769s for Buxton?

[py_megapixel]

As I understand it, Transport for Wales' fleet of nine 769s is part of a "temporary fleet" which will be entirely displaced by FLIRTs in the near future.

If this is the case, I think a logical next step for them would be the Buxton line. It seems the perfect candidate for 769s;

• It's currently operated with pairs of 150s - which, from a passenger perspective, a 319 is near-identical to.
• A third of its distance is already electrified, including a section into a major city where air quality is a major concern (Manchester to Hazel Grove already has wires)
• 319s are already cleared as far as Hazel Grove (at least I hope they are, as before the 331s came in, they were regularly allocated to services down there!) so presumably clearing them further down the line wouldn't be too much of an issue as they share the bodyshell with a 150 anyway?
• Service taking approx 1 hour with approximately 20 minute turnaround at one end and 10 mins at the other (which seems to be the pattern currently, non-covid) means that a full circuit takes about 1hr 30, which requires 3 diagrams for each direction (6 in total), so TfW's 9 units should comfortably be able to cover it
• Those extra displaced 150s would probably be welcome elsewhere on the Northern network to increase capacity/reliability

 

[Ash Bridge]

Not sure if you've taken the gradients on the Buxton line into consideration here?

 

[py_megapixel]

Not sure if you've taken the gradients on the Buxton line into consideration here ?

That's a good point - the Sprinters feel like they're really struggling as they pull out of Whaley Bridge and Chapel towards Buxton...

Is there any real reason why 769s would cope any worse though? 319s on electric actually feel a little quicker off the mark than 150s do on diesel anyway.

 

[popeter45]

The TfW 769's could also work to potentially replace the cross country 170's to allow them to cascade to replace sprinters with other TOC's

 

[py_megapixel]

The TfW 769's could also work to potentially replace the cross country 170's to allow them to cascade to replace sprinters with other TOC's

The 769s are a massive step down in quality from 170s, and for reasons which have been discussed on the forum many times before, the 170s are unsuitable as Sprinter replacements. And with only 9 of them going spare, unless they go to a TOC that already has 769s, someone is going to end up with an undesirable micro-fleet.

 

[Ash Bridge]

That's a good point - the Sprinters feel like they're really struggling as they pull out of Whaley Bridge and Chapel towards Buxton...

Is there any real reason why 769s would cope any worse though? 319s on electric actually feel a little quicker off the mark than 150s do on diesel anyway.

That was the thinking behind my post, and do not a pair of 150s have couple of hundred more horsepower over the 769 and perhaps tip the scales slightly less too?

 

[py_megapixel]

That was the thinking behind my post, and do not a pair of 150s have couple of hundred more horsepower over the 769 and perhaps tip the scales slightly less too?

Indeed, all questions which I unfortunately don't know the answer to...

 

[Domh245]

Not sure if you've taken the gradients on the Buxton line into consideration here?

Porterbrook did! Piccadilly - Buxton was the original simulated case to prove the concept as mentioned in this article

To prove the concept would work, Porterbrook has teamed up with Wabtec/Brush Traction to develop a feasibility study, including detailed modelling work.

Simpson wanted Brush to really test the concept before any metal was cut, revealing: “I wanted to test it against the worst route I could imagine.” After speaking with Northern, she chose Manchester Piccadilly-Buxton: “It’s uphill all the way and has 12 stops.”

The ‘319’ Flex train performed admirably in modelling. It was able to complete eight return journeys per day to the current timetable, in effect performing like a four-car Class 15x formation.

The TfW 769's could also work to potentially replace the cross country 170's to allow them to cascade to replace sprinters with other TOC's

As @py_megapixel says, they're completely unsuitable to working the XC 170 routes from a quality perspective, but also in terms of performance I would think, as they're (at best) 150 replacements, and definitely not 170 replacements. If there was any reasonable stretches of under-wire running then there may have been a point where these could have been a 'quick win' to reduce emissions, but that there isn't really - 1 mile at most on either Leicester or Nottingham - Birmingham, an extra ~30 miles on the Cardiffs (assuming you repath them to run on the electrified slow lines from Kings Norton to Barnt Green), a few miles around Peterborough and the stretch from Ely - Stanstead

 

[Ash Bridge]

Interesting, looks like I stand corrected then although it will still be interesting to see just how they will actually perform in real life on this rather challenging route?

 

[D365]

The TfW 769's could also work to potentially replace the cross country 170's to allow them to cascade to replace sprinters with other TOC's

The 769s are nowhere near inter-regional standard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 769s are nowhere near inter-regional standard.

Depends how you fit out the interior. While they are a bit old-fashioned looking, I'd take a unit with the 319/2 interior (2+2 airline seated with good legroom due to the omission of the side-facing seat from the 150/2 style layout) over say a 156 - more legroom for starters. I guess aircon would be too much for the engines?

However, back to the thread, they are indeed ideal for Northern routes that are part wired and part not, such as the Buxtons (indeed, Buxton is an absolute textbook example of a use for a regional/commuter bi-mode), provided they can keep time - and it seems they can, according to Porterbrook, anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2020 ==

The 769s are a massive step down in quality from 170s, and for reasons which have been discussed on the forum many times before, the 170s are unsuitable as Sprinter replacements. And with only 9 of them going spare, unless they go to a TOC that already has 769s, someone is going to end up with an undesirable micro-fleet.

Which, unless they don't go ahead with them for any reason, basically means Northern. As they are basically identical to a double 150 but with modern, more efficient and lower-emission engines, just swapping them in for double 150s, ideally on routes which are part-wired, is a perfect use for them.

 

[Whistler40145]

Had Class 142s been cleared from Stockport to Buxton, I could imagine would've struggled with the gradients and imagine Class 769s would struggle too

 

[Bletchleyite]

Had Class 142s been cleared from Stockport to Buxton, I could imagine would've struggled with the gradients

Never seen a 142 down there, I don't think they are allowed.

and imagine Class 769s would struggle too

Porterbrook seem to think otherwise.

 

[Whistler40145]

Never seen a 142 down there, I don't think they are allowed.



Porterbrook seem to think otherwise.

We'll see if they on any future test runs

 

[HST43257]

Unless they can fit 331s with batteries, I’d like to see 769s take over the Manchester to Windermere and Barrow services.

 

[anthony263]

Been suggested in the January 2021 edition of modern railways that tfw looking to keep the 769s now after 2023 with a Cardiff to Bristol tm service suggested

 

[py_megapixel]

Unless they can fit 331s with batteries, I’d like to see 769s take over the Manchester to Windermere and Barrow services.

This has been suggested before, and I think was even considered by Northern at one point. To me it makes a lot of sense, but the main obstacle with it was that the stock used on that route has to meet the "Northern Connect" specification which requires a variety of passenger amenities, some of which would be complicated to fit to a 769.

Of course now DfT are running the franchise, they might be allowed to just ignore that requirement, but it's probably more nuanced than that.

Been suggested in the January 2021 edition of modern railways that tfw looking to keep the 769s now after 2023 with a Cardiff to Bristol tm service suggested

Well even if they do, there's no shortage of 319s if Northern want more. Though that said, I'm not sure what the costs of doing the conversions are like.