Panoramic cars for scenic lines...

[Bletchleyite]

What about some sort of hydrogen Bimode version of the 755? Narrow power area would probably be at one end of the train, with first at the other end. Equally, this makes the arguement that you’d be better with a hydrogen/electric loco, with a few panoramic coaches and a DT at the other end? Equally once again, one may just suggest a hydrogen/electric version of the Matterhorn-Gotthard-Bahn, as @Bletchleyite spoke about.

I'd say hydrogen loco and Mk5as, but the windows on those are inexplicably tiny.

Mk4s have big windows, though they're getting on a bit. Will be nice to ride one of those in 1st along the North Wales Coast. As with Voyagers and 170s the sloped bodysides mean you get a good view up as well as out, so can see mountains above you without the need for having windows curved all the way round like the Swiss vehicles.

Class 397s have massive windows and narrow pillars, so maybe a hydrogen powered unit based on those?

The other company that seems to be able to do huge windows is Siemens - the Class 700 middle sections have only two very long ones in the space that a traditional Desiro has four shorter ones.

 

[HST43257]

I'd say hydrogen loco and Mk5as, but the windows on those are inexplicably tiny. As with Voyagers and 170s the sloped bodysides mean you get a good view up as well as out, so can see mountains above you without the need for having windows curved all the way round like the Swiss vehicles.

It’d be good to see if there’s a way to modify the Mk5As (or new builds perhaps) to have sloped sides so they can have the Swiss style panoramic view. Could they have a window all the way round the top of the carriage, since there’s no pan or anything to worry about?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’d be good to see if there’s a way to modify the Mk5As (or new builds perhaps) to have sloped sides so they can have the Swiss style panoramic view.

You could probably build a LHCS version of the 397 (sloped sides and huge windows). But if it's as easy you could put the hydrogen kit underneath, it's not like it's noisy in the way a diesel engine is, a hydrogen fuel cell MU would just sound like an EMU.

 

[HST43257]

You could probably build a LHCS version of the 397 (sloped sides and huge windows). But if it's as easy you could put the hydrogen kit underneath, it's not like it's noisy in the way a diesel engine is, a hydrogen fuel cell MU would just sound like an EMU.

Yes a good idea - would be good if the hydrogen fuel cell MU noise was just a little buzz almost.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes a good idea - would be good if the hydrogen fuel cell MU noise was just a little buzz almost.

Another idea... BR-era EMUs have huge, high windows, and 321s are already one of the conversion projects. Just have to line the seats up with them and fit aircon so the window opening isn't blocking the view out. Put luggage and vertical cycle racks against the door blanks plus side-facing seats for those non-tourist passengers who just want to fiddle with their phones.

156s aren't themselves bad, to be fair, having the same windows in an end-doored layout.

 

[30907]

we've had multiple incarnations of it in this country before on the West Highland Line and on the ECML to name just two examples.

Multiple, meaning a total of 5 vehicles; all bar the Scotrail DMU trailer were built for long-distance prestige services (over not exceptionally scenic routes at that - frankly they were a bit of a gimmick). Said cars only lasted in service for a few years, and were repurposed for Scottish scenic lines rather than scrap them (rightly IMO). So the archetypal BR observation car is a hand-me-down!

That said, a new build of 1st class cars for the next generation of Scotrail stock with good seat alignment and deep windows would make sense. If you had unpowered driving trailers rather than centre cars they would be suitable for all potential routes, electric, battery, hydrogen or bionic duckweed a choix. For a 2car unit you could make them composites or simply declassify them.

(You could add toplights if the structure permits, though I'm not convinced they are needed in the UK, where you would see clouds more than snowcapped peaks.)

 

[Iskra]

Multiple, meaning a total of 5 vehicles; all bar the Scotrail DMU trailer were built for long-distance prestige services (over not exceptionally scenic routes at that - frankly they were a bit of a gimmick). Said cars only lasted in service for a few years, and were repurposed for Scottish scenic lines rather than scrap them (rightly IMO). So the archetypal BR observation car is a hand-me-down!

That said, a new build of 1st class cars for the next generation of Scotrail stock with good seat alignment and deep windows would make sense. If you had unpowered driving trailers rather than centre cars they would be suitable for all potential routes, electric, battery, hydrogen or bionic duckweed a choix. For a 2car unit you could make them composites or simply declassify them.

(You could add toplights if the structure permits, though I'm not convinced they are needed in the UK, where you would see clouds more than snowcapped peaks.)

