terminals tickets are not valid at Farringdon or beyond Farringdon.

The confusion is due to HS1, if you used the "classique" lines, a London Terminals ticket would be valid to City Thameslink as you would not pass through Farringdon.

Sure, he can stand there all day. He can't complain then when they tell him it's more expensive for Zone U1 as his destination.

 

[transportphoto]

There is a £83.50 7d season between Gravesend and City Thameslink, however the ticket is showing as To: 1072 London Terminals.

Here is a Print Screen of my Avantix Traveller (NFM7) display:




[EDIT]If you are paying that price then may be it is time to complain to Southeastern (or which ever TOC sell's you the ticket) OR buy your ticket at City Thameslink asking for a 7d season from there to Gravesend (if you travel Mon - Fri then buy it on the Friday)[/EDIT]

HTH,

TP

 

[b0b]

Sure, he can stand there all day. He can't complain then when they tell him it's more expensive for Zone U1 as his destination.

Technically its the correct ticket.

Interestingly NFM07 says a Gravesend to City Thameslink (GRV to CTK) PLUS HIGH SPEED is showing as issued to 1072 LONDON TERMINALS, which is wrong.

SDR - ANYTIME DAY R SET
00131 - PLUS HIGH SPEED

1 Adult @£ 24.70 = £ 24.70
__________
£ 24.70

Standard Class Return
To : 1072 LONDON TERMINALS
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I could buy an all zone travelcard from Gravesend plus high speed for 98 pounds, but I don't want to do that unless I have to, since I only want to get off at City Thameslink, and as far as I'm aware it is NOT an underground station.

You can also buy a weekly St Pancras-City Thameslink season for 11.60 thats only valid on the Thameslink route to add on to a London Terminals ticket.

 

[First class]

I'm assuming a ticket to Farringdon for an extra 20p would do the job and simply finish early?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A ticket to London Terminals is never valid for travel through, from or to Farringdon station.

A season ticket from Gravesend to Farringdon (rte Plus High Speed) would be valid to City Thameslink as it is on a permitted route (it costs more than the 'rte Not Valid On HS1' fare and is therefore valid by routes on that ticket).

As far as I can see there is no Gravesend to City Thameslink ticket (it is not in the fares finder in the FRPP), only to London Terminals. City Thameslink is a London Terminal, but only on journeys from the south.

The barrier staff at City probably see thousands of London Terminals tickets everyday and, even if they cared, there is no realistic way for them to say you have or have not travelled from the north, only that you have come from that platform, but as there is access to both platforms at each end and a London Terminals ticket is valid for other journeys they have no real evidence of you travelling on a route that is not permitted, for all they know you were meeting someone off the train (I used to know of a chap who would leave his office to meet his 'friend' for lunch on platform one at City (I have no idea if he still does) who had travelled from the south for the 'pleasure').

They probably could prove it if they delayed you and got the CCTV footage from the control room, but in reality that will rarely (if ever) happen.

The staff at St Pancras (FCC) should have noticed the ticket wasn't valid, but it may depend on there training or if they even care that it isn't valid.

 

[b0b]

A season ticket from Gravesend to Farringdon (rte Plus High Speed) would be valid to City Thameslink as it is on a permitted route (it costs more than the 'rte Not Valid On HS1' fare and is therefore valid by routes on that ticket).

However the ticket would not be valid on the train between Farringdon and City Thameslink should you really be unlucky to meet an RPI. The ticket is being issued incorrectly to City Thameslink, Route HS1 if it says "London Terminals".

It is interesting that the ticket is correctly issued to Farringdon though!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How about this fare instead:

GRV to EPH, +ANY PERMITTED

7DS - SEVEN DAY STD SET
00000 - +ANY PERMITTED

1 Adult @£ 55.40 = £ 55.40
__________
£ 55.40

Standard Class Season



There is a more expensive +NOT VALID ON HS1 fare and a cheaper NOT LONDON fare - so is this fare valid on HS1 and allows travel to Elephant and Castle on the Thameslink route???? (breaking at CTK obviously)


.
.
.

more edit:

looks like the 7DS pricing is in error on NFM07 as the any permitted non seasons GRV-EPH are more than the Not HS1s......

even more edit:

probably HS1 is not a valid route for GRV-EPH, never mind.

 

[dan_atki]

However the ticket would not be valid on the train between Farringdon and City Thameslink should you really be unlucky to meet an RPI.

But it would be valid at City Thameslink as it is a season which (by the price of it) allows travel on the classic SE line and, therefore, City Thameslink is an intermediate station between Farringdon and Gravesend.

 

[b0b]

But it would be valid at City Thameslink as it is a season which (by the price of it) allows travel on the classic SE line and, therefore, City Thameslink is an intermediate station between Farringdon and Gravesend.

Yes, a season ticket GRV-ZFD would be valid, I agree.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
.
.
.

OP: Simple answer, buy a season ticket Gravesend - Farringdon PLUS HIGH SPEED.


