Confirmation that Pacers should be abolished

[sprinterguy]

What seating is there in the former North West Trains "facelifted" units? Been a while since I was last on one, can't remember. If it's 2+2 seating, then there are only 5 142s with original bus seating, although there are a considerable number of Merseyrail 3+2 seating units that I reckon are worse! I don't mind the bus seats, although when I was young I'd always crack my head against the metal bar at the top of the seat: I reckon that could be a big issue in any major collision where there is a sudden deceleration.
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I'm lucky/luckier to have moved offices. This morning I was blessed (?) with a Northern Rail .....something....can't remember....There seemed to have been a relic of a buffet between carriages, that was odd....
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A 180 perhaps? Can't think of any other Northern stock that would have a decommisioned buffet.

 

[PR1Berske]

What seating is there in the former North West Trains "facelifted" units? Been a while since I was last on one, can't remember. If it's 2+2 seating, then there are only 5 142s with original bus seating, although there are a considerable number of Merseyrail 3+2 seating units that I reckon are worse! I don't mind the bus seats, although when I was young I'd always crack my head against the metal bar at the top of the seat: I reckon that could be a big issue in any major collision where there is a sudden deceleration.
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A 180 perhaps? Can't think of any other Northern stock that would have a decommisioned buffet.

I bow to your greater knowledge in this.

 

[Lampshade]

I bow to your greater knowledge in this.

Which route? It'll most likely have been one of these.

 

[142094]

Not many?! Out of Northern's 142 (including ones subleased to FGW) there are 29 out of 79 with high back seating, which are mainly in the North East and Yorkshire. The rest, which are mainly in the Manchester, Liverpool and Preston areas, have either the original bus style seats or the Merseytravel low back seats.

Fair enough, however I still think that you'd get some sort of neck injury on any train doing an emergency stop not just Pacers. Perhaps there is a small problem with the seating but still that doesn't say they are unsafe.

 

[northwichcat]

What seating is there in the former North West Trains "facelifted" units?.

All of Northern's units have the same seating they had when Northern took over (in the case of 142s either bus seats or Merseytravel seats which are a newer style of bus seat.) The 142 refurb is simply removing the NWT seat covers off the bus seats and replacing them with a darker colour Northern seat cover (as well as splashing some dusky pink paint around.) Northern haven't added new seats to any of their units, although on a few units broken seats have been removed and not replaced.

If it's 2+2 seating

2+2 seating in the former FNW area is rare. 142s are mostly 3+2 and 150s and 323s are all 3+2 and they seem to run the majority of North West services. If you're on a Liverpool, Preston or Blackpool service and you're lucky you get a 156 (or if you're very lucky a 180) with 2+2 seating.

 

[sprinterguy]

So just to confirm, the First North Western "facelift" in 2004/5 didn't replace the bus seats? In which case there's a lot more than 5 running around with bus seats after all.

 

[northwichcat]

So just to confirm, the First North Western "facelift" in 2004/5 didn't replace the bus seats? In which case there's a lot more than 5 running around with bus seats after all.

I think you mean 1994/1995 not 2004/2005. All the North Western Trains 142s (except the Merseyrail ones) got replacement blue seat covers but kept the bus seats. The only difference between the 5 'unrefurbished' ones and the rest of the fleet was that those 5 didn't get a new floor covering or a cycle rack installed, other than that they were the same as the rest.

Northern have in the past year or two replaced the seat covers yet again but haven't touched the floors or added cycle racks on any units.

 

[142094]

All of Northern's units have the same seating they had when Northern took over (in the case of 142s either bus seats or Merseytravel seats which are a newer style of bus seat.) The 142 refurb is simply removing the NWT seat covers off the bus seats and replacing them with a darker colour Northern seat cover (as well as splashing some dusky pink paint around.) Northern haven't added new seats to any of their units, although on a few units broken seats have been removed and not replaced.

That's not totally correct, the Heaton based 142s have the 2+2 Richmond seating that was introduced when Northern Spirit held the franchise, and some of these have been replaced like for like (last time I visited Heaton there were a few spares knocking around).

