New national restrictions in Wales

[duncanp]

Welsh lockdown brought forward to start at midnight tonight. Christmas relaxation limited to Christmas Day only.

So tough **** if you haven't done your Christmas shopping yet.

How is Herr Drakeford going to stop all his subjects from sneaking across the border in to Herefordshire and Shropshire for an illict pint or two?

Any bets on Queen Nicola (press conference at 5:25) going one better, just to be different, and forbidding families in Scotland mixing on Christmas Day as well?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Can we please stop rubbishing the politicians and (especially) the scientists?
What else do you expect them to do (and it's widely the same across Europe)?
As Martin Luther said: "Here I stand. I can do no other."
3000 new cases reported in Wales today (I know the figures for Wales are dodgy this week).

 

[DB]

Can we please stop rubbishing the politicians and (especially) the scientists?

Why?

They are taking arbitrary decisions which will heavily impact on many people, and doing it yet again by the abuse of emergency powers. It's quite remarkable that suddenly in just the UK a mutant strain out of the over a thousand mutant strains suddently becomes such a problem right at the last minute. It's almost as if they are scrabbling around trying to make it look like something unforeseen has happened as a justification for doing what Johnson specifically said they wouldn't do only a few days ago.

It's December. Who would not expect and have predicted that respiratory viruses would increase in the peak respiratory virus season?

 

[bramling]

Why?

They are taking arbitrary decisions which will heavily impact on many people, and doing it yet again by the abuse of emergency powers. It's quite remarkable that suddenly in just the UK a mutant strain out of the over a thousand mutant strains suddently becomes such a problem right at the last minute. It's almost as if they are scrabbling around trying to make it look like something unforeseen has happened as a justification for doing what Johnson specifically said they wouldn't do only a few days ago.

It's December. Who would not expect and have predicted that respiratory viruses would increase in the peak respiratory virus season?

To be fair I’m not so fussed about the scientists - their role is to give their opinions. It’s the politicians’ role to interpret those opinions, and it’s abundantly clear they don’t have the nouns to do that.

If there’s one lesson that needs to be learned from this whole business, it’s that we need to stop recruiting politicians of low intellect driven by personal ambition - i.e. Boris Johnson. Even Theresa May has demonstrated critical thinking, a capability this useless bumbling fool simply doesn’t have. Watching him try and bumble his way through this, seeing his get-out-of-stupidity-free-card of “following the scientists” crumble around him, is utterly painful to watch. Being able to spell Pinocchio just doesn’t equip such people to govern a country competently - I wish Stanley was reading some of what is posted here.

Sorry for the rant but I’m proper hacked off!

 

[island]

If there’s one lesson that needs to be learned from this whole business, it’s that we need to stop recruiting politicians of low intellect driven by personal ambition - i.e. Boris Johnson. Even Theresa May has demonstrated critical thinking, a capability this useless bumbling fool simply doesn’t. Watching him try and bumble his way through this, seeing his get-out-of-stupidity-free-card of “following the scientists” crumble around him, is utterly painful to watch.

I wager a politician of high intellect would realise that the amount one is paid for the job does not in the least compensate for its burdens.

 

[bramling]

I wager a politician of high intellect would realise that the amount one is paid for the job does not in the least compensate for its burdens.

A point well made. Also, to be fair being on the receiving end of what at times can be an immature media circus probably puts people off too. The media can surely do better than Beth Rigby and Robert Peston, surely?

 

[DB]

To be fair I’m not so fussed about the scientists - their role is to give their opinions. It’s the politicians’ role to interpret those opinions, and it’s abundantly clear they don’t have the nouns to do that.

Yes, but that's what they should be doing - giving advice behind the scenes along with other specialists such as economists. It's not really on for them to be wheeled out in many press conferences presenting just their doom and gloom, with nothing to counterbalance it in the way of considering economic, social and other health effects.

It was obviously originally intended to try to convince the public that the situation was in safe hands, but it's now having the opposite effect on many and they are becoming objects of contempt.

 

[bramling]

Yes, but that's what they should be doing - giving advice behind the scenes along with other specialists such as economists. It's not really on for them to be wheeled out in many press conferences presenting just their doom and gloom, with nothing to counterbalance it in the way of considering economic, social and other health effects.

It was obviously originally intended to try to convince the public that the situation was in safe hands, but it's now having the opposite effect on many and they are becoming objects of contempt.

I agree, but who is giving them this platform?

 

[kristiang85]

Can we please stop rubbishing the politicians and (especially) the scientists?
What else do you expect them to do (and it's widely the same across Europe)?

Just because it's what everyone else is doing, doesn't mean its the right thing.

My personal belief is that in the democracies of Western Europe, they all know they've gone a bit too far, but won't admit it due to the fact their parties will be culpable of wilfully destroying the economy for over a decade and the subsequent effects of that, that they will out of office for generations. So by 'following the herd', so to speak, in locking down and waiting for the vaccine, they don't look like they are doing too much wrong.

