All Electric Bus Town(s) England.

[Surreyman]

Been researching this online, latest info is that out of a total of 19 applications, 2 are now being considered, they are Coventry and Oxford.
£50M is available to fund up to 75% of the difference in price between a standard bus (presumably a Euro 6 Diesel) and an all Electric bus.
Not exactly sure what the average 'list price' is of say an ADL E20D MMC, would guess @ £100,000? can anyone confirm/correct me?
Again I am guessing that an equivalent BYD/ADL E20EV MMC must be at least £150,000? If my figures are correct then 75% of 50,000 = £37500, so the operator still has the capital expenditure of a Diesel bus + some.
Stagecoach Manchester quoted £6.9M for a fleet of 32 BYD/ADL E400EV, which works out at £215,625 per bus but this maybe included infrastructure i.e charging equipment?
The DfT is looking to convert 'whole town network(s)' so I assume 'out of town' routes are excluded. The applications are being made by the relevant local authorities rather than the bus companies although as they are paying for the new fleets they are obviously signed up.
In the case of Coventry, national express is the main operator, Oxford will be mainly Go Ahead in the form of Oxford bus (not sure how Thames Travel is involved) & presumably the Open Top tour operation And Stagecoach in Oxford.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Been researching this online, latest info is that out of a total of 19 applications, 2 are now being considered, they are Coventry and Oxford.
£50M is available to fund up to 75% of the difference in price between a standard bus (presumably a Euro 6 Diesel) and an all Electric bus.
Not exactly sure what the average 'list price' is of say an ADL E20D MMC, would guess @ £100,000? can anyone confirm/correct me?
Again I am guessing that an equivalent BYD/ADL E20EV MMC must be at least £150,000? If my figures are correct then 75% of 50,000 = £37500, so the operator still has the capital expenditure of a Diesel bus + some.
Stagecoach Manchester quoted £6.9M for a fleet of 32 BYD/ADL E400EV, which works out at £215,625 per bus but this maybe included infrastructure i.e charging equipment?
The DfT is looking to convert 'whole town network(s)' so I assume 'out of town' routes are excluded. The applications are being made by the relevant local authorities rather than the bus companies although as they are paying for the new fleets they are obviously signed up.
In the case of Coventry, national express is the main operator, Oxford will be mainly Go Ahead in the form of Oxford bus (not sure how Thames Travel is involved) & presumably the Open Top tour operation And Stagecoach in Oxford.

Depending on the spec etc, an e200mmc is anywhere from £160 to 190k

 

[Jordan Adam]

This all sounds all great etc, but the issue i'd still have is the fact the energy source isn't renewable. What's the point having an "electric bus town" when the energy source is through fossil fuels and to a lesser extent coal. More focus needs to be put on renewables and Hydrogen rather than battery electric. Short term in my opinion Hydrogen through renewable sources is best for city/town work while CBG (Bio-Gas) is best for longer distance stuff, too much focus has been put on Battery electric and Hybrids, neither of which solve or help solve the issue global pollution but rather local pollution. They basically take one issue and move it elsewhere.

 

[Surreyman]

This all sounds all great etc, but the issue i'd still have is the fact the energy source isn't renewable. What's the point having an "electric bus town" when the energy source is through fossil fuels and to a lesser extent coal. More focus needs to be put on renewables and Hydrogen rather than battery electric. Short term in my opinion Hydrogen through renewable sources is best for city/town work while CBG (Bio-Gas) is best for longer distance stuff, too much focus has been put on Battery electric and Hybrids, neither of which solve or help solve the issue global pollution but rather local pollution. They basically take one issue and move it elsewhere.