There have been plenty of observation vehicles of many different varieties going back a lot longer than that. Three wildly different examples here;

Google Image Result for https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/37423_and_inspection_saloon_Caroline_South_Wingfield.jpg?utm_source=en.wikipedia.org&utm_campaign=index&utm_content=original

Great Northern Directors' Saloon | Lewes

Great Northern Directors' Saloon, Lewes. 3,450 followers · 19 talking about this · 3 were here. GNR Directors' Saloon No. 43909 - Available on public services on the Bluebell Railway usually from...

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http://www.rail.co.uk/images/3328/original/3-royal-scotsman-balcony-co.gif

 

[Bletchleyite]

(You could add toplights if the structure permits, though I'm not convinced they are needed in the UK, where you would see clouds more than snowcapped peaks.)

To some extent a sloped bodyside as found on most UK stock but almost no Continental stock eases looking out and up in scenic places with mountains. A Voyager over Shap for example is a pleasure, as is a 170 up the Highland Mainline. Even Mk4s have a tilt profile and big windows (which is why I wonder if the answer might be as simple as a Mk4 FO with a suitable locomotive).

The current (soon to be replaced) generation of SSIF/FART (!) EMUs in Locarno do that on purpose:

SSIF/FART EMU, trainspo.com

 

[37424]

I am still waiting to see your 'business case' (let alone technical case) for effectively 'new' (presumably diesel-powered for the time being) luxury/panoramic/restaurant vehicles suitable to form centre cars for established franchised services on any of the routes suggested cheaper than a ROSCO might charge.

(I don't think that a Class 153 converted into a mobile bike shed is quite the 'experience' that this thread is about. Even that hasn't really been plain sailing.)

I suspect the business case is nonsense, I guess it works for cost a bomb charter tours using old written down stock, when the 156's need replacement maybe there is an argument for stock that is a bit more scenic orientated although of course they could just end up with some cascaded DMU's.

 

[30907]

There have been plenty of observation vehicles of many different varieties going back a lot longer than that. Three wildly different examples here;

Google Image Result for https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/37423_and_inspection_saloon_Caroline_South_Wingfield.jpg?utm_source=en.wikipedia.org&utm_campaign=index&utm_content=original

Great Northern Directors' Saloon | Lewes

Great Northern Directors' Saloon, Lewes. 3,450 followers · 19 talking about this · 3 were here. GNR Directors' Saloon No. 43909 - Available on public services on the Bluebell Railway usually from...

www.facebook.com

http://www.rail.co.uk/images/3328/original/3-royal-scotsman-balcony-co.gif

And there were loads of private saloons, Club Cars etc pre WW1 for that matter, but they weren't built for admiring the scenery. Caroline and the Royal Scotsman cars

However, there was a purpose-built scenic observation car - the LNWR Conwy Valley car which has been on the Bluebell almost since the beginning - I should have remembered that, having travelled on it in my youth - so my original comment isn't quite correct.

 

[Llandudno]

Entirely agree. I think there's a large potential market with some clever marketing, particularly in the highlands but also other key scenic routes like Settle and Carlisle. Some marketing along the lines of Caledonian Sleeper could go a long way if you are able to strip away the negative implementation! Ideally without the large price increase - a reservation supplement perhaps on longer end to end journeys - protecting the local intermediate usage (or supplement free for highland railcard holders).

We definitely have the scenery, which some tactical tree trimming will only improve. The international market has been growing year on year with the Jacobite becoming harder and harder to book onto in the past few years. An idea would be a premium version of the recent grand tour ticket. Ideally with a panoramic [road] coach connecting Mallaig to Kyle via Portree.

Hmm - Clever Marketing!

No point including any lines in Wales as I am pretty certain TfW don’t even have a Marketing Department.....!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Hmm - Clever Marketing!

No point including any lines in Wales as I am pretty certain TfW don’t even have a Marketing Department.....!

Whilst the Cambrian Coast is luckily "clear" for viewing - the HoW and Conway Valley (closed again for flooding BTW) , is basically a linear forest.

I don't know about "the market" - experiences quite recently on the RhB indicated that the clientele on the much praised Glacier Express was largely from the Far East , (seemingly in large groups) as Switzerland is now so expensive , the UK tourist business has basically gone. A great shame. Those trains now must be empty , bar a few locals doing "essential" trips , and zero ski-traffic.

