New 4-tier system for England

[bramling]

To be honest, I think the government just don't care about avoiding uncertainty any more. They're just arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic, and there's nothing else they can do. Their actions have decimated the economy and ruined lives, and even if they suddenly started to communicate effectively it's much too late to make any difference.

This is one of the worst aspects of this. I'm sure most people can forgive an element of indifference as it's clearly a novel and changing situation. However what we've seen goes *far* beyond that.

It's quite clear individuals within the government are incapable of interpreting what advice they are receiving from scientists. They have tried to be led by them rather than guided, because they don't have the competence to interpret and form their own conclusions, and be able to justify their decisions.

Any subsequent post-mortem inquiry is going to be painful viewing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2020 ==

If Boris introduces and English lockdown on 28th December, 26 days after the end of a 30 day lockdown he will be toast. He will be guaranteeing a fourth lockdown and will take the blame for it. He stalled on the second lockdown for 6 weeks, I suspect he will do the same again. Tier 4 seems to be the best way to so that.

Boris is already toast. All he cares about is ploughing through the immediate situation like the bull-in-china-shop that he is. I tend to agree that it will be a lockdown by another means though, blanket tier 3 or 4 probably being that.

I just can't see he's going to be the outlier out of the four nations if she up there goes ahead with it.

 

[Class 33]

I reckon that another lockdown is pretty much certain. Boris is only saying he wants to avoid it so that he can blame us peasants when he imposes one. We're back in the late October situation again. I reckon this is the new normal - a cycle of lockdown/'freedom'/lockdown interspersed with governmental chaos and them blaming us for trying to maintain some aspects of what it means to be a human.

Wouldn't be atall surprised if yet another darn full national lockdown is announced soon. And wouldn't be atall surprised if it's announced on Christmas Day of all days, with an "Address to the nation" from Johnson. He could well say something like "Well we hope you've had a lovely Christmas Day. However, the number of Coronavirus cases are soaring, the R rate has gone above 1, hospitals are struggling, blah blah blah..... Therefore to protect the NHS and save lives we need to have another full national lockdown commencing on the 28th of December.". Wouldn't be atall surprised.

What annoys me is how the government keeps going on about protecting the NHS when announcing these lockdowns and saying about why all these other restrictions are needed. What about the severe economic damage all these lockdowns, Tiered restrictions, social distancing restrictions, are having on many thousands of businesses across the country? What about the millions of people whose livelihoods are suffering or ruined because of all this? What about the severe effect this is having on millions of people's mental health?(A number of whom have committed suicide because they just can't take all this any longer). They need to balance things up in how to deal with this, not just thinking about protecting the NHS!

A week or so ago in the news it was mentioned that "Coronavirus restrictions to be progressively eased in the new year.". Though it didn't give details of when exactly in the new year the restrictions would be progessively eased. That said Johnson and others(even Hancock who is usually very pro-restrictions) in the cabinet have said that life should be back to normal by Easter/after Easter. I was beginning to feel cautiously optimistic that it's not too far off now that life can get back to normal and we can move on from this disastrous 12 month period. But now things are going the other way, what with talk of the government considering introducing a new tougher Tier 4 restrictions, that a third national lockdown could well be necessary, etc. This is all just absolutely insane.

We've got these vaccines that are starting to be rolled out now, and once a fair number of the most vulnerable people have been vaccinated, we really need to start easing all these lockdowns and restrictions, NOT increasing them!

If this does drag on beyond April with still no definite end in sight, I really think I just won't be able to take all this any longer, and call it a day with my life. Millions of other people in England could well be feeling the same. This is absolutely mental torture all this dragging on all these months.

 

[joncombe]

Wouldn't be atall surprised if yet another darn full national lockdown is announced soon. And wouldn't be atall surprised if it's announced on Christmas Day of all days, with an "Address to the nation" from Johnson.

Boris working on Christmas day? I doubt it!

 

[bramling]

Wouldn't be atall surprised if yet another darn full national lockdown is announced soon. And wouldn't be atall surprised if it's announced on Christmas Day of all days, with an "Address to the nation" from Johnson. He could well say something like "Well we hope you've had a lovely Christmas Day. However, the number of Coronavirus cases are soaring, the R rate has gone above 1, hospitals are struggling, blah blah blah..... Therefore to protect the NHS and save lives we need to have another full national lockdown commencing on the 28th of December.". Wouldn't be atall surprised.