7DS - SEVEN DAY STD SET
00131 - PLUS HIGH SPEED

1 Adult @£ 84.60 = £ 84.60
__________
£ 84.60

Standard Class Season
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
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.
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looking at it more, I believe the GRV-EPH ticket is valid on HS1, does anyone else agree?

Additional routes if the fares check rule passes for Routeing Point Pair, from=Routeing Point: Gravesend, to=Routeing Point: Herne Hill for ticket types SOS,SDS,SVS,CDS
Check that the Station: Gravesend to Station: Elephant & Castle fare is not less than the fare from Routeing Point: Gravesend[Station: Gravesend] to Station: Elephant & Castle
Check that the Station: Gravesend to Station: Elephant & Castle fare is not less than the fare from Station: Gravesend to Routeing Point: Herne Hill[Station: Herne Hill]
[Map: NK, Map: ††, Map: SL]
[Routeing Point: London Group, Routeing Point: London Group]
[Map: HK, Map: ††, Map: SL]
[Routeing Point: London Group, Routeing Point: London Group]


I did the fares check rule for Herne Hill and its the same as Elephant and Castle, and HK+SL allows HS1 and cross London via Thameslink (or tube!) .

 

[A60K]

A ticket to London Terminals is never valid for travel through, from or to Farringdon station.

I have to pick you up on the 'never ... through ... Farringdon' part of this - tickets to London Terminals where a permitted route would be to Moorgate (e.g. Hertford North - London Terminals) are also valid between Kings Cross and Old Street/Moorgate on the Underground. I agree that's not applicable in this case though!

 

[b0b]

ok - London Terminals tickets are not valid at Farringdon, or any station reached by passing through Farringdon on the Thameslink route.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I have to pick you up on the 'never ... through ... Farringdon' part of this - tickets to London Terminals where a permitted route would be to Moorgate (e.g. Hertford North - London Terminals) are also valid between Kings Cross and Old Street/Moorgate on the Underground. I agree that's not applicable in this case though!

 

[A60K]

I know, sorry, pedant mode is off now It's a terribly obscure routing and something which I used to explain often to new barrier staff at Kings Cross LU station, "Whereyougoinwiththisthenguv?" or "It ain't got a cross so it ain't allowed down ere" being quite common!

 

[talltim]

Surely the 'London Terminals' terminology is misleading? You can break a journey with a season, so you get off at Faringdon on your journey to a southern London terminal. In fact terminals implies you should use more than one!

 

[b0b]

Surely the 'London Terminals' terminology is misleading? You can break a journey with a season, so you get off at Faringdon on your journey to a southern London terminal. In fact terminals implies you should use more than one!

You can not break a journey from the north (ie, traveling from Kentish Town on the Thameslink route) at any point south of St Pancras on a London Terminals ticket, even with a season ticket as there is no London Terminal beyond St Pancras.

If you had a season ticket that had valid routes that allowed you to travel to London Terminals by travelling north or south on the Thameslink route, then your season would be valid between Blackfriars and City Thameslink as well as Kentish Town to St Pancras, but is still NOT valid between St Pancras and City Thameslink.

 

[OwlMan]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How about this fare instead:

GRV to EPH, +ANY PERMITTED

7DS - SEVEN DAY STD SET
00000 - +ANY PERMITTED

1 Adult @£ 55.40 = £ 55.40
__________
£ 55.40

Standard Class Season



There is a more expensive +NOT VALID ON HS1 fare and a cheaper NOT LONDON fare - so is this fare valid on HS1 and allows travel to Elephant and Castle on the Thameslink route???? (breaking at CTK obviously)
more edit:

looks like the 7DS pricing is in error on NFM07 as the any permitted non seasons GRV-EPH are more than the Not HS1s......

even more edit:

probably HS1 is not a valid route for GRV-EPH, never mind.

HS! is not a valid route unless the ticket has +HS1 in its validty unless it is a long distance through ticket (which means any stations beyond St Parncras

From South Eastern Website

The following ticket descriptions entitle you to travel on high speed services:

PLUS HIGH SPEED – this is shown on either a walk up or supplement ticket.
UPGRADE + HS – this is shown on a supplement ticket and must be accompanied by a Southeastern ticket that is not valid on high speed services.
ANY PERMITTED - in the case of long distance through tickets, i.e. destinations beyond St Pancras.
Tickets that are not valid on the high speed route specifically state ‘Not Valid on HS1’, unless a supplement has been purchased.

 

[mallard]

HS! is not a valid route unless the ticket has +HS1 in its validty unless it is a long distance through ticket (which means any stations beyond St Parncras

From South Eastern Website

I think you're misinterpreting the website there, but I agree it isn't all that clear. Note that it says "Tickets that are not valid on the high speed route specifically state ‘Not Valid on HS1’, unless a supplement has been purchased." Therefore, if a ticket does not say "Not Valid on HS1" and the RG says that HS1 can be used, then the ticket is valid. This would include a ticket marked "+ANY PERMITTED".

However, I am no expert on routing and have no idea how it works within the LONDON routing point - so I can't say if a ticket to Elephant and Castle would be valid via HS1 and Thameslink. My suspicion would be that it is not.