If we only PCR tested symptomatic people, and double tested them to ensure proper positives, and only announced death statistics as those most likely to have died as a result of COVID (i.e. wouldn't have died without it), this would look so much different. But it is the politicians and scientists who are controlling the narrative and stoking the fear.

 

[Richard Scott]

Can we please stop rubbishing the politicians and (especially) the scientists?
What else do you expect them to do (and it's widely the same across Europe)?
As Martin Luther said: "Here I stand. I can do no other."
3000 new cases reported in Wales today (I know the figures for Wales are dodgy this week).

3000 out of 3 million, hardly big numbers, when they do something worthwhile rather than carry on with life wrecking policies then will stop rubbishing them, until then no.

 

[Dave91131]

A question on behalf of a friend if I may, hopefully members with a clearer understanding of the ever changing rules will be able to assist:

Can my friend who lives in Carlisle (presently in tier 2 as far as I can make out) legitimately travel to Wales (specifically Wrexham) on either Tues 22nd or Weds 23rd December to see her children (both under 10)?

Any assistance welcomed, with relevant law / legislation cited if possible for avoidance of doubt please.

Many thanks.

 

[Llanigraham]

A question on behalf of a friend if I may, hopefully members with a clearer understanding of the ever changing rules will be able to assist:

Can my friend who lives in Carlisle (presently in tier 2 as far as I can make out) legitimately travel to Wales (specifically Wrexham) on either Tues 22nd or Weds 23rd December to see her children (both under 10)?

Any assistance welcomed, with relevant law / legislation cited if possible for avoidance of doubt please.

Many thanks.

My reading of the new Rules is no she can't, however I fully expect some members here to disagree with that. (vehemently!)

 

[island]

A question on behalf of a friend if I may, hopefully members with a clearer understanding of the ever changing rules will be able to assist:

Can my friend who lives in Carlisle (presently in tier 2 as far as I can make out) legitimately travel to Wales (specifically Wrexham) on either Tues 22nd or Weds 23rd December to see her children (both under 10)?

Any assistance welcomed, with relevant law / legislation cited if possible for avoidance of doubt please.

Many thanks.

The new Welsh legislation has not been published yet, or if it has, I cannot find it. Therefore I cannot give you an assured answer.

If it follows the same terms as the most recent iterations of legislation, an exemption applies as respects entering Wales “in relation to children who do not live in the same household as their parents, or one of their parents, continuing existing arrangements for access to, and contact between, parents and children”.

Perhaps that may help.

 

[Dai Corner]

The new Welsh legislation has not been published yet, or if it has, I cannot find it. Therefore I cannot give you an assured answer.

If it follows the same terms as the most recent iterations of legislation, an exemption applies as respects entering Wales “in relation to children who do not live in the same household as their parents, or one of their parents, continuing existing arrangements for access to, and contact between, parents and children”.

Perhaps that may help.

It has now.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2020/1610/pdfs/wsi_20201610_en.pdf

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

My reading of the new Rules is no she can't, however I fully expect some members here to disagree with that. (vehemently!)

There's this posted on the BBC web site (about Welsh restrictions, red panel):
"Throughout alert level 4, a single person household will be able to join with one other household".
Covid: New coronavirus variant 'in every part of Wales' - BBC News

So if she lives on her own I think she can travel to Wales.
Otherwise not.
I think this was intended to address the "lone grandparent" problem.

 

[Butts]

Is Cardiff Airport still open and what's the rule on foreign travel in Wales ?

 

[island]

Is Cardiff Airport still open and what's the rule on foreign travel in Wales ?

Cardiff Airport is still operating at the moment, though the majority of flights appear to be cancelled.

Foreign travel is not explicitly prohibited from Wales, but a Welsh resident seeking to travel abroad is likely to be in breach of the requirement not to leave home without reasonable excuse (Schedule 4 to the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) Regulations 2020, part 1 paragraph 1 (1)).

 

[Bantamzen]

Can we please stop rubbishing the politicians and (especially) the scientists?
What else do you expect them to do (and it's widely the same across Europe)?
As Martin Luther said: "Here I stand. I can do no other."
3000 new cases reported in Wales today (I know the figures for Wales are dodgy this week).

To put it bluntly, no. Why shouldn't we rubbish the people that are wreaking up our lives whilst completely failing do do what they claim the restrictions will do, i.e. get rid of the virus. If they don't like the heat, they are welcome to leave the kitchen.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

To put it bluntly, no. Why shouldn't we rubbish the people that are wreaking up our lives whilst completely failing do do what they claim the restrictions will do, i.e. get rid of the virus. If they don't like the heat, they are welcome to leave the kitchen.

Because there's no balance to it, and the situation is very complex and changing unpredictably with time.
Not all politicians are charlatans and not all scientists are mad.
They are either democratically elected or professionally appointed, with layers of civil service and academic advice behind them (which won't change).
By all means disagree with policies and actions, but they are the ones currently in charge (we put them there).
They will also not go away until the next election which is next year for Wales (but the same faces will just rotate), or 2024 for the wider UK.
Personalising everything to Mark Drakeford's supposed shortcomings is pointless.
He's facing a public health crisis in Wales, especially in the south.