What annoys me is how the government keeps going on about protecting the NHS when announcing these lockdowns and saying about why all these other restrictions are needed. What about the severe economic damage all these lockdowns, Tiered restrictions, social distancing restrictions, are having on many thousands of businesses across the country? What about the millions of people whose livelihoods are suffering or ruined because of all this? What about the severe effect this is having on millions of people's mental health?(A number of whom have committed suicide because they just can't take all this any longer). They need to balance things up in how to deal with this, not just thinking about protecting the NHS!

A week or so ago in the news it was mentioned that "Coronavirus restrictions to be progressively eased in the new year.". Though it didn't give details of when exactly in the new year the restrictions would be progessively eased. That said Johnson and others(even Hancock who is usually very pro-restrictions) in the cabinet have said that life should be back to normal by Easter/after Easter. I was beginning to feel cautiously optimistic that it's not too far off now that life can get back to normal and we can move on from this disastrous 12 month period. But now things are going the other way, what with talk of the government considering introducing a new tougher Tier 4 restrictions, that a third national lockdown could well be necessary, etc. This is all just absolutely insane.

We've got these vaccines that are starting to be rolled out now, and once a fair number of the most vulnerable people have been vaccinated, we really need to start easing all these lockdowns and restrictions, NOT increasing them!

If this does drag on beyond April with still no definite end in sight, I really think I just won't be able to take all this any longer, and call it a day with my life. Millions of other people in England could well be feeling the same. This is absolutely mental torture all this dragging on all these months.

The reason why they always use the "save the NHS" line is because it's been shown to have an emotional resonation with (some) people.

I guess what happens over the next two weeks will depend on what happens with Brexit. Funny how again the news has been wall-to-wall with tiers, and virtually nothing on Brexit. It's so convenient anyone might think that was intentional!

 

[Darandio]

Boris working on Christmas day? I doubt it!

It would be pre-recorded, he's pulled that one before.

 

[Crossover]

A week or so ago in the news it was mentioned that "Coronavirus restrictions to be progressively eased in the new year.". Though it didn't give details of when exactly in the new year

...nor what year!

 

[yorksrob]

It's localised though. Makes all the difference to politicians circumventing parliament.

The current fiasco should hopefully remind MP's that you can vote for tiers all you want - sooner or later you'll end up stuck in lockdown in all but name.

 

[Reliablebeam]

I awake each day in fear of what Hancock, SAGE and BoJo will come up with next. I think many of the media commentators getting a bit hysterical and calling for a new year lockdown have not factored in public compliance, which was pretty frayed round here in the November shutdown. I have a cynical theory about the Christmas 'easements' - the government may have reasoned that the public would disobey the restrictions in large numbers, with many realising, for the first time, that the Police have little ability to actually enforce most of the lockdown measures...

 

[rumoto]

I don't know if this goes here, but it seems that there may be a final manoeuvre by the Government related to Covid-related restrictions before Christmas:

Alarming new evidence on Coronavirus mutation could bring tougher restrictions

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ohnson-handed-alarming-new-evidence-virulent/

An emergency toughening of Covid restrictions could be announced as soon as Saturday after Boris Johnson was handed alarming new evidence of the virulence of a mutant strain of the virus.

The Prime Minister called an unscheduled meeting of senior ministers on Friday night to discuss how to contain the new variant, which has so far been largely confined to London and the South East.

Travel restrictions are among the measures under discussion, with one source suggesting the Government could even restrict travel between the South East and other parts of the country.

An alternative would be to ban commuters from travelling into London, after the mutant strain, which originated in Kent, spread rapidly to London and then the home counties.

Much of the South East was put into Tier 3 by the Government only on Thursday, but the new information about the transmissibility of the mutant strain was so worrying that ministers fear they may have to act immediately.

Government scientists at the Porton Down laboratory in Wiltshire have been conducting experiments on the new strain, and have confirmed ministers' fears about it being far more infectious than the original strain of the virus.

One source in the scientific community said there were "concerns in government" about the new strain after the evidence was presented to ministers on Friday afternoon.

"The evidence that the new strain of the virus more easily transmits from one person to another has hardened up," said the source.

The meeting of ministers was expected to continue late into the night, with Whitehall sources refusing to rule out a press conference on Saturday to announce additional restrictions.

