single fare 90% of return fare - grrrr!

[CheapAndNerdy]

No doubt a lot of people are annoyed by the cost of single fares when compared to day returns. A return from Norbury to Staines is £7.10, while a single is £6.40 - 90% of the cost!! There is no option for an open or weekend return, so if I want to stay with friends overnight I pay 80% extra simply because I split the journey over 2 days. I can't see any sensible justification for this (is there one?).

In the end I managed to get the total fare down to £7.90 by jumping through a few hoops:

Outward - Norbury to Isleworth (£1.70 Oyster PAYG), followed by bus to Staines (£1.20). Pretty cheap but journey takes over twice as long.

Return - Single from Staines to Feltham (£2.80). Nip out at Feltham, through the ticket gates and back in using Oyster PAYG to complete the journey for an extra £2.20 (just managed to get back on the same train).

One of the things I really like about Oyster PAYG is that the disparity between singles and returns is removed and represents IMO pretty good value.

 

[Deerfold]

One of the things I really like about Oyster PAYG is that the disparity between singles and returns is removed and represents IMO pretty good value.

Didn't they do that by getting rid of Cheap Day returns, making the returns a lot more expensive as they're now two singles?

 

[Greenback]

One way to look at it is that the single is the normal fare, and that there happens to be a huge discount if you want to come back the same day!

And it's the same here, 10p less for a single to Swansea compared to a day return, and no period return.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

Didn't they do that by getting rid of Cheap Day returns, making the returns a lot more expensive as they're now two singles?

A cheap day return from Norbury to Vauxhall used to be £3.10(?) - now it is 2x£1.50, so it's actually slightly cheaper in this case. I think the equivalent to London Victoria was £3.80, compared to 2x£2.

I wonder though what sort of price increase we'll see next year

 

[MikeWh]

Didn't they do that by getting rid of Cheap Day returns, making the returns a lot more expensive as they're now two singles?

The have removed the cheap day fares for paper tickets, but in terms of singles it is now considerably better. Whereas the cheap day single was something like 90% of the cheap day return the off-peak single on Oyster is a maximum of half the old cheap day return. The extra sting in the tail is the addition of the afternoon peak between 4 and 7, but at least the cap remains off-peak.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

One way to look at it is that the single is the normal fare, and that there happens to be a huge discount if you want to come back the same day!

And it's the same here, 10p less for a single to Swansea compared to a day return, and no period return.

Yes, that certainly is one way to look at it Another way is that I am just a cheap [profanity] and hate paying more than I think I should.

I could have reduced the total fare even further if I had retraced the outward journey on the return leg but being a Sunday, buses frequencies and train connections were against me.

 

[mumrar]

Another way of looking at it is it stops people who are making a return journey in a non Penalty Fare area boarding with nothing, getting charged for a single by the guard, and trying their luck on the return trip, and if they get caught again, pay more than the return would have cost them. I know people who still do try this, and have even had one do so on two trains I was working on the same day.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

...The extra sting in the tail is the addition of the afternoon peak between 4 and 7.

If I spend the afternoon at museums and galleries I will usually hang around until after 7 before returning home. I tell myself it's to avoid travelling on overcrowded commuter trains, but the real reason is that I object to paying the afternoon peak fare.

 

[MikeWh]

If I spend the afternoon at museums and galleries I will usually hang around until after 7 before returning home. I tell myself it's to avoid travelling on overcrowded commuter trains, but the real reason is that I object to paying the afternoon peak fare.

Agreed, I do the same if I have the choice. But things like an hour long journey to watch a football match that kicks off at 7.45 or 8, or taking kids to an after school music group between 5 and 6 really do sting you.

 

[W-on-Sea]

I tell you what, though, it really hits you, doing reasonably short (like say 20-30 mile) journeys on regional trains (TERs) in France - where in many cases a single costs approximately what one might expect to pay for an equivalent journey in the UK, but a return is, perfectly logically, double that.

Essentially our singles are ludicrously overpriced, and our returns are greatly discounted. Where this is particularly ludicrous/annoying is if you want to do a journey out on one line, then walk (or reach by whatever other means) to a station on another line, then return by train to your original destination. (say, London - Aylesbury - walk - Tring - London). That way, with no interavailability of tickets, you're stung for two overpriced singles.