Broadly agree with your points, in a similar vain Rail electrification is pretty much 'pollution free' at point of use, you can of course change the generating source.
I have heard arguments against Hydrogen power on the grounds that producing hydrogen uses huge amounts of electricity often from renewable sources.
I don't pretend to have much knowledge or insight of energy/power technicalities, creating/funding an "Electric Bus Town" is clearly Political tokenism (Government Virtue signalling if you like) but I can see the value in a live experiment on a larger scale rather than just the odd route.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Broadly agree with your points, in a similar vain Rail electrification is pretty much 'pollution free' at point of use, you can of course change the generating source.
I have heard arguments against Hydrogen power on the grounds that producing hydrogen uses huge amounts of electricity often from renewable sources.
I don't pretend to have much knowledge or insight of energy/power technicalities, creating/funding an "Electric Bus Town" is clearly Political tokenism (Government Virtue signalling if you like) but I can see the value in a live experiment on a larger scale rather than just the odd route.

There is truth to that, i believe the process to create clean Hydrogen through electrolysis uses around 3 times the amount of electricity, however i do believe with further development that can be massively improved. There's still so much yet to be unlocked long term potential with Hydrogen, i'm not so sure the same can be said about batteries. Hydrogen vehicles also typically offer superior realistic range on par with conventional diesels.

I agree, to me it does seem more political tokenism rather than actually making a full blown long term effort. We need to be looking 30+ years down the line, not 5-10 years down the line, hence my problem with Hybrids and Battery Electrics.

 

[Bald Rick]

This all sounds all great etc, but the issue i'd still have is the fact the energy source isn't renewable. What's the point having an "electric bus town" when the energy source is through fossil fuels and to a lesser extent coal. More focus needs to be put on renewables and Hydrogen rather than battery electric. Short term in my opinion Hydrogen through renewable sources is best for city/town work while CBG (Bio-Gas) is best for longer distance stuff, too much focus has been put on Battery electric and Hybrids, neither of which solve or help solve the issue global pollution but rather local pollution. They basically take one issue and move it elsewhere.

Except the electricity is mostly renewable, or at least low carbon. For the past year nearly two thirds (64%) of U.K. electricity has been from renewables / Nuclear / imports (generally from France, which is mostly Nuclear / Hydro). The princely amount of 1.5% was generated by coal. The U.K. electricity supply has decarbonised more quickly than any other major nation worldwide in the past decade.

Meanwhile, you might like to ask how almost all hydrogen is produced in this country; a clue - it’s not through electrolysis, and it emits vast quantities of CO2.

 

[carlberry]

There is truth to that, i believe the process to create clean Hydrogen through electrolysis uses around 3 times the amount of electricity, however i do believe with further development that can be massively improved. There's still so much yet to be unlocked long term potential with Hydrogen, i'm not so sure the same can be said about batteries. Hydrogen vehicles also typically offer superior realistic range on par with conventional diesels.

I agree, to me it does seem more political tokenism rather than actually making a full blown long term effort. We need to be looking 30+ years down the line, not 5-10 years down the line, hence my problem with Hybrids and Battery Electrics.

The issue is what do we do now. Currently pure electric vehicles are a much more predictable technology, hydrogen has more complexity and uses more electricity to produce it (and therefore more fossil fuels). It may be wonderful to look 30 years forward however that's 2 vehicle lifetimes away.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2020 ==

Been researching this online, latest info is that out of a total of 19 applications, 2 are now being considered, they are Coventry and Oxford.
£50M is available to fund up to 75% of the difference in price between a standard bus (presumably a Euro 6 Diesel) and an all Electric bus.
Not exactly sure what the average 'list price' is of say an ADL E20D MMC, would guess @ £100,000? can anyone confirm/correct me?
Again I am guessing that an equivalent BYD/ADL E20EV MMC must be at least £150,000? If my figures are correct then 75% of 50,000 = £37500, so the operator still has the capital expenditure of a Diesel bus + some.
Stagecoach Manchester quoted £6.9M for a fleet of 32 BYD/ADL E400EV, which works out at £215,625 per bus but this maybe included infrastructure i.e charging equipment?
The DfT is looking to convert 'whole town network(s)' so I assume 'out of town' routes are excluded. The applications are being made by the relevant local authorities rather than the bus companies although as they are paying for the new fleets they are obviously signed up.
In the case of Coventry, national express is the main operator, Oxford will be mainly Go Ahead in the form of Oxford bus (not sure how Thames Travel is involved) & presumably the Open Top tour operation And Stagecoach in Oxford.