Mr Johnson has been adamant that he will not change the law allowing up to three households to get together over Christmas, but has already advised families to keep their "bubbles" as small as possible.

 

[island]

If Boris introduces and English lockdown on 28th December, 26 days after the end of a 30 day lockdown he will be toast.

I rather doubt it.

 

[bramling]

I don't know if this goes here, but it seems that there may be a final manoeuvre by the Government related to Covid-related restrictions before Christmas:

If it’s as serious as they are claiming to make out, should they not be acting now?

 

[Richard Scott]

I see this new strain of the virus is far more infectious. So what, doesn't say if it's more dangerous, chances are it isn't. If it's spreading easily probably less likely to kill its host? More scaremongering and government stupidity.

 

[Envy123]

My mother commutes daily to London. Any travel bans are not going to go well for her.

I think the whole London centric economy and a lot of affordable housing for London being built way outside London - even as far as Newark - don’t help this spread and even makes it worse.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that SAGE ought to be sent on a six month sabbatical to South Georgia, to throw buckets of warm water at the iceburg.

 

[brad465]

I don't know if this goes here, but it seems that there may be a final manoeuvre by the Government related to Covid-related restrictions before Christmas:

I reckon they'll be using this story as well in such an argument:

Pressure on hospitals 'at a really dangerous point'

Nearly 90% of hospital beds in England are full as hospitals try to cope with the demands of Covid.

www.bbc.co.uk

Nearly 90% of hospital beds in England are full as hospitals try to cope with the demands of Covid in addition to normal winter pressures.

Ambulances queuing to offload patients, staff sickness and a lack of beds mean hospitals are "at a really dangerous point", say emergency doctors.

This could result in some trusts facing the decision to stop non-Covid work.

Rises in hospital admissions are particularly affecting areas in the south.

Pretty sure though hospitals struggle every winter due to improper/insufficient resourcing.

 

[ChrisC]

I found the BBC 6 O’clock News so depressing tonight. It used to get like this way back during April. Even last night when they had announced the changes in Tiers it wasn’t so bad. I wasn’t really expecting any of the Tier 3 areas in the North and Midlands to move down to Tier 2 and more areas in the South East moving up to Tier 3 wasn’t a surprise. There did, however, seem to be some hope for the New Year if levels of infection continued to fall especially in the North West and the East Midlands. Some of the news last night was still slightly positive. Then tonight all change and we are doomed. Everything is suddenly getting worse than it’s ever been and the East Midlands, where the infection levels have fallen rapidly, is now on track to be one of the worst areas. How has everything suddenly taken such a rapid turn for the worst in only 24 hours?

 

[philosopher]

I see this new strain of the virus is far more infectious. So what, doesn't say if it's more dangerous, chances are it isn't. If it's spreading easily probably less likely to kill its host? More scaremongering and government stupidity.

I have just had a look at the cases and deaths for Kent from the UK Covid dashboard, where this strain seemed to first appear. In Kent the number of cases started rising exactly a month ago, however the deaths for the past three weeks have not gone up, in fact they appear to dipped slightly in the last week.

This to me would indicate that this new strain is less dangerous.

 

[BJames]

I reckon they'll be using this story as well in such an argument:

Pressure on hospitals 'at a really dangerous point'

Nearly 90% of hospital beds in England are full as hospitals try to cope with the demands of Covid.

www.bbc.co.uk

Pretty sure though hospitals struggle every winter due to improper/insufficient resourcing.

They do indeed. Been a problem for years, and many hospitals have gone onto alert due to low capacity before now.

 

[Class 33]

I awake each day in fear of what Hancock, SAGE and BoJo will come up with next. I think many of the media commentators getting a bit hysterical and calling for a new year lockdown have not factored in public compliance, which was pretty frayed round here in the November shutdown. I have a cynical theory about the Christmas 'easements' - the government may have reasoned that the public would disobey the restrictions in large numbers, with many realising, for the first time, that the Police have little ability to actually enforce most of the lockdown measures...

Some people take it really badly what the likes of those lot say or come up with. I read on another forum that one of the forum members mentioned that they knew someone who committed suicide when they read of the leak on 30th October that England would be going into lockdown yet again. I'm sure there could well have been a number of other people who did the same. This is the effect it can on have on some people. All these restrictions dragging on and on with no definite end in sight and going in and out lockdowns, is absolute mental torture for some of us. But of course, it seems the government just don't care about this do they. All they're worried about is the NHS.

