London Buses Discussion

[galwhv69]

What is the situation with LED blinds in London please? Are they only allowed under special circumstances? I thought I had read somewhere that TFL gave the Hi-res LED displays the green light.

They're allowed under special circumstances (Metroline Solo's gained standard LED's instead of the hi-res ones) such as on the Abellio E-City Golds and they're being trialled on more and more new vehicles. Examples are 6 Stagecoach MMC's (Post #369 by @londonteacher shows one) and the entire batch of upcoming Metroline Hydrogen Streetdecks for the 7 (Currently being delivered, at least 1 is at the garage). Haven't heard anything that they're going to be used on all buses though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2021 ==

Oh, then my apologies
To me it seemed weird that they couldn't fit blinds to them but that makes sense

No worries

 

[py_megapixel]

I do find it mildly interesting that TfL never insisted on blinds for the trams, which have always, as far as I'm aware, had LEDs.

 

[a340egkk]

I do find it mildly interesting that TfL never insisted on blinds for the trams, which have always, as far as I'm aware, had LEDs.

They were originally fitted with paper blinds.

 

[py_megapixel]

They were originally fitted with paper blinds.

But did any still have them by the time TfL bought out the network and gave it the green branding?

 

[Snow1964]

Some of the ex Tower Transit 2013 DNs (Enviro400s) SN13CHx have turned up at RATP, have heard at least 4 are at Hounslow Heath

Possibly cover for refurbishments for all the new contracts in 2021 (about 10 routes get existing buses), but not sure which routes might see them

 

[galwhv69]

But did any still have them by the time TfL bought out the network and gave it the green branding?

Nope, the blinds got replaced with Dot-Matrix Displays in 2006

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2021 ==

Some of the ex Tower Transit 2013 DNs (Enviro400s) SN13CHx have turned up at RATP, have heard at least 4 are at Hounslow Heath

Possibly cover for refurbishments for all the new contracts in 2021 (about 10 routes get existing buses), but not sure which routes might see them

Could they be to replace the Bedfont Lake service Scania's?

 

[cnjb8]

Some of the ex Tower Transit 2013 DNs (Enviro400s) SN13CHx have turned up at RATP, have heard at least 4 are at Hounslow Heath

Possibly cover for refurbishments for all the new contracts in 2021 (about 10 routes get existing buses), but not sure which routes might see them

Are they the SN13s Stagecoach Midlands just returned to Ensign?

 

[galwhv69]

Are they the SN13s Stagecoach Midlands just returned to Ensign?

Yes

 

[700007]

Are they the SN13s Stagecoach Midlands just returned to Ensign?

One of them is also ex-HCT Group 2601

 

[galwhv69]

News has come through that RATP are closing their Epsom garage, with routes 413, 463 & S1 transferring to Go Ahead around halfway through this year, not yet sure what will happen to the rest (such as the 404) but at a guess, some routes will move to Tolworth. Very sad news

 

[MotCO]

News has come through that RATP are closing their Epsom garage, with routes 413, 463 & S1 transferring to Go Ahead around halfway through this year, not yet sure what will happen to the rest (such as the 404) but at a guess, some routes will move to Tolworth. Very sad news

I'm not totally surprised that the garage is closing. Epsom Coaches was a good operation, and can understand why they sold up.

That said, I'm surprised the routes are transferring to Go-Ahead - could they not all be operated from Tolworth by RATP? Do you know which garage will operate the 413, 463 and S1? Will it be Croydon, or will they operate from Epsom?

 

[galwhv69]

I'm not totally surprised that the garage is closing. Epsom Coaches was a good operation, and can understand why they sold up.

That said, I'm surprised the routes are transferring to Go-Ahead - could they not all be operated from Tolworth by RATP? Do you know which garage will operate the 413, 463 and S1? Will it be Croydon, or will they operate from Epsom?

Apparently (I'm using that word because only the 413, 463 & S1 route situations have been confirmed) , the rest of the routes are moving to TV. No garages have been confirmed for the 413, 463 & S1, as the staff notice states this is still being finalised. Also been stated elsewhere that the OM class vehicles are moving to Go Ahead.
Personally, don't think that everything could fit into Tolworth, unless something else moves out. At the moment, the Kingston Uni service is being operated from HH due to staffing issues, so when that returns, it's also something to factor in.

 

[py_megapixel]

Am I correct that the Oystercard readers at the centre and rear doors of the NBfL vehicles are now not in use? If so, how long has this been the case?

