Potential replacement of Southern Class 313s and 455s?

[Aictos]

As the Class 313s and Class 455s for Southern won't last forever, what could replace them?

My thinking is Southern or their successor places a order for a Class 700 type as there's 46 Class 455/8s which usually operate as a pair of Class 455/8s then it would only need a minimum of 26 Class 700/0s to replace the entire Class 455/8 fleet.

And if you divert both of the existing Bedford to Gatwick Airport services to run to Reigate instead that would free up some Class 377s which could retire the Class 313s as Gatwick Airport would still see 2tph to Bedford/Peterborough/Cambridge each plus the various Southern and GatEx services so the airport won't lose out.

 

[Energy]

How many 455s are used? If I remember correctly it was in the low 30s for some time and is now about 40?

Swap the 387s for 379s at GN, cascade (GN and Southern are the same franchise so no change in lease) them across with the C2C 387s and it gives 35 4 car units, transfer 23 377s at SE (I expect them to be replaced at SE in the next franchise) and you have 58 4 car trains which can completely replace the 313s and leaves 39 to replace the 455s, which should be enough due to the improved reliability, low 455 usage and being able to be pooled with the rest of the Southern fleet (bar 171s).

 

[JonathanH]

How many 455s are used? If I remember correctly it was in the low 30s for some time and is now about 40?

It was never in the low 30s. There was a proposal before the May 2018 timetable was formulated to reduce their usage but it didn't happen in practice.

However, I don't think that the idea of shortening formations in the light of the downturn in travelling should be discounted as a way of releasing the 313s and 455s. As you say, there are alternative methods to backfill the 313s and 455s using cascades using existing rolling stock.

And if you divert both of the existing Bedford to Gatwick Airport services to run to Reigate instead that would free up some Class 377s which could retire the Class 313s as Gatwick Airport would still see 2tph to Bedford/Peterborough/Cambridge each plus the various Southern and GatEx services so the airport won't lose out.

Given construction of a platform (and electricity supply) at Reigate isn't funded and the capital budget has been reduced, there won't be 700s to Reigate any time soon. You could chop the Reigate service altogether but it would only free up four 377s and the seven or eight units allocated to the peak extensions to Gatwick / Three Bridges. I think that is unlikely.

 

[Energy]

However, I don't think that the idea of shortening formations in the light of the downturn in travelling should be discounted as a way of releasing the 313s and 455s. As you say, there are alternative methods to backfill the 313s and 455s using cascades using existing rolling stock.

Agreed, getting the electrostars I mentioned above wouldn't be too difficult with the exception of the SE 377s which we would have to see what the next SE franchise does, although releasing the 377s looks likely to me.

 

[JonathanH]

with the exception of the SE 377s which we would have to see what the next SE franchise does

Of course, there won't be a "next" SE franchise. It is all in the power of the DfT for the moment. In another thread, there are unresolved discussions about what South Eastern are going to do with the 707s they are just about to acquire. While it might not be what they were initially considered for, the DfT could yet dictate that the 25 377s (including 377163/64) go to Southern as a result, they are already allocated to Selhurst. 25 377s and some service shorter formations / peak service cuts for 55 313/455s might just about be enough without any need for changing where 387s operate.

 

[Aictos]

It was never in the low 30s. There was a proposal before the May 2018 timetable was formulated to reduce their usage but it didn't happen in practice.

However, I don't think that the idea of shortening formations in the light of the downturn in travelling should be discounted as a way of releasing the 313s and 455s. As you say, there are alternative methods to backfill the 313s and 455s using cascades using existing rolling stock.


Given construction of a platform (and electricity supply) at Reigate isn't funded and the capital budget has been reduced, there won't be 700s to Reigate any time soon. You could chop the Reigate service altogether but it would only free up four 377s and the seven or eight units allocated to the peak extensions to Gatwick / Three Bridges. I think that is unlikely.

It was never in the low 30s. There was a proposal before the May 2018 timetable was formulated to reduce their usage but it didn't happen in practice.

However, I don't think that the idea of shortening formations in the light of the downturn in travelling should be discounted as a way of releasing the 313s and 455s. As you say, there are alternative methods to backfill the 313s and 455s using cascades using existing rolling stock.


Given construction of a platform (and electricity supply) at Reigate isn't funded and the capital budget has been reduced, there won't be 700s to Reigate any time soon. You could chop the Reigate service altogether but it would only free up four 377s and the seven or eight units allocated to the peak extensions to Gatwick / Three Bridges. I think that is unlikely.

As to Reigate, how much does the Down Siding get used and if rarely why not extend the Reading bound platform over the connection and remove the siding?

Yes it means moving a signal but that's easily doable.