Hancock was unusually very optimistic of life returning to normal by "After Easter" and damning of these restrictions the other week. As he made comments such as "Everyone's going to have a fantastic summer, doing what they all enjoy doing again." and "We hope we can get rid of these blasted restrictions very soon". But I expect that will be short lived and he'll be back to his old self again soon.

The media are really hyping up the fact that there could be yet another full national lockdown, what with them all consistently asking cabinet members "So, will there be another national lockdown?". And when this sort of thing happens from the press and media, the government usually goes and gives in and goes and implement what the media keep pleading them to do. Shame on them.

 

[trebor79]

I awake each day in fear of what Hancock, SAGE and BoJo will come up with next. I think many of the media commentators getting a bit hysterical and calling for a new year lockdown have not factored in public compliance, which was pretty frayed round here in the November shutdown. I have a cynical theory about the Christmas 'easements' - the government may have reasoned that the public would disobey the restrictions in large numbers, with many realising, for the first time, that the Police have little ability to actually enforce most of the lockdown measures...

I wouldn't count on it. Had a blazing row with my wife this evening. Son No. 1 has been off school since Monday because his music teacher who he saw for 30 mins last Tuesday tested positive.
10 days isolation from day of contact, ends today. Fine.
Wife says "we've got this postal test we never used, shall I swab him and send it off, just so we can be sure before we meet people at Christmas?"
Yeah sure, does no harm.

So I want to meet my parents for our weekly walk tomorrow. That's "completely responsible and will kill my mother because son might be infected."
But his isolation ends today, and we only got a test because we grabbed the system.
Doesn't matter, he might be infectious. What if he infects your parents and then they infect my parents at Christmas and my mum dies?
But he's had no symptoms, and the rules say there's no need to have had him tested and the isolation ends today.
Don't care, you just don't give a sh... about killing your mum or my mum.
No, I just realise he can't be infectious, and in any case we will be outside...

And so it blazed on. At one point she said she hopes to get the result tomorrow, but wants dibs on seeing her family rather than mine on Sunday!

Of course we've ended up at the sensible (though completely unacceptable for her) solution of seeing my folks tomorrow and hers on Sunday (pending test result). The usual not even thinly veiled divorce threats and what terrible horrible man I am to live with.

My wife, her family and a lot of her friends are all completely terrified. They all believe it's "idiots not following the rules" that are causing it to spread. Her aunt has cancelled going to see her own son and grandchildren because she's frightened of getting infected.
It's impossible to have a sensible conversation about it, and it's getting worse. Not only does she specially follow all the guidance to the letter, but now she's making up her own pseudo-science saying we need to get a negative test result before we stop isolating. I'm worried it'll come back as invalid as it was a couple of months old, although I suspect the prospect of cancelling Christmas awaiting another test result will bring her round, temporarily.
She's also decided her family shouldn't camp out here, because sleeping in separate bedrooms is much riskier than spending all day in the living room together. Suits me, they always stay to long for my liking anyway.

I think support for lockdowns and other such measures is a lot higher than we assume on this forum, unfortunately. Government has got intelligent and rational people into such a state of terror.

It's ruining my marriage and family life.

 

[nlogax]

Current discussions that seem to be emanating from Westminster via online and social media suggest that far more restrictive measures are coming to London and some more south eastern parts before Christmas, possibly as soon as the beginning of next week. Something equivalent to Scotland's tier 4.

If true then how any of this will be policed or enforced is a complete mystery.

 

[yorksrob]

Current discussions that seem to be emanating from Westminster via online and social media suggest that far more restrictive measures are coming to London and some more south eastern parts before Christmas, possibly as soon as the beginning of next week. Something equivalent to Scotland's tier 4.

If true then how any of this will be policed or enforced is a complete mystery.

Useless, clueless cretins.

 

[Reliablebeam]

Thanks for all your comments - the mental health toll of all of this is draining.

I note there are reports in the media that the new fangled strain can transmit even with the wearing of 'PPE'. If this is the case, it may be the harsh reality that the covid will burn through the population quicker than vaccine deployment can be achieved. Which is what some people hypothesised at the start of all this..!

 

[brad465]

Thanks for all your comments - the mental health toll of all of this is draining.