 

[sprinterguy]

I think you mean 1994/1995 not 2004/2005. All the North Western Trains 142s (except the Merseyrail ones) got replacement blue seat covers but kept the bus seats. The only difference between the 5 'unrefurbished' ones and the rest of the fleet was that those 5 didn't get a new floor covering or a cycle rack installed, other than that they were the same as the rest.

Northern have in the past year or two replaced the seat covers yet again but haven't touched the floors or added cycle racks on any units.

No, First North Western 142s were sent to Kilmarnock for some sort of work to be done on them in the early part of the last decade: Maybe a couple of years before 2004/5, but definitely post 2002, as I remember them passing through Carlisle on their way up: This work definitely involved some sort of internal refresh, not quite sure what though. For the sake of argument, I'll assume they retain bus seats.
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That's not totally correct, the Heaton based 142s have the 2+2 Richmond seating that was introduced when Northern Spirit held the franchise, and some of these have been replaced like for like (last time I visited Heaton there were a few spares knocking around).

So do all the former Northern Spirit units still retain the Northern Spirit seat covers these days? Given that they have a different type of seat to the other Pacer units, I wouldn't be surprised if Northern haven't touched them yet to change the seat fabric due to the differences in fitting it.

 

[PR1Berske]

Which route? It'll most likely have been one of these.

That looks awfully familiar. From ... Blackpool (?) to Hazel Grove this morning. My user name should give you a clue from where my journey started

 

[MCR247]

That looks awfully familiar. From ... Blackpool (?) to Hazel Grove this morning. My user name should give you a clue from where my journey started

Yes that would be one of those 180s

 

[Lampshade]

So do all the former Northern Spirit units still retain the Northern Spirit seat covers these days? Given that they have a different type of seat to the other Pacer units, I wouldn't be surprised if Northern haven't touched them yet to change the seat fabric due to the differences in fitting it.

Yes, all Northern Spirit refurbs (142015 - 022/024 - 026/050/065/066/071/078/079/084/086 - 096) have the Northern Spirit upholstery. The seats on these are the best of any Pacer anywhere.

Northern didn't really refurbish the ex-FNW units, they just fitted new seat covers and painted the grab rails pink. FGW did the same with the 5x142s they're sub leasing from Northern, they just fitted Local Lines seat covers and left it at that. The Merseytravel ones, well the less said about those the better.

 

[northwichcat]

No, First North Western 142s were sent to Kilmarnock for some sort of work to be done on them in the early part of the last decade: Maybe a couple of years before 2004/5, but definitely post 2002, as I remember them passing through Carlisle on their way up: This work definitely involved some sort of internal refresh, not quite sure what though. For the sake of argument, I'll assume they retain bus seats.

Well they certainly didn't get replacement seats or replacement seat covers between 2002 and 2005. The original seat covers were brown and the ones they've had until very recently is the North Western Trains blue meaning they were done in the late 1990s as First North Western used standard First colour purple seat covers on units they refurbed such as the 323s.

Why would FNW had been changing the interiors so close to the end of the franchise? I suspect if they did go to Kilmarnock it was for essential technical changes not internal visual changes.

I've had the misforunte to get 142s as the staple traction on my local line since North Western Trains decided to use them to replace the 150s that were previously the staple traction on the line under RR, so I would quickly notice any internal changes.

 

[sprinterguy]

Well they certainly didn't get replacement seats or replacement seat covers between 2002 and 2005. The original seat covers were brown and the ones they've had until very recently is the North Western Trains blue meaning they were done in the late 1990s as First North Western used standard First colour purple seat covers on units they refurbed such as the 323s.

Why would FNW had been changing the interiors so close to the end of the franchise? I suspect if they did go to Kilmarnock it was for essential technical changes not internal visual changes.

Fair enough, just wanted to be sure that the ex-FNW 142s still had bus seats. The Kilmarnock work was linked to some sort of overhaul if I remember correctly, I remember it being said at the time that something was being done with the interiors as well.

I have to say I like the new Northern seat covers on the bus type seats on the Pacers.

 

[northwichcat]

So do all the former Northern Spirit units still retain the Northern Spirit seat covers these days? Given that they have a different type of seat to the other Pacer units, I wouldn't be surprised if Northern haven't touched them yet to change the seat fabric due to the differences in fitting it.

They've given the former ATN 150s new seat covers even though they were only 10 of these with the original BR seats but then they needed doing more than other units.

