‘Banned’ locos

[Inversnecky]

There was interesting discussion of 40s and Peaks being banned from Glasgow Central after derailing on the curves and complex point work, presumably on account of their length:

Loco hauled trains into and out of Glasgow Central 1976-1981

Hi Does anyone have any railway lists or records from Glasgow Central for the years 1976-1981 at all please? Any help is much appreciated. Thank you Kemal Ali

www.railforums.co.uk

Are there other instances of locos being ‘banned’ for such reasons?

How did it operate in practice: was the ‘banned’ loco never put on a train at the start (eg Glasgow bound), or maybe a 40 was changed, say, at Carlisle for the last leg into Glasgow?

 

[UP13]

While researching another topic, apparently 9Fs were banned from Waterloo for some reason and never went further than Nine Elms. I remember reading on another site that a 9F was hauling an up passenger service for some reason and was replaced by another locomotive at Woking because it was banned from Waterloo.

They were also apparently banned from Wimbledon to Clapham Junction via Earlsfield because of the tight curves and their flangeless wheels, so they had to go via East Putney. However from what I can see on maps is that the East Putney route has far tighter curves.

 

[nlogax]

Was it due to the curves or the complex pointwork through Clapham and were they banned in both directions? The curves do look fairly similar on the Putney route but some of that may have been mitigated by the old link from East Putney to the Up Windsor which looked lightly shallower than the single bi-directional curve there now.

 

[simonw]

9Fs are banned from the network as a whole, due, I believe, to non flanges wheels on one axle.

A lot of GWR engines were banned from large areas of the network as they would foul the platforms due to their width in particular those with outside cylinders.

Edited as I missed the auto correct change of non flanged.

 

[Whistler40145]

There was interesting discussion of 40s and Peaks being banned from Glasgow Central after derailing on the curves and complex point work, presumably on account of their length:

Loco hauled trains into and out of Glasgow Central 1976-1981

Hi Does anyone have any railway lists or records from Glasgow Central for the years 1976-1981 at all please? Any help is much appreciated. Thank you Kemal Ali

www.railforums.co.uk

Are there other instances of locos being ‘banned’ for such reasons?

How did it operate in practice: was the ‘banned’ loco never put on a train at the start (eg Glasgow bound), or maybe a 40 was changed, say, at Carlisle for the last leg into Glasgow?

Class 40s were either changed at Carlisle or Barrhead

 

[DB]

9Fs are banned from the network as a whole, due, I believe, to nominated wheels on one axle.

That's my understanding too, although Evening Star has been moved by rail from one half of the NRM to the other in recent years, so they must have cleared it for the trackwork around York station.

With 40s and Peaks, I would assume that the issue is probably the 4-axle bogies rather than the length of the locos?

 

[Cowley]

Peaks were banned west of Bristol from the mid 1980s. They still occasionally made it further west though.

 

[Darandio]

With 40s and Peaks, I would assume that the issue is probably the 4-axle bogies rather than the length of the locos?

I'd have thought so too. There are longer locos than these that visit Glasgow Central on a regular basis.

 

[43096]

I'd have thought so too. There are longer locos than these that visit Glasgow Central on a regular basis.

The 92s are slightly longer, I believe?

 

[Darandio]

The 92s are slightly longer, I believe?

I believe so yes. 66's I think as well? Pretty sure they have been in and out of Glasgow at some point?

 

[43096]

I believe so yes. 66's I think as well? Pretty sure they have been in and out of Glasgow at some point?

Class 60, too. 66s will likely have been into Central at some point on engineering jobs; they may also have done the sleeper empties at some point.

Class 92s definitely have!

 

[Richard Scott]

I believe so yes. 66's I think as well? Pretty sure they have been in and out of Glasgow at some point?

As are 50s (certainly longer than peaks).

 

[Inversnecky]

Peaks were banned west of Bristol from the mid 1980s. They still occasionally made it further west though.

I wonder if such limits on their scope contributed to their removal from service.

 

[Cowley]

I wonder if such limits on their scope contributed to their removal from service.