I'm surprised (but impressed) that they've ended up with two relatively large cities when it was announced as a scheme to convert a town network. National Express will obviously be able to absorb the displaced Coventry vehicles into the rest of the West Midlands fleet (and already has a small fleet of electrics) however the Oxford fleets are already fairly young because of the existing air quality regulations which will mean quite a lot of new kit to move.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The issue is what do we do now. Currently pure electric vehicles are a much more predictable technology, hydrogen has more complexity and uses more electricity to produce it (and therefore more fossil fuels). It may be wonderful to look 30 years forward however that's 2 vehicle lifetimes away.

Hence why more needs to be done with renewables and advancing Hydrogen particularly making the electrolysis process more efficient. I hate to constantly plug Aberdeen, but it is showing a clear example of how Hydrogen can be done and when it comes to vehicles is arguably the mean leader in the UK. All the Hydrogen here is produced using electricity from a offshore windfarm so there isn't any fossil fuels used and it is renewable from production right though to point of use.

It's pointless wasting money and over investing in a technology that isn't the future purely for the sake of vanity / a PR stunt. I have no issue with electric vehicles in the short term, but the "electric bus town" is nothing more than a gimmick coming from the government.

 

[Man of Kent]

Stagecoach Manchester quoted £6.9M for a fleet of 32 BYD/ADL E400EV, which works out at £215,625 per bus but this maybe included infrastructure i.e charging equipment?

£6.9m was the grant funding from the Ultra Low Emission Bus Scheme (ULEBS). Stagecoach put up £9.6m, so the total project was £16.5m (two press releases on the Stagecoach website give further details). Even allowing £1m for infrastructure, it is pushing £0.5m per bus, or close on double the price of a diesel. Hydrogen buses, from the very few examples available, are around 10% dearer than a battery double deck.

 

[Bald Rick]

£6.9m was the grant funding from the Ultra Low Emission Bus Scheme (ULEBS). Stagecoach put up £9.6m, so the total project was £16.5m (two press releases on the Stagecoach website give further details). Even allowing £1m for infrastructure, it is pushing £0.5m per bus, or close on double the price of a diesel. Hydrogen buses, from the very few examples available, are around 10% dearer than a battery double deck.

The infrastructure is likely to be more than that (especially if there is a need for boosted supplies), but yep, somewhere in the region £3-400k a pop. Of course the ‘fuel’ and maintenance savings quickly rack up too; easily £20k a year in fuel alone.

 

[Stan Drews]

Been researching this online, latest info is that out of a total of 19 applications, 2 are now being considered, they are Coventry and Oxford.
£50M is available to fund up to 75% of the difference in price between a standard bus (presumably a Euro 6 Diesel) and an all Electric bus.
Not exactly sure what the average 'list price' is of say an ADL E20D MMC, would guess @ £100,000? can anyone confirm/correct me?
Again I am guessing that an equivalent BYD/ADL E20EV MMC must be at least £150,000? If my figures are correct then 75% of 50,000 = £37500, so the operator still has the capital expenditure of a Diesel bus + some.
Stagecoach Manchester quoted £6.9M for a fleet of 32 BYD/ADL E400EV, which works out at £215,625 per bus but this maybe included infrastructure i.e charging equipment?
The DfT is looking to convert 'whole town network(s)' so I assume 'out of town' routes are excluded. The applications are being made by the relevant local authorities rather than the bus companies although as they are paying for the new fleets they are obviously signed up.
In the case of Coventry, national express is the main operator, Oxford will be mainly Go Ahead in the form of Oxford bus (not sure how Thames Travel is involved) & presumably the Open Top tour operation And Stagecoach in Oxford.