Any idealism on dedicated scenic viewing trains - with bespoke stock - is going to be very expensive. In the past it was done with thriftily converted stock - as part of the basic train service offer. Economics will trump over clever marketing and indeed (for special train operating) - clever timetabling.

Note the Irish "de-luxe" special train has terminated and I think the stock is going elsewhere. A shame , but there must have been zero well heeled tourists over this year. There markets can be challenging.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Mallaig line 1960s

 

[Iskra]

Mallaig line 1960s

Very nice!

 

[quantinghome]

Whilst the Cambrian Coast is luckily "clear" for viewing - the HoW and Conway Valley (closed again for flooding BTW) , is basically a linear forest.

I don't know about "the market" - experiences quite recently on the RhB indicated that the clientele on the much praised Glacier Express was largely from the Far East , (seemingly in large groups) as Switzerland is now so expensive , the UK tourist business has basically gone. A great shame. Those trains now must be empty , bar a few locals doing "essential" trips , and zero ski-traffic.

Any idealism on dedicated scenic viewing trains - with bespoke stock - is going to be very expensive. In the past it was done with thriftily converted stock - as part of the basic train service offer. Economics will trump over clever marketing and indeed (for special train operating) - clever timetabling.

Note the Irish "de-luxe" special train has terminated and I think the stock is going elsewhere. A shame , but there must have been zero well heeled tourists over this year. There markets can be challenging.

Of course now is not the time to start running this sort of service. But it's safe to assume that the world will return to normal eventually, and likely within a couple of years.

At some point, and sooner rather than later, the 15X stock will be up for replacement. Panoramic coaches would be a (hopefully not too difficult) modification of the main stock rather than bespoke.

I'm not imagining we would have an entirely separate dedicated train. Adding a couple of first class panoramic coaches onto one existing diagram on each scenic route would probably do. Order a dozen to begin with, see if the idea works. If it fails, it's not a huge outlay; if it is successful then go with the follow-on order.

From a marketing perspective I guess the question is whether there's demand for high quality service on British scenic railways if there's no kettle at the front.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Of course now is not the time to start running this sort of service. But it's safe to assume that the world will return to normal eventually, and likely within a couple of years.

At some point, and sooner rather than later, the 15X stock will be up for replacement. Panoramic coaches would be a (hopefully not too difficult) modification of the main stock rather than bespoke.

I'm not imagining we would have an entirely separate dedicated train. Adding a couple of first class panoramic coaches onto one existing diagram on each scenic route would probably do. Order a dozen to begin with, see if the idea works. If it fails, it's not a huge outlay; if it is successful then go with the follow-on order.

From a marketing perspective I guess the question is whether there's demand for high quality service on British scenic railways if there's no kettle at the front.

Good points - a bit like the Chamonix line in France - which basically serves the region with no frills , but has some bespoke carriages in the consist. (I confess my enjoyment of same was diluted by then having 3 stroppy teenagers to amuse) !

 

[markymark2000]

Could CAF do the panoramic cars and then we could use the Cally sleaper lounge and seated cars, coupled to a panoramic coach. This can then do the Kyle line and Mallaig (loading gauge permitting). It uses stock which currently sits idle in the day so a huge cost saving. The only real cost would be the operating cost and the panoramic coach.

 

[Iskra]

Good points - a bit like the Chamonix line in France - which basically serves the region with no frills , but has some bespoke carriages in the consist. (I confess my enjoyment of same was diluted by then having 3 stroppy teenagers to amuse) !

You did better than me, RRB was running so I walked away and went up the mountain railway instead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2021 ==

Could CAF do the panoramic cars and then we could use the Cally sleaper lounge and seated cars, coupled to a panoramic coach. This can then do the Kyle line and Mallaig (loading gauge permitting). It uses stock which currently sits idle in the day so a huge cost saving. The only real cost would be the operating cost and the panoramic coach.

They clean it and service it during the day, so it's not exactly idle.

 

[markymark2000]

You did better than me, RRB was running so I walked away and went up the mountain railway instead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2021 ==


They clean it and service it during the day, so it's not exactly idle.

How long does it take to clean a lounge car? They can't surely be cleaning for 12 hours. Even if you take into account cleaning and set up time, it doesn't equal 12 hours. As the sleeper carriages won't be needed on the panoramic train, they could probably be left until once this special train has left. All you need is the lounge cars and seated cars (which surely can't take that long to clean). Also, given some normal service trains aren't cleaned daily, could you not get away with leaving some jobs in the lounge and seated cars so that they get done every 2 days (basically done in London where the train does sit through the day idle).