I think it was more to do with them getting stranded far away from their maintenance depots (Toton and later Tinsley). Plus they were rapidly losing their passenger anyway at the time.

 

[172007]

Steam loco's are banned in the sectional appendix London North Western South from using crossovers situated within platforms. Believe its due to buffers potential striking platform edges.

 

[CW2]

The ban on 40s and Peaks into Glasgow Central came about following a derailment. The loco derailed on some newly-installed pointwork, and it was found there was a risk of the pony truck (the lightly-loaded leading axle of the 4-axle bogie) riding up and derailing on the curves. In consequence it became very rare to see a Peak or 40 in the vicinity of Glasgow Central. I recall at the beginning of the Summer holiday season in the mid-80s there was no electric loco available to work a Glasgow - Paignton overnight one Friday, so a class 40 was summoned from Mossend. The station pilot worked the train from Glasgow Central to Polmadie, and the class 40 took over from there.

The ban on Peaks west of Bristol was partly due to reliability issues, and partly due to the desire to do away with traction refreshers for traincrews on those classes.

 

[Crewe Exile]

The ban on Peaks was either 85 or 86 but it was not set in stone. They went down to Paignton on a good few occasions after - indeed Bristol would be quite partial to putting one on a Taunton local

 

[Richard Scott]

The ban on Peaks was either 85 or 86 but it was not set in stone. They went down to Paignton on a good few occasions after - indeed Bristol would be quite partial to putting one on a Taunton local

There was a diagram in 1987 16.48 Bristol to Weston and return. Took a picture of 45144 on it during the summer.

 

[Journeyman]

Lots of locos in the final days of steam were banned under the wires on the WCML for clearance reasons, with the affected locos having a diagonal yellow stripe on the cab sides. It seemed a bit inconsistent, though, as some members of a class were identified as such, and others weren't.

 

[contrex]

I've got a feeling that after the end of steam, locomotives in general were banned from Charing Cross.

 

[Romsey]

It's not always the overall length that is the problem, in the case of Peaks and class 40's it was the length of the fixed wheelbase of the bogies.
( they were also banned from Southampton Western Docks. due to track curvature.)

Other restrictions may exist due to bridge restrictions which prohibit vehicles of higher route availability than permitted by the structural engineer for the route. Having just seen the post about Charing Cross, all locos were barred over one bridge outside Waterloo East for many years. It has ben relaxed for class 73's on test trains in the last 10 years.

The general instructions for steam locos on Network Rail prohibit the use of crossovers between platforms due to the "end throw". ( Buffer beam to first non articulated axle.) If this doesn't make sense, have a look at the gouges from buffer beans opposite the crossover at Kingswear station. Other restrictions are common to all steam locos like not stopping under 25kv OHLE under bridges or in Tunnels, under neutral sections or section insulators.

 

[Inversnecky]

Lots of locos in the final days of steam were banned under the wires on the WCML for clearance reasons, with the affected locos having a diagonal yellow stripe on the cab sides. It seemed a bit inconsistent, though, as some members of a class were identified as such, and others weren't.

I’d heard steam were banned on the Woodhead DC lines too: soot affecting the overhead lines.

In which case, this 37 was on a sticky wicket:

 

[Journeyman]

I’d heard steam were banned on the Woodhead DC lines too: soot affecting the overhead lines.

In which case, this 37 was on a sticky wicket:

Steam locos were allowed to operate as far as I know, but weren't allowed to operate under their own power through the new Woodhead tunnel. They had to be hauled through it by an electric loco, although they were allowed to be in steam at the time. I can't imagine that happened very often, though.

 

[Whistler40145]

It's not always the overall length that is the problem, in the case of Peaks and class 40's it was the length of the fixed wheelbase of the bogies.
( they were also banned from Southampton Western Docks. due to track curvature.)

Other restrictions may exist due to bridge restrictions which prohibit vehicles of higher route availability than permitted by the structural engineer for the route. Having just seen the post about Charing Cross, all locos were barred over one bridge outside Waterloo East for many years. It has ben relaxed for class 73's on test trains in the last 10 years.