I note there are reports in the media that the new fangled strain can transmit even with the wearing of 'PPE'. If this is the case, it may be the harsh reality that the covid will burn through the population quicker than vaccine deployment can be achieved. Which is what some people hypothesised at the start of all this..!

Where are those reports? I'm not doubting you but they sound like important/interesting reads.

 

[Reliablebeam]

Where are those reports? I'm not doubting you but they sound like important/interesting reads.

I hate to have to reference the sun, but in there, and Harry Cole's twitter feed...

 

[bramling]

Some people take it really badly what the likes of those lot say or come up with. I read on another forum that one of the forum members mentioned that they knew someone who committed suicide when they read of the leak on 30th October that England would be going into lockdown yet again. I'm sure there could well have been a number of other people who did the same. This is the effect it can on have on some people. All these restrictions dragging on and on with no definite end in sight and going in and out lockdowns, is absolute mental torture for some of us. But of course, it seems the government just don't care about this do they. All they're worried about is the NHS.

Hancock was unusually very optimistic of life returning to normal by "After Easter" and damning of these restrictions the other week. As he made comments such as "Everyone's going to have a fantastic summer, doing what they all enjoy doing again." and "We hope we can get rid of these blasted restrictions very soon". But I expect that will be short lived and he'll be back to his old self again soon.

The media are really hyping up the fact that there could be yet another full national lockdown, what with them all consistently asking cabinet members "So, will there be another national lockdown?". And when this sort of thing happens from the press and media, the government usually goes and gives in and goes and implement what the media keep pleading them to do. Shame on them.

It’s obvious the government are going to give in, they have done so every single time thusfar so it’s a pretty safe bet it’s going to happen again.

I just wish they would announce something now, instead we will have three or four days of peeing in the wind then a sudden Boris statement.

It seems quite clear this whole Christmas is going to be a complete and utter shambles. What’s the betting he even cancels the Christmas easement at a point where many people are mid-journey?! That would be about true to form, to go with the yo-yo of shops and restaurants opening and closing every five minutes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2020 ==

Thanks for all your comments - the mental health toll of all of this is draining.

I note there are reports in the media that the new fangled strain can transmit even with the wearing of 'PPE'. If this is the case, it may be the harsh reality that the covid will burn through the population quicker than vaccine deployment can be achieved. Which is what some people hypothesised at the start of all this..!

That sounds more like a turn of phrase for saying masks don’t work, which we kind of knew anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2020 ==

Useless, clueless cretins.

Will there be an exemption in the travel restrictions for journeys to Barnard Castle?

Of course the more this current Covid pantomime plays out, the less Brexit is getting the limelight. How convenient, especially as there‘s issues on that front too.

 

[brad465]

I hate to have to reference the sun, but in there, and Harry Cole's twitter feed...

Ah right, I do hope it comes out more widely as it would put our entire strategy in doubt.

That sounds more like a turn of phrase for saying masks don’t work, which we kind of knew anyway.

Viruses are known for evolving/mutating rapidly, it wouldn't be surprising if our surge in PPE/mask wearing has meant that viral strains capable of beating such apparatus have won out through classic natural selection.

 

[Richard Scott]

Viruses are known for evolving/mutating rapidly, it wouldn't be surprising if our surge in PPE/mask wearing has meant that viral strains capable of beating such apparatus have won out through classic natural selection.

So quite possible masks have made things worse?

 

[bramling]

Ah right, I do hope it comes out more widely as it would put our entire strategy in doubt.


Viruses are known for evolving/mutating rapidly, it wouldn't be surprising if our surge in PPE/mask wearing has meant that viral strains capable of beating such apparatus have won out through classic natural selection.

It does seem hard to find even a hint of real-world experience which suggests masks are helping. I’m as convinced as ever that they may well be making things worse, hence why I have never worn one on trains, and as of the last couple of weeks am not doing so in shops either now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2020 ==

So quite possible masks have made things worse?

Just as the scientists said back in the spring.

 

[Reliablebeam]

That sounds more like a turn of phrase for saying masks don’t work, which we kind of knew anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2020 ==

That thought had occurred, glad I am not the only one thinking it!

Ah right, I do hope it comes out more widely as it would put our entire strategy in doubt.


Viruses are known for evolving/mutating rapidly, it wouldn't be surprising if our surge in PPE/mask wearing has meant that viral strains capable of beating such apparatus have won out through classic natural selection.

I agree and think we need big, big choices over the next few days to determine the future of our country.