I've often thought that, for local journeys that are made on local, as opposed to intercity or similar, trains, just pricing them by band according to distance (as is done in many parts of Italy) would be a lot fairer, and perhaps more sensible. Thus for that sort of journey you could just get two singles or a return to a "50 miles from London" band or whatever. But of course things are far more complicated that that....

 

[mumrar]

<Comment removed>

Cheers for that, what a charming and informative post.

 

[sprinterguy]

I follow Greenbacks' way in thinking that the day return is hugely discounted: A lot of tickets with Birmingham New Street as a starting point seem to offer a nominal token price increase for a day return over a single: 5p more for a return for many journeys! It always seems worthwhile to me to buy a return, even if I don't know for sure if I'll be returning or not when the difference is so small. But it does make you wonder why the tickets are priced this way, and it is frustrating when buying two singles is the only option available.

 

[Greenback]

I believe this was intentional. In the days of BR, it was decided that the market for a cheap day return was completely different to the peak market, and so CDR's were introduced that were actually cheaper than singles. This was seen as ludicrous by the media (as people were buying CDR's for one way journeys!) so CDS's were brought in at 10p less than the CDR.

Since then, period returns over short distances have been abolished, but as they were often twice the CDR price anyway, there was no great outcry!

 

[jopsuk]

Do CDs fares still exist? Don't seem to be any local to me- so Standard Off peak Return (CDR) is slightly more expensive than a single. But the idea is that a reurn ticket is always cheaper than two singles, to try and tie you in to using rail both ways.
Take Cambridge-London Kings Cross as an example (undiscounted fares)
Anytime Single: £19.10
Anytime Return: £37.00
So, there's a slight discount for buying a Return versus two singles. Not big, but there's as a sweetener

Then the cheaper options kick in:
Anytime Day Return: £32.50
Definitely coming back today? here's a dicount for forgoing flexibility

Off peak Return: £28.90
Flexible in dates, but keeps you out of rush hour

Off peak Day Return: £20.00
Just a little more than a single- least flexibility

It does get silly though- at weekends, there's a Super Off Peak Day Return for £16.

As to the situation in the OPs post- is there a cut off, either in fares or distance, where Return (as opposed to Day Return) tickets are not available, or does it vary between operators/lines? Searching from Cambridge, there's no Return fare to Bishops Stortford, but there is an Off Peak Return (costing more than an Anytime Day Return) to Sawbridgeworth. Fully flexible Anytime Returns only appear to be available to London Terminals on this line.

Anytime Day R

 

[Greenback]

Do CDs fares still exist? Don't seem to be any local to me- so Standard Off peak Return (CDR) is slightly more expensive than a single.

I'm not up to date with the current names. I imagine the former CDS's are now off peak singles or soemthing similar!

 

[route101]

Up in Scotland the biggest gripe is that there is no Anytime Return between Edinburgh and Glasgow !

 

[ashworth]

Single fare only 90% of the return fare that's cheap!!!!

Earlier this summer I needed to make a return trip from Nottingham to Blackpool North. It was possible to get a cheap AP ticket for the outward journey at only £9 and so I looked at the possibility of buying that and then getting a single for the return journey. I knew that the single may would be considerably more than half the return fare, but I did expect to be able to save a few pounds.

How wrong:
The only single available from Blackpool to Nottingham was an Anytime Single at £49 where the cheapest return, an Off Peak Return, was only £1 more at £50. As you can guess I didn't get the AP Single and just purchased a return on the day of travel instead.

Why is a single only £1 less than a return on journeys of that sort of distance and price?

 

[hughesfowler]

Could be worse, use the Metrolink in Manchester, off pkday return, Radcliffe to Manchester £3.50, and a return is ...............£3.50 !!!!:-x

 

[yorkie]

Up in Scotland the biggest gripe is that there is no Anytime Return between Edinburgh and Glasgow !

The closest I can find is:-
Glasgow Cen/Qst - Musselburgh SOR £22.90
or, Edinburgh - Dalmuir SOR £25.30 SVR £21.40 (SVR is valid any train after 0915, no evening restriction)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not up to date with the current names. I imagine the former CDS's are now off peak singles or soemthing similar!