The general instructions for steam locos on Network Rail prohibit the use of crossovers between platforms due to the "end throw". ( Buffer beam to first non articulated axle.) If this doesn't make sense, have a look at the gouges from buffer beans opposite the crossover at Kingswear station. Other restrictions are common to all steam locos like not stopping under 25kv OHLE under bridges or in Tunnels, under neutral sections or section insulators.

I've seen a video of a steam loco leaving London Liverpool Street and the chimney had been sat underneath an insulator, so after starting off, causing lots of sparking and a complete shorting of the OHLE

 

[UP13]

9Fs are banned from the network as a whole, due, I believe, to non flanges wheels on one axle.

A lot of GWR engines were banned from large areas of the network as they would foul the platforms due to their width in particular those with outside cylinders.

Edited as I missed the auto correct change of non flanged.

9Fs were banned from Waterloo even in steam days.

On the GWR, Kings were banned from Cornwall as they were too heavy for the Tamar Bridge. I think they were restricted to London to Plymouth/Birmingham only.

I've read somewhere about a Hall in steam days that somehow got used to go somewhere in the East Midlands or there abouts and had some close shaves with platforms, I think it even scratched up it's cylinders.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jan 2021 ==

I’d heard steam were banned on the Woodhead DC lines too: soot affecting the overhead lines.

In which case, this 37 was on a sticky wicket:

I think steam was prohibited from the Woodhead tunnel itself due to the length. I'm pretty sure steam still ran on the route itself.

I remember seeing archive footage of Flying Scotsman on a railtour on the route but needing to be dragged by a 76 or 77 through Woodhead Tunnel.

 

[Gloster]

There were also cases of locos being allowed over a section of line on their own, but not with other locos. Kings were permitted to run as far as Plymouth, but they weren’t supposed go through south Devon coupled, i.e. two Kings hauling a train. Bridges were often the main reason for such restrictions.

 

[Journeyman]

I've got a feeling that after the end of steam, locomotives in general were banned from Charing Cross.

I think you could be right. All the remaining loco hauled trains on the South Eastern Division went to/from Victoria.

Cannon Street also saw loco hauled trains banned for a while following the signal box fire in 1957. Temporary signalling arrangements made it very difficult to deal with shunt moves. This resulted in the Hastings DEMUs being rushed into service a couple of months earlier than planned.

 

[Whistler40145]

Was booked on a railtour from Preston to London and East Anglia, 1x31 to Crewe and 3x31 to London Victoria, then 3x33 around East Anglia, during the week before the tour we were advised that the bridge over the Thames had a weight restriction and had to take a rather long round the houses trip to change locos at Kensington Olympia

 

[TurboFintan]

There were also cases of locos being allowed over a section of line on their own, but not with other locos. Kings were permitted to run as far as Plymouth, but they weren’t supposed go through south Devon coupled, i.e. two Kings hauling a train. Bridges were often the main reason for such restrictions.

The Summer Saturday 10.35am Paddington to Penzance was hauled by a pair of Kings between Newton Abbot and Laira in the 1950s, the front King having come off the 10.30am Cornish Riviera. The Cornish Riviera ran non-stop through Plymouth so the King was exchanged for a pair of Halls at Newton Abbot instead of Laira or Plymouth. Bet it was some sight to see the pair chuffing up the South Devon banks!

In addition the 4700 2-8-0s were barred from going across the Royal Albert Bridge near Plymouth to Cornwall.

 

[CW2]

I was on a railtour with a King from London to Warwick and Stratford upon Avon. On the return journey the driver forgot to stop at Warwick. We were stopped by signals middle road at Leamington Spa. The missing passengers were sent by following DMU to Leamington Spa, and waite patiently on the platform. Problem was, the King was barred from the platform road at Leamington SPa station due to clearance issues, so we couldn't simply set back and then come into the platform road. Instead, after some negotiation, we drew forward, then set back into the platform, so that the rear of the train entered the station so passengers could board, but the loco remained clear of the platforms. A good bit of on-the-spot improvisation.