 

[142094]

So do all the former Northern Spirit units still retain the Northern Spirit seat covers these days? Given that they have a different type of seat to the other Pacer units, I wouldn't be surprised if Northern haven't touched them yet to change the seat fabric due to the differences in fitting it.

Not sure if all of them do but the ones in the NE area sure have. Northern have also been replacing the seat and headrest covers when needed, one I say recently had only been made at the start of the year and was in the same colour scheme as the rest (although it did stand out a lot against all the others due to it being less hacky).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I have to say I very much prefer the original bus type seating in the 142s; I find it much more comfortable than the more modern single person seats fitted to them.

 

[Vulcan]

I have to say I very much prefer the original bus type seating in the 142s; I find it much more comfortable than the more modern single person seats fitted to them.

They also allow a better all round view from the windows, without the high seat backs.

 

[4SRKT]

The view from a Pacer is certainly one of the best you can get from any train these days. Probably only a 153/155 or 156 is better. Much more to see when travelling than if you're trying to squint through the eye of a needle on a Pendolino

 

[Vulcan]

On the other hand, with all that glass and no sort of air conditioning, they take on the feel of a pair of greenhouses on wheels when the sun is beating down.
IMO the view from 155s is spoiled by that centre partiction, which you don't get on a Pacer.

 

[4SRKT]

On the other hand, with all that glass and no sort of air conditioning, they take on the feel of a pair of greenhouses on wheels when the sun is beating down.
IMO the view from 155s is spoiled by that centre partiction, which you don't get on a Pacer.

True. The 156 is the king in this respect.

Paced today the 4.5 miles from Morley into Leeds. Was pretty smooth TBF, and I've read so much on this about how INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS they are that I rode in the front car just to get the thrill of dicing with death. Train tickets in West Yorkshire are miles cheaper than going to Alton Towers you know.

[/IRONY]

 

[Lampshade]

The 155s have the partition because otherwise the roof would sag

My main gripe with the 142s, not Pacers in general, just 142s, is that the ones with bus seating make for a cold environment on board especially during the winter. 150s are the complete opposite, they're awful in summer whereas an ex-ATN refurb 142 makes for a pleasant journey.

 

[Vulcan]

True. The 156 is the king in this respect.

Paced today the 4.5 miles from Morley into Leeds. Was pretty smooth TBF, and I've read so much on this about how INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS they are that I rode in the front car just to get the thrill of dicing with death.

[/IRONY]

'like'

 

[142094]

Paced today the 4.5 miles from Morley into Leeds. Was pretty smooth TBF, and I've read so much on this about how INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS they are that I rode in the front car just to get the thrill of dicing with death. Train tickets in West Yorkshire are miles cheaper than going to Alton Towers you know.

I'm suprised you didn't have to use a sick bag, unless you were scoffing Fisherman's Friends

 

[tbtc]

True. The 156 is the king in this respect.

Paced today the 4.5 miles from Morley into Leeds. Was pretty smooth TBF, and I've read so much on this about how INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS they are that I rode in the front car just to get the thrill of dicing with death. Train tickets in West Yorkshire are miles cheaper than going to Alton Towers you know.

[/IRONY]

Scream if you wanna go faster

 

[YorkshireBear]

True. The 156 is the king in this respect.

Paced today the 4.5 miles from Morley into Leeds. Was pretty smooth TBF, and I've read so much on this about how INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS they are that I rode in the front car just to get the thrill of dicing with death. Train tickets in West Yorkshire are miles cheaper than going to Alton Towers you know.

[/IRONY]

Like this very much

 

[daikilo]

Like this very much

Fact is that the Pacers are cost-effective. Must have missed a step if roof aircon pods have disappeared or are deactivated. Not sure I can see a driver to a life limit for these units!

 

[4SRKT]

I've got an even more reckless friend who rode a 144 from Todmorden to Manchester Victoria this morning. You'll all be pleased to know that he's safe and well.

 

[142094]

I might try to get to Harrogate tomorrow - so it could be a 142 or 144. Lord only knows if we'll derail straight away...

 

[Lampshade]

I've got an even more reckless friend who rode a 144 from Todmorden to Manchester Victoria this morning. You'll all be pleased to know that he's safe and well.

Nothing wrong with 144s