CDS is Off Peak Day Single.
SVS is Off Peak Single
SVH is Off Peak Single

(Having 2 tickets called the same name, one at twice the price of the other, is a result of our new "simple" ticket names that let you buy "with confidence" )

 

[Scotty]

Could be worse, use the Metrolink in Manchester, off pkday return, Radcliffe to Manchester £3.50, and a return is ...............£3.50 !!!!:-x

The football specials to MUFC Halt are the same for single and return, too.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Earlier this summer I needed to make a return trip from Nottingham to Blackpool North. It was possible to get a cheap AP ticket for the outward journey at only £9 and so I looked at the possibility of buying that and then getting a single for the return journey. I knew that the single may would be considerably more than half the return fare, but I did expect to be able to save a few pounds.

How wrong:
The only single available from Blackpool to Nottingham was an Anytime Single at £49 where the cheapest return, an Off Peak Return, was only £1 more at £50. As you can guess I didn't get the AP Single and just purchased a return on the day of travel instead.

Why is a single only £1 less than a return on journeys of that sort of distance and price?

Flows priced my East Midlands Trains seem to have more anomalies than average in my experience, e.g. anytime day returns (SDR) that cost more than "off-peak" returns (SVR) with a restriction code allowing use on any train, that kind of thing.

For Blackpool North to Nottingham if you'd split tickets at Stockport you could have taken advantage of a CDS price for each half of the journey:
BPN-SPT CDS £14.80
SPT-NOT CDS £15.30
Adding the £9 advance single brings the total to £39.10 - nearly an £11 saving on the £50 BPN-NOT SVR...

Funnily enough though there'd be no point in splitting the SVR ticket at Stockport - the price of the two added together is exactly the same (£50) as the through SVR from NOT-BPN! You'd only be taking advantage of the fact that CDR/CDS fares generally are only available for journeys under a certain distance.

 

[ashworth]

Thanks for that. I'd completely forgotten about splitting and Cheap Day Singles. I regulary split for return journeys but it never even entered my head to consider splitting for a single journey.

What I usually do for this journey, as there often aren't many AP tickets available, if I'm not in a hurry I get a Hucknall to Sheffield OPR @ £12.40 (which is valid via Nottingham) and a Anytime return from Sheffield to Blackpool via Leeds @ £29.40 for a total of £41.80.

 

[AlexS]

If it makes you feel better, the latest bunch of robbing cowboys (Cross Country I believe) will charge you more for a single than a return where I am because they don't do an off peak single.

 

[yorkie]

I get a Hucknall to Sheffield OPR @ £12.40

Actually that's a SVR. There isn't an OPR (Super Off Peak) for this flow. (Simple - according to ATOC)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Flows priced my East Midlands Trains seem to have more anomalies than average in my experience, e.g. anytime day returns (SDR) that cost more than "off-peak" returns (SVR) with a restriction code allowing use on any train, that kind of thing.

I thought all Off Peak Returns (SVRs) priced by East Midland Trains were valid after 0900 for non-London journeys? They were, of course, all valid at any time before Midland Mainline introduced huge fare rises through the back door by restricting these tickets. If you can find some that are valid at any time, I'd be interested to know about them!

 

[OwlMan]

If it makes you feel better, the latest bunch of robbing cowboys (Cross Country I believe) will charge you more for a single than a return where I am because they don't do an off peak single.

Buy a return then

Peter

 

[D6975]

Northern Rail have a promotion where two people travelling together get the second day return ticket at half price.
In some cases this means that 2x day returns is cheaper than 2x singles.
The on-train conductors and revenue protection staff seem pretty well clued up on it and check the fares when pairs of people ask for singles, issuing whichever is the cheaper option.

 

[RJ]

There is a reason for everything. The (sometimes) marginal extra cost of a xxR on an xxS is partially to do with administration.

 

[tony_mac]

I am sure there are plenty of these,
but a Victoria to Eastbourne off-peak single is £10 more expensive than the return half of an Eastbourne to Victoria Super off-peak day return.