 

[Iskra]

How long does it take to clean a lounge car? They can't surely be cleaning for 12 hours. Even if you take into account cleaning and set up time, it doesn't equal 12 hours. As the sleeper carriages won't be needed on the panoramic train, they could probably be left until once this special train has left. All you need is the lounge cars and seated cars (which surely can't take that long to clean). Also, given some normal service trains aren't cleaned daily, could you not get away with leaving some jobs in the lounge and seated cars so that they get done every 2 days (basically done in London where the train does sit through the day idle).

They need restocking too, and refilling with water, plus all the shunting. What happens if the day train gets cancelled/stuck somewhere?

 

[markymark2000]

They need restocking too, and refilling with water, plus all the shunting. What happens if the day train gets cancelled/stuck somewhere?

What happens if any train gets cancelled or stuck? You have to deal with it as it happens. You prepare for the 98% of the time when it works, not the 2% of the time it doesn't. The CS does have time in London every 2 days for maintenance if that is needed. Also stock rotating means you should have very little down time. If you were to run the panoramic train as a normal service, you would find another unit to cover (as would happen now with any other train). If you were to run it as a tour, you just have to cancel the tour (as existing tour operators do if a train fails).

If we are going to get panoramic cars for scenic lines, we can't go wasting money on full trains hoping tourists come while we have trains sat around all day doing sod all. By all means, get specific stock but you can pay for it out of your pocket because I know sure as heck I don't want to be paying over the odds in tax for a new train when we already have half of the train, in the right locations, doing nothing.

 

[Iskra]

What happens if any train gets cancelled or stuck? You have to deal with it as it happens. You prepare for the 98% of the time when it works, not the 2% of the time it doesn't. The CS does have time in London every 2 days for maintenance if that is needed. Also stock rotating means you should have very little down time. If you were to run the panoramic train as a normal service, you would find another unit to cover (as would happen now with any other train). If you were to run it as a tour, you just have to cancel the tour (as existing tour operators do if a train fails).

If we are going to get panoramic cars for scenic lines, we can't go wasting money on full trains hoping tourists come while we have trains sat around all day doing sod all. By all means, get specific stock but you can pay for it out of your pocket because I know sure as heck I don't want to be paying over the odds in tax for a new train when we already have half of the train, in the right locations, doing nothing.

Just seems unnecessarily complicated to me.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Looking a bit further south from Scotland, using Class 150s on the Conwy Valley is such a missed opportunity - you have a spectacularly scenic line then you run trains on it with terrible window alignment (though admittedly the TfW /2s aren't as bad as /1s on which no seat has an acceptable view). The 197s promise to be no better. Perhaps dedicate one 197 set and rejig the seats to line up with the windows, which are quite big?

You could actually do something quite good with a D-train - the windows are huge - though I'm not sure it has the requisite premium feel.

Can somebody help me find a good seat on a 150? All the journies I ever did on an ATW 150 I either had my knees crushed (airline seats) or had only half a window (table seats, if you sat on the other side of the table you get the pillar to look at). Yet I'm sure I've seen a fully aligned table bay on a GWR 150/2, and somebody told me GWR didn't change the layout. Can anyone help with a seat plan?

Can we not just build 158 replacements with panoramic windows anyway?

I agree; don't bother messing around putting windows in the ceiling (which means equipment can't be put on the roof and we can't have overhead luggage racks), just make the windows nice and big (in both dimensions) and the pillars nice and small.

All the 158/159s ( there are rather a lot ) and even the 16x are going to be up for replacement over the same period - as they're all regional units & tend to work in scenic areas anyway it might be worth trying to buy in bulk rather than in the current piecemeal fashion, which might help bring the cost of such an awkward design requirement down. Mind you we're about to kick the system over anyway, so maybe some more centralised thinking will turn up just in time.

Southwest, Wales, Pennine areas, Scotland, all worth a look out the window every day.