 

[busesrusuk]

Am I correct that the Oystercard readers at the centre and rear doors of the NBfL vehicles are now not in use? If so, how long has this been the case?

They are out of use. The process started when the routes moved to front door boarding only. However they were not removed and it has been suggested that they still actually worked (presume some sort of linkage with the ticket machine.

I have noticed recently that quite a few NRM's have now had the remote readers removed

 

[700007]

I'm not totally surprised that the garage is closing. Epsom Coaches was a good operation, and can understand why they sold up.

That said, I'm surprised the routes are transferring to Go-Ahead - could they not all be operated from Tolworth by RATP? Do you know which garage will operate the 413, 463 and S1? Will it be Croydon, or will they operate from Epsom?

Space constraints and also distance from the routes operated at Tolworth as I understand it prevent RATP reasonably keeping all their work. The cost of operating from a depot so far away, factoring in ongoing staff issues and minimal resources available would probably not be profitable to keep the S1/413/463. My guess is that the 413 will come back home to Sutton (A) garage and 463 at Croydon (C) but not sure for the S1. That could possibly be Sutton (A) as well or Merton (AL).

In any case, I can't see RATP clinging onto the routes they have apparently chosen to keep beyond the current contract. I can see many of them being lost at tender.

 

[galwhv69]

Space constraints and also distance from the routes operated at Tolworth as I understand it prevent RATP reasonably keeping all their work. The cost of operating from a depot so far away, factoring in ongoing staff issues and minimal resources available would probably not be profitable to keep the S1/413/463. My guess is that the 413 will come back home to Sutton (A) garage and 463 at Croydon (C) but not sure for the S1. That could possibly be Sutton (A) as well or Merton (AL).

In any case, I can't see RATP clinging onto the routes they have apparently chosen to keep beyond the current contract. I can see many of them being lost at tender.

Confirmed that 413 is going to A whilst the 463 & S1 are going to C, the 413's Citaro's are to be transferred to A as well.

 

[700007]

An electric Optare Metrocity has strayed onto route 166

 

[chopperman21]

An electric Optare Metrocity has strayed onto route 166

Looks like it may have only managed West Croydon-South Croydon Bus Garage

 

[700007]

Looks like it may have only managed West Croydon-South Croydon Bus Garage

A shame; imagine the run through to Epsom Hospital and back!

An MMC meanwhile at Norwood has gone onto the 249 this evening

 

[chopperman21]

ex Tower Transit DN33798 is now at RATP as ADE40491

 

[TitanMike]

Route	Current Operator	New Operator	PVR​	Vehicles
313	Arriva London North	Arriva London North	8​	Existing New Routemaster
606	Metroline	Sullivan Buses	2​	Existing diesel double deck
645*	Arriva London South	Arriva London South	2​	Existing diesel double deck

These tender results were announced last Monday, i will try and update parts in this section when there is anything newsworthy as i work within the industry in London.

 

[smtglasgow]

I know the Routemasters have been on the 313 for a while, but is there a reason why a cross-border, outer suburban, relatively low frequency route was converted? Was it simply a case of there being just enough spare vehicles to convert the 313, but not a more likely candidate? Also, what is the expected lifespan of the New Routemasters – the earliest ones are 8/9 years old now? There’s going to be very little demand for them outside London, so will they be expected to have a longer life in the capital than the average bus on TfL work?

 

[Snow1964]

I know the Routemasters have been on the 313 for a while, but is there a reason why a cross-border, outer suburban, relatively low frequency route was converted? Was it simply a case of there being just enough spare vehicles to convert the 313, but not a more likely candidate? Also, what is the expected lifespan of the New Routemasters – the earliest ones are 8/9 years old now? There’s going to be very little demand for them outside London, so will they be expected to have a longer life in the capital than the average bus on TfL work?

It would seem that 313 conversion was based on buses being spare from cuts, however it has allowed Arriva to win the new 313 contract starting 6th November

It will be interesting to see what happens with the older routemasters, the 148 tender result is due anyday (and that uses buses which will be nearly 8 years old at contract start), probably offer a clue. There is talk of an overal 4% cut (14% in central London, nearer net 0% outer London) which could easily release 100 routemasters for other routes

I could easily foresee 150 of them working out their days on school routes, as they are virtually unsalable

 

[MotCO]

I know the Routemasters have been on the 313 for a while, but is there a reason why a cross-border, outer suburban, relatively low frequency route was converted? Was it simply a case of there being just enough spare vehicles to convert the 313, but not a more likely candidate?

Yes, I think that was the case.