 

[b0b]

Then it leaves the obvious question what that ticket is actually valid on then, considering there is a more expensive +NOT HS1 7DS ticket and a cheaper NOT LONDON.

If you do a comparison using the fares check rule, the +ANY PERMITTED SDS is more expensive than the +NOT VALID ON HS1, so you could take the position that the 7DS +ANY PERMITTED allows both HS1 and classic routes.

No PLUS HIGH SPEED fares are shown for this flow.

 

[talltim]

You can not break a journey from the north (ie, traveling from Kentish Town on the Thameslink route) at any point south of St Pancras on a London Terminals ticket, even with a season ticket as there is no London Terminal beyond St Pancras.

On Thameslink, St Pancras isn't a terminus either

If you had a season ticket that had valid routes that allowed you to travel to London Terminals by travelling north or south on the Thameslink route, then your season would be valid between Blackfriars and City Thameslink as well as Kentish Town to St Pancras, but is still NOT valid between St Pancras and City Thameslink.

I'm not disputing that you are correct, but I do feel the naming of the ticket/s is wrong

 

[b0b]

The easiest way to think of it is to pretend the Thameslink route between St Pancras and City Thameslink is really part of the tube network for the purposes of ticketing - although you can buy a ticket to the specific destination of Farringdon if you like.

 

[dan_atki]

I'm not disputing that you are correct, but I do feel the naming of the ticket/s is wrong

In some cases, specifically Southern/Southeastern/South West Trains stations to London Terminals, the Routeing Guide allows travel to more than one terminal - thereby giving the customer flexibility in which they choose. In other cases, there is only one terminal that is valid but the generic name 'London Terminals' is still used for simplicity.

 

[MikeWh]

The easiest way to think of it is to pretend the Thameslink route between St Pancras and City Thameslink is really part of the tube network for the purposes of ticketing - although you can buy a ticket to the specific destination of Farringdon if you like.

You say that, but when it comes to Oyster you do not have to pay the U1 supplement if you make your cross London journey via the Thameslink Route. The single fare from (for example) South Eastern stations to London Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon and St Pancras International is always the same.

 

[cyclebytrain]

I've been thinking about this, what about Gravesend to St Pancras (as opposed to London terminals) route +HS1? Since this is more expensive than the route not HS1, then presumably it's also valid between London Bridge and St Pancras?

 

[John @ home]

I can't find a GRAVESEND - LONDON ST PANCRAS route + HS1 fare in the Fares Manual.

 

[b0b]

Nobody likes my GRV->EPH 7DS suggestion? I can't see why its not valid on HS1 other than it doesn't say PLUS HIGH SPEED, but a cheaper fare does exist thats +NOT VALID ON HS1.....

 

[John @ home]

Nobody likes my GRV->EPH 7DS suggestion? I can't see why its not valid on HS1 other than it doesn't say PLUS HIGH SPEED, but a cheaper fare does exist thats +NOT VALID ON HS1.....

That's not what I'm seeing.

Origin : GRAVESEND
Destination : ELEPHANT & CSTLE
Ticket Type : 7DS - SEVEN DAY Standard Class Season

Route
NOT LONDON £47.20
+ANY PERMITTED £55.40
+NOT VALID ON HS1 £62.50

 

[b0b]

That's not what I'm seeing.

If you do a fares comparison for the ticket type that is valid for determining routeing points, the +ANY PERMITTED is more than the +NOT VALID ON HS1.

SDS:
Route
NOT LONDON £7.20
+ANY PERMITTED £12.40
+NOT VALID ON HS1 £9.70


even if you use the 7DS fares, then I think it has to be valid on HS1, but possibly not via London if you don't!

 

[OwlMan]

If you do a fares comparison for the ticket type that is valid for determining routeing points, the +ANY PERMITTED is more than the +NOT VALID ON HS1.

SDS:
Route
NOT LONDON £7.20
+ANY PERMITTED £12.40
+NOT VALID ON HS1 £9.70


even if you use the 7DS fares, then I think it has to be valid on HS1, but possibly not via London if you don't!

Bob

"Any Permitted" route tickets are only valid on HS1 if they go further than St Pancras. They are not valid from a south eastern station to a Southern/FCC/South Eastern Station south of the Thames. For that you need a +HS1 ticket or buya supplement to travel on HS1 (see South Eastern website)

Peter.

Another reason I have just thought of.

Elephant & C has London Group as one of its associated Routeing Points.

Fare Gravesend - London via HS1 is £12-50
Fare Gravesend to Elephant (Any P) is £12-40
Therefore London is not a valid Routeing point.

Under the fares rule you are not allowed to pass through a station that has failed the fares rule. You are therefore unable to pass through London.

NRM page F8
Being able to trace the journey on a map or combination of maps does not mean a good train service follows the route of your choosing. Some will be better than
others. To choose the best one for you, consult the National Rail Timetable. Sheffield to Inverness has 7 different route codes. You may choose any route you
can find which does not double back, pass through a station forbidden by the fares route, or avoid a station which the fares route demands.

Also see example page F5, F6

Peter