 

[DB]

Because there's no balance to it, and the situation is very complex and changing unpredictably with time.
Not all politicians are charlatans and not all scientists are mad.
They are either democratically elected or professionally appointed, with layers of civil service and academic advice behind them (which won't change).
By all means disagree with policies and actions, but they are the ones currently in charge (we put them there).
They will also not go away until the next election which is next year for Wales (but the same faces will just rotate), or 2024 for the wider UK.
Personalising everything to Mark Drakeford's supposed shortcomings is pointless.
He's facing a public health crisis in Wales, especially in the south.

None of which alters the fact that the handling of this has been utterly shambolic. The situation is actually not changing "unpredictably" to any great extent - it was entirely predictable that numbers would spike in the middle of winter. So they use this new strain as the exuse - but that's been known about since September, and it's remarkably convenient that it only becomes a really urgent issue soon after Parliament is no longer sitting.

What is also completely unforgiveable is the complete loss of perspective (from the government, and even more so from its scientific advisors) - if it's not covid, it doesn't matter.

 

[Dai Corner]

None of which alters the fact that the handling of this has been utterly shambolic. The situation is actually not changing "unpredictably" to any great extent - it was entirely predictable that numbers would spike in the middle of winter. So they use this new strain as the exuse - but that's been known about since September, and it's remarkably convenient that it only becomes a really urgent issue soon after Parliament is no longer sitting.

What is also completely unforgiveable is the complete loss of perspective (from the government, and even more so from its scientific advisors) - if it's not covid, it doesn't matter.

Also the lack of preparation for the entirely predictable winter spike and misdirection of resources by building temporary hospitals which would never be used because they couldn't be staffed, for example.

 

[DB]

Also the lack of preparation for the entirely predictable winter spike and misdirection of resources by building temporary hospitals which would never be used because they couldn't be staffed, for example.

Indeed. They could have spent the summer taking on extra new nurses and doing initial training in the less demanding tasks so that they could free up more experienced nurses for the more demanding work, but they didn't. They could have worked out a system of staff living-in at care homes for several weeks at a time (paid well, of course), but they didn't. It's not as if lack of money was an issue - they've been prepared to waste it on all sorts of other trivial and pointless things.

 

[Richard Scott]

Personalising everything to Mark Drakeford's supposed shortcomings is pointless.
He's facing a public health crisis in Wales, especially in the south.

Well he is the figurehead and the one dishing out the same useless restrictions that have failed to work so far and putting many people's livelihoods, education and mental wellbeing in jeopardy.
Like someone else said, if they don't like it they can resign. If you go into politics you may end up having to deal with a situation like this.

 

[Dai Corner]

Indeed. They could have spent the summer taking on extra new nurses and doing initial training in the less demanding tasks so that they could free up more experienced nurses for the more demanding work, but they didn't. They could have worked out a system of staff living-in at care homes for several weeks at a time (paid well, of course), but they didn't. It's not as if lack of money was an issue - they've been prepared to waste it on all sorts of other trivial and pointless things.

There are plenty of potential recruits who've lost their jobs in the retail and hospitality industries and would have the necessary interpersonal skills to make good healthcare workers.

 

[Carlisle]

misdirection of resources by building temporary hospitals which would never be used because they couldn't be staffed, for example.

Indeed, it’s now becoming blatantly obvious the Nightingales were just a govt/NHS PR exercise

 

[_toommm_]

Interestingly, TfW are advising that it’s essential travel only, not only in Wales, but in England. This is from their JourneyCheck page:

Keep Wales Safe
New LEVEL 4 National Lockdown coronavirus rules apply across Wales.
Start - 00:01 on 20 December 2020
Duration - at least 3 weeks
Transport for Wales Rail train services, across the whole TfWR network (including those routes within England), can only be used for essential reasons!

 

[Dai Corner]

Interestingly, TfW are advising that it’s essential travel only, not only in Wales, but in England. This is from their JourneyCheck page:

Even between, say, Hereford and Leominster, both in Tier 1? Hmmm. I wonder if they ran that past the DfT?

 

[DB]

Even between, say, Hereford and Leominster, both in Tier 1? Hmmm. I wonder if they ran that past the DfT?

Do they have any authority to do that?

 

[brad465]

The Covid ZOE study thinks parts of South Wales are rife with it, to the point that in Bridgend their estimating nearly 4% of the population have symptomatic Covid there right now (39139 cpm), with 2-4% widely in other areas including Cardiff and Newport. At this rate it can't be long before it burns out if there's pre-existing immunity from earlier this year?

 

[island]

Do they have any authority to do that?

I suppose going back to brass tacks they’re a private company and can choose whom to offer or not offer their services to, but that doesn’t map to practicality or reality.