Your prices you suggest would only buy you around half the bus. You might just about get a standard Merc/Mellor Strata minibus for 100k, but nowt bigger!

 

[radamfi]

Hence why more needs to be done with renewables and advancing Hydrogen particularly making the electrolysis process more efficient. I hate to constantly plug Aberdeen, but it is showing a clear example of how Hydrogen can be done and when it comes to vehicles is arguably the mean leader in the UK. All the Hydrogen here is produced using electricity from a offshore windfarm so there isn't any fossil fuels used and it is renewable from production right though to point of use.

It's pointless wasting money and over investing in a technology that isn't the future purely for the sake of vanity / a PR stunt. I have no issue with electric vehicles in the short term, but the "electric bus town" is nothing more than a gimmick coming from the government.

Are there any cities worldwide which are pursuing hydrogen at the present time? As far as I can see, the whole world is working with batteries.

 

[carlberry]

All the Hydrogen here is produced using electricity from a offshore windfarm so there isn't any fossil fuels used and it is renewable from production right though to point of use.

Without somebody has built there own, private, interconnect between a wind farm and the hydrogen plant (and is willing to put the buses off the road if we have a bit of calm weather) the electricity is the standard mix that any electric bus town can use. Coventry or Oxford can just as easily claim to be powered by any wind farm in the UK if they wanted to however it's more realistic to work with the actual percentage. Hydrogen may become more efficient in future however, at present, it's dirtier per mile than electric.

 

[Volvodart]

Hydrogen was not suitable for the recent Scottish Government ultra low emission buses scheme for this reason.

 

[Ken H]

how will they charge all these buses on a cold February windless night when there is an anticyclone over the UK. Gas? coal?

 

[Bletchleyite]

how will they charge all these buses on a cold February windless night when there is an anticyclone over the UK. Gas? coal?

Nuclear.

 

[Ken H]

Nuclear.

nuclear is best at chucking out base load day in day out 24/7
you also need generation capacity to cope with peaks. having a nuke to cover just the 1600 - 1900 peak each day in winter would be very expensive. gas turbines can do that quite cheaply. so 30GW of nuclear and 20GW of gas turbine would do the job. If its windy, just dont use all the gas turbines. But then if its windy its not so cold so demand is less.

 

[Bletchleyite]

nuclear is best at chucking out base load day in day out 24/7

Indeed. Which is why its spare capacity will be available for charging stuff overnight; that's the question that was asked.

 

[Bald Rick]

how will they charge all these buses on a cold February windless night when there is an anticyclone over the UK. Gas? coal?

Nuclear, storage, biomass, hydro, and imports. Even on a ‘windless’ night there will be some wind power generated.

 

[Ken H]

Indeed. Which is why its spare capacity will be available for charging stuff overnight; that's the question that was asked.

so i go away for the day on business, drive over 200 miles. Get home with a nearly flat battery. Daughter need to go to ballet lesson. Cant charge car as it 17:30 peak demand time.

And in my present circumstances. live in a village in conservation area and national park. No parking outside house (Terrace, opens onto the street). Parking is 150 yards away and not allocated- its first come first served.
Do we really want to despoil pretty villages with charging points?
And would the distribution system cope with the extra load?

The electric car thing works, sort of, for people in cities who do a shortish commute. But out in the country its just not practicable.

And there are 3 buses a day here. last one from the nearby town is 14:15. and it doesnt go near the large supermarket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2020 ==

Nuclear, storage, biomass, hydro, and imports. Even on a ‘windless’ night there will be some wind power generated.

keep an eye on gridwatch and see just how much we rely on fossil fuels. Look at the historical data for earlier this month when we were relying on coal. Before we put more load on the grid we need to make sure there is enough secure generation and distribution capacity. Because right now we frequently come close to using all the generation capacity we have.

And all the time India and China are building more and more coal fired power stations........