Take the best bits of a 158, a 175, a 442 and a 444, make the window pillars a bit smaller and order a shed load in EMU, bi-mode and tri-mode variants. Bi-mode could be diesel, hydrogen or battery; all would have OHLE capability and tri-modes would also have 3rd rail. Don't buy 'em all at once though, spread it out to help keep the factory going and so they don't need replacing all at once at the end. Example routes include:

• ScotRail Inter7City network* (EMU)
• Cardiff-Portsmouth (tri-mode)
• Glasgow-Carlisle via Dumfries (EMU)
• Inverness-Wick (bi-mode)
• Waterloo-Exeter** (tri-mode)
• Leeds-Ribblehead-Carlisle
• Cambrian Lines (bi-mode)
• Birmingham - Stansted

A high-quality regional train interior might not be quite as special as having windows in the roof. But, if you ensure all seats are aligned with the windows, you get something almost as good that is suitable for a much wider range of routes and, therefore, economies of scale. You also benefit passengers on those routes which wouldn't get the specially built panoramic stock who might otherwise end up with a 195 with seats aligned with window pillars.

* probably less need for units to run in multiple here, so they could go with a 125mph unit instead, but they don't have the linespeeds to need it

** initially supplied with pantograph missing to be added later when Salisbury - Basingstoke is wired - may need slightly shorter vehicles so an 11-car train (6-car + 5-car) fits the platforms at Waterloo

I suspect the business case is nonsense, I guess it works for cost a bomb charter tours using old written down stock, when the 156's need replacement maybe there is an argument for stock that is a bit more scenic orientated although of course they could just end up with some cascaded DMU's.

The only DMUs that might replace ScotRail's 156s are the 158s planned following the latest franchise competition. If that doesn't happen soon we'll be into ScotRail's 2035 decarbonisation programme and something with batteries or hydrogen will take over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Take the best bits of a 158, a 175, a 442 and a 444, make the window pillars a bit smaller and order a shed load in EMU, bi-mode and tri-mode variants.

If it wasn't for them being "cheap as f***", as it were, the Class 397 bodyshell would be pretty much that - just do a 110mph variant with the gangwayed cab from the 730 rather than the pointy nose and add some form of generation facility and third rail pickup. The windows are massive, the pillars narrow, there's a slight taper so you do get a view upwards and the seats are aligned to the windows in Standard (in 1st you'd need to play with it a bit but it's not impossible).

I've talked for years of wanting to see a "Class 344" - the 397 is pretty close.

 

[yorksrob]

We have a lot of scenic routes that more could be made of. I'm personally sceptical that you need panoramic stock in the traditional sense (our mountains aren't that high).

Decent alignment with ordinary windows, comfortable seating and some decent catering can do the trick. The S&C with 158's and buffet trolley does a decent job at this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We have a lot of scenic routes that more could be made of. I'm personally sceptical that you need panoramic stock in the traditional sense (our mountains aren't that high).

Also to some extent UK stock tends to have tapered sidewalls, which gives a better view out and up, whereas the sidewalls of European stock tend to be vertical.

TBH, there's little to be said against a Class 170 for this purpose. Big windows, small pillars, tapered bodyside, wide doors for easy access on local services. I do look forward to one on the Heart of Wales Line at some point, even if it is a bit wasteful of fuel unless they retrofit mechanical transmissions to them. And I suppose the 197 is basically the same thing on the cheap.

 

[yorksrob]

Also to some extent UK stock tends to have tapered sidewalls, which gives a better view out and up, whereas the sidewalls of European stock tend to be vertical.

TBH, there's little to be said against a Class 170 for this purpose. Big windows, small pillars, tapered bodyside, wide doors for easy access on local services. I do look forward to one on the Heart of Wales Line at some point, even if it is a bit wasteful of fuel unless they retrofit mechanical transmissions to them. And I suppose the 197 is basically the same thing on the cheap.

Yes, some of those continental carriages look very bulky due to their loading gague.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, some of those continental carriages look very bulky due to their loading gague.

FWIW see post 38 for a pic of an EMU built deliberately for an amusingly named scenic line - it's basically shaped like a 170 with tapered bodysides instead of vertical with "rooflights".

Notably they are replacing them with regular FLIRTs, which have huge windows in the low-floor section.

 

[randyrippley]

All those Pacers had nice big panoramic windows, but no-one ever enthused over those.
Lancaster-Leeds and Preston-Leeds has some of the best scenery in the country and the Pacer windows displayed it well - but no-one ever noticed

 

[yorksrob]

All those Pacers had nice big panoramic windows, but no-one ever enthused over those.
Lancaster-Leeds and Preston-Leeds has some of the best scenery in the country and the Pacer windows displayed it well - but no-one ever noticed

I enjoyed the scenery from a 144 on Lancaster to Leeds on many occasions. Only problem was, nowhere to put your beer !

Usually used to get 158's on copy pit.