Also, what is the expected lifespan of the New Routemasters – the earliest ones are 8/9 years old now? There’s going to be very little demand for them outside London, so will they be expected to have a longer life in the capital than the average bus on TfL work?

I think they will try to keep them going for as long as possible - it will be cheaper to refurb, re-engine or whatever, than buy new buses. It will depend on whether there are any structural weaknesses in the design of the bus, or whether there are any rust issues.

These buses are owned by TfL, therefore they will try to get maximum bung for their bucks, particularly when they are in their cash-strapped state. Alternatively, they could raise capital by selling them to their operators, but this will probably be at a cut-price, due to the non-existent demand elsewhere, and will increase future expenditure streams in the form of higher tender prices.

 

[LAIRA]

ex Tower Transit DN33798 is now at RATP as ADE40491

LVF lists ADE40491-40494 as SN13CHC/CHD/CHH/CHK

 

[Mikey C]

You can imagine all the major central London routes going over to electric buses in the next 5 years, displacing all the Borismasters from their natural territory. The oldest by then will have had a reasonable life

 

[MotCO]

You can imagine all the major central London routes going over to electric buses in the next 5 years, displacing all the Borismasters from their natural territory. The oldest by then will have had a reasonable life

Whilst TfL has said that no new diesel buses will be bought after 2020 for single deckers and 2025 for double deckers, some routes may not be suitable for conversion to all-electric power. It hs been said on this forum that the reason why electric buses have not been introduced on route 358, as required in the tender, is because the mileage range of current buses is not sufficient to run this intensive route. There may be problems running some 24 hour routes - when will the buses be recharged? - and many central London routes are 24 hour operations, so I would not expect all central London routes to be converted to electric within 5 years. Hydrogen yes, electric no.

The other problem is that the purchase price of non-diesel buses is substantially higher than for diesel buses, and this will be reflected in higher tender costs. Running costs may be lower, but may not offset the higher purchase price. Given the state of TfL finances, will this be affordable?

 

[Stan Drews]

Whilst TfL has said that no new diesel buses will be bought after 2020 for single deckers and 2025 for double deckers, some routes may not be suitable for conversion to all-electric power. It hs been said on this forum that the reason why electric buses have not been introduced on route 358, as required in the tender, is because the mileage range of current buses is not sufficient to run this intensive route. There may be problems running some 24 hour routes - when will the buses be recharged? - and many central London routes are 24 hour operations, so I would not expect all central London routes to be converted to electric within 5 years. Hydrogen yes, electric no.

The other problem is that the purchase price of non-diesel buses is substantially higher than for diesel buses, and this will be reflected in higher tender costs. Running costs may be lower, but may not offset the higher purchase price. Given the state of TfL finances, will this be affordable?

Were the new Routemasters not more expensive to buy than the current standard electric DD offerings?

Electric buses are more than capable of running intensive 24 hour routes. However, its likely that you would need more buses to maintain the schedule, due to the requirement to rotate buses for charging purposes. Much depends on the quality of the infrastructure, which is where much of the initial capital needs to be invested.

 

[MotCO]

Were the new Routemasters not more expensive to buy than the current standard electric DD offerings?

They were more expensive to buy than standard buses, plus they were amongst the first hybrid buses, which in itself makes them more expensive. I don't know if they were more expensive than current electric buses, but the New Routemasters' costs have already been incurred, at a time when TfL's finances were in better shape.

 

[700007]

They were more expensive to buy than standard buses, plus they were amongst the first hybrid buses, which in itself makes them more expensive. I don't know if they were more expensive than current electric buses, but the New Routemasters' costs have already been incurred, at a time when TfL's finances were in better shape.

Each Boris Bus costs around £350k at New, typical conventional diesel bus around £200k and each conventional hybrid bus around £300k. The ADL/BYD Electric MMC City combination is floated at around £400k per bus.

I know the Routemasters have been on the 313 for a while, but is there a reason why a cross-border, outer suburban, relatively low frequency route was converted? Was it simply a case of there being just enough spare vehicles to convert the 313, but not a more likely candidate? Also, what is the expected lifespan of the New Routemasters – the earliest ones are 8/9 years old now? There’s going to be very little demand for them outside London, so will they be expected to have a longer life in the capital than the average bus on TfL work?

The idea was to rehouse the LTs during the bus cuts in Central London but also because the 313 was in need of double deckers as well as the route was struggling with the single deckers. The conversion of the 313 to double decker was initially meant to be temporary to aid social distancing but given the unique nature of the allocation chosen, it was chosen to be made permanent as it would also be too difficult to rehome them within the company.