 

[radamfi]

so i go away for the day on business, drive over 200 miles. Get home with a nearly flat battery. Daughter need to go to ballet lesson. Cant charge car as it 17:30 peak demand time.

And in my present circumstances. live in a village in conservation area and national park. No parking outside house (Terrace, opens onto the street). Parking is 150 yards away and not allocated- its first come first served.
Do we really want to despoil pretty villages with charging points?
And would the distribution system cope with the extra load?

The electric car thing works, sort of, for people in cities who do a shortish commute. But out in the country its just not practicable.

And there are 3 buses a day here. last one from the nearby town is 14:15. and it doesnt go near the large supermarket.

It seems to be OK to "despoil" your pretty village with car parking and roads, though.

Electric buses are now used widely on rural routes in the Netherlands.

The main reason for electric vehicles *at the moment* is to cut air pollution in urban areas. Carbon emission reduction is secondary and depends on how the electricity is generated.

 

[Bald Rick]

keep an eye on gridwatch and see just how much we rely on fossil fuels. Look at the historical data for earlier this month when we were relying on coal.

I do. We haven’t ‘relied’ on coal for several years. Even earlier this month when the coal stations were generating, it was never more than about 7% of total demand. All the coal stations will be off line within a few years. In the past year, fossil fuels as a whole have generated a little over a third of GB electricity.

Keep an eye on the rate that new wind and interconnectors are being commissioned. Within 18 months we’ll have another 4GW of interconnector capacity, with more on the way. In 2-3 years we’ll have another 6GW of wind, much of which is well offshore and more reliable, with a further 6GW in the following 3 years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

so i go away for the day on business, drive over 200 miles. Get home with a nearly flat battery. Daughter need to go to ballet lesson. Cant charge car as it 17:30 peak demand time.

The thread is about buses, not cars. Buses don't suddenly discover that their kid wants a lift somewhere, they do the same thing all day, every day, and so you can easily plan for how to charge them.

And in my present circumstances. live in a village in conservation area and national park. No parking outside house (Terrace, opens onto the street). Parking is 150 yards away and not allocated- its first come first served.
Do we really want to despoil pretty villages with charging points?

13A charging points (for use overnight) don't need to be big ugly things (building them into decorative lamp-posts has been suggested) and don't put a strain on anything because the system can already cope with that, because you could have the cooker on during the day but you aren't going to at 3am. Or you can get a bigger charge at the fast charger at the motorway services while you take a break during your 200 mile drive. You do, don't you? If you don't, then that you're being forced to do so like you should is a good, not bad, thing.

And would the distribution system cope with the extra load?

For a 13A overnight charge, yes, of course it would, because it can cope with the whole street putting the cooker on at roughly the same time, something they tend not to do in the middle of the night.

keep an eye on gridwatch and see just how much we rely on fossil fuels

I actually find the answer to that on Gridwatch is "surprisingly little"!

And all the time India and China are building more and more coal fired power stations........

Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[Bald Rick]

And all the time India and China are building more and more coal fired power stations........

But also developing far more wind and solar than anyone else. And in China’s case, have committed to taking coal offline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The main reason for electric vehicles *at the moment* is to cut air pollution in urban areas. Carbon emission reduction is secondary and depends on how the electricity is generated.

Plug in hybrids of course work in that context - burn petrol or diesel down the motorway, then switch to electric once you enter the ULEZ. OK, you still emit the carbon, but the health effects of emissions on people in cities are much more pressing.

 

[Surreyman]

I Note that Dft have just published the following: -

• areas could be awarded up to £50 million each to introduce all-electric bus services
• up to 500 buses could be replaced – saving 1000s of tonnes of CO2 each year – and helping the country build back greener
• 19 towns and cities applied to the all-electric bus competition

Coventry and Oxford are developing proposals to become the first parts of the UK to run all-electric bus services, Transport Secretary Grant Shapps announced today (6 January 2021).

The cities are developing business cases in an England-wide competition to switch an entire town or city’s bus fleet to electric vehicles.

Subject to successful business cases, each area could be awarded up to £50 million to not only replace its entire fleet of buses with all-electric versions, but to also install new infrastructure, such as charging stations, and pay for electric grid updates.

The change to a cleaner and greener bus fleet will help improve air quality and reduce emissions, helping further deliver on the government’s efforts to decarbonise the transport network, as well as support local businesses and jobs in the UK developing green buses.

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said:

As we build back greener from Covid-19, we can provide people with more environmentally-friendly transport and cleaner air.
Coventry and Oxford could soon be at the forefront of our plans for a new era of bus services, helping us develop the green transport network of the future and support jobs right here in the UK.

The government received 19 bids from across England to become the first all-electric bus town or city. Applicants were required to:

• demonstrate buy-in from stakeholders in their local areas
• outline existing plans to reduce greenhouse gases and improve air quality
• show how the plan would tackle an existing air quality problem.

Andy Street, the Mayor of the West Midlands, said:

This news is brilliant for Coventry and the West Midlands, and I am delighted the Secretary of State and his department have once again put their faith in our region to deliver.
Turning all of Coventry’s bus fleet electric is not only a major boost to public transport in the city, but it will also help tackle the climate emergency we face both here in the West Midlands and the wider UK.

Oxfordshire County Council Leader, Cllr Ian Hudspeth, said:

Oxfordshire’s bid comes at a time when our council is determined to take concerted climate action to cut vehicle air pollution and expand the provision of bus services with our Zero Emission Zone and Connecting Oxford plans. This council is committed to offering our residents a clean and environmentally sustainable future through a series of steps including through better public transport.

The government will work with the 2 local authorities to finalise their business cases over the coming weeks.

The all-electric bus towns and cities competition is part of a wider package of measures to improve services and make bus journeys greener, easier and more reliable.

If I am reading this correctly, it seems to be saying one or the other, i.e down to the final 2 but it could be interpreted as saying that both Cities could be awarded funding?

 

[carlberry]

I Note that Dft have just published the following: -

• areas could be awarded up to £50 million each to introduce all-electric bus services
• up to 500 buses could be replaced – saving 1000s of tonnes of CO2 each year – and helping the country build back greener
• 19 towns and cities applied to the all-electric bus competition

Coventry and Oxford are developing proposals to become the first parts of the UK to run all-electric bus services, Transport Secretary Grant Shapps announced today (6 January 2021).

The cities are developing business cases in an England-wide competition to switch an entire town or city’s bus fleet to electric vehicles.

Subject to successful business cases, each area could be awarded up to £50 million to not only replace its entire fleet of buses with all-electric versions, but to also install new infrastructure, such as charging stations, and pay for electric grid updates.

The change to a cleaner and greener bus fleet will help improve air quality and reduce emissions, helping further deliver on the government’s efforts to decarbonise the transport network, as well as support local businesses and jobs in the UK developing green buses.

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said:


The government received 19 bids from across England to become the first all-electric bus town or city. Applicants were required to:

• demonstrate buy-in from stakeholders in their local areas
• outline existing plans to reduce greenhouse gases and improve air quality
• show how the plan would tackle an existing air quality problem.

Andy Street, the Mayor of the West Midlands, said:


Oxfordshire County Council Leader, Cllr Ian Hudspeth, said:


The government will work with the 2 local authorities to finalise their business cases over the coming weeks.

The all-electric bus towns and cities competition is part of a wider package of measures to improve services and make bus journeys greener, easier and more reliable.

If I am reading this correctly, it seems to be saying one or the other, i.e down to the final 2 but it could be interpreted as saying that both Cities could be awarded funding?

The quote itself appears to be woolly enough to mean a range of things between both have won some money to neither will ever get the money because we could still reject the final business case because we wont be able to afford it by then! It just sounds like more delay!