As to Reigate itself, instead of the 16 Class 377s being used for it you could use them elsewhere internally and just divert the Bedford to Gatwick Airport service to replace the London Victoria to Reigates as it be a upgrade as it would mean more seats.

 

[Minstral25]

Given construction of a platform (and electricity supply) at Reigate isn't funded and the capital budget has been reduced, there won't be 700s to Reigate any time soon. You could chop the Reigate service altogether but it would only free up four 377s and the seven or eight units allocated to the peak extensions to Gatwick / Three Bridges. I think that is unlikely.

Probably a long way off. In any case when the Southern service is swapped to Thameslink will free a 700, but may need more 377's as it will be replaced by a new Southern 8/12 car train from Victoria to Horsham or Three Bridges.

 

[JonathanH]

As to Reigate, how much does the Down Siding get used and if rarely why not extend the Reading bound platform over the connection and remove the siding?

Yes it means moving a signal but that's easily doable.

As to Reigate itself, instead of the 16 Class 377s being used for it you could use them elsewhere internally and just divert the Bedford to Gatwick Airport service to replace the London Victoria to Reigates as it be a upgrade as it would mean more seats.

That is exactly what is proposed but it requires a power upgrade, a new crossover, rebuilding the car park, a new entry road as well as the platform and signal work. Yes, it is doable but it certainly isn't just moving a signal and it costs money.

Take a look at an aerial map and look where the crossover is for terminating trains to return back to Redhill, that is a greater constraint than the siding.

There aren't 16 class 377s tied up with providing peak services to the Redhill corridor, more like 12. During the off-peak it is only four. If they really needed the units, you would just axe the Victoria to Reigate / Gatwick services and use the Tonbridge units to run Reigate to Tonbridge but that would be at the cost of the Redhill corridor's link to Victoria.

 

[Minstral25]

As to Reigate, how much does the Down Siding get used and if rarely why not extend the Reading bound platform over the connection and remove the siding?

Yes it means moving a signal but that's easily doable.

As to Reigate itself, instead of the 16 Class 377s being used for it you could use them elsewhere internally and just divert the Bedford to Gatwick Airport service to replace the London Victoria to Reigate's as it be a upgrade as it would mean more seats.

If you take that simple solution a fundamental issue remains that the North Downs is restricted by a train turning round in the platform. This creates problems right along the route and hence the proposal for a terminating platform.

Additionally as JH says there is apparently a need to upgrade power supply to allow 12 car trains along the branch, which, along with signalling, is a significant part of the cost of providing the new platform.

There aren't 16 class 377s tied up with providing peak services to the Redhill corridor, more like 12. During the off-peak it is only four. If they really needed the units, you would just axe the Victoria to Reigate / Gatwick services and use the Tonbridge units to run Reigate to Tonbridge but that would be at the cost of the Redhill corridor's link to Victoria.

There would be no savings of units as over half passenger usage (prior to May 18 timetable change) from Redhill route is to Victoria and it still needs a minimum of 6 trains per hour along the Redhill corridor, which means if Bedford's replace Victoria's to Reigate then you need to introduce a replacement for the Bedford's.

 

[MatthewRead]

I was talking to members of Southern staff about this and they were talking about another batch of 700's but being a dispatcher he said you can't see the drivers cab and the whole train due to the way they are built.

 

[adc82140]

In the medium term I reckon the re tractioned SWR 455s could replace Southern's 455s, and shortened 455/7s with the ex 508 TSO removed could replace the 313s.

 

[Aictos]

If you take that simple solution a fundamental issue remains that the North Downs is restricted by a train turning round in the platform. This creates problems right along the route and hence the proposal for a terminating platform.

Additionally as JH says there is apparently a need to upgrade power supply to allow 12 car trains along the branch, which, along with signalling, is a significant part of the cost of providing the new platform.



There would be no savings of units as over half passenger usage (prior to May 18 timetable change) from Redhill route is to Victoria and it still needs a minimum of 6 trains per hour along the Redhill corridor, which means if Bedford's replace Victoria's to Reigate then you need to introduce a replacement for the Bedford's.

Why would the Bedford's need replacing? When the London Bridge to Horsham services? we're replaced by though services to Peterborough, I don't think that had any changes needed.

There's still 2tph between Bedford and Brighton plus the other TL services that one can connect onto at any Core station plus at East Croydon so there isn't a issue at all.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

In the medium term I reckon the re tractioned SWR 455s could replace Southern's 455s, and shortened 455/7s with the ex 508 TSO removed could replace the 313s.

I'm sorry but the reason they shouldn't still be in service isn't the motors, its the levels of comfort, the shabby nature of both the Southern and SWR sets and their age, they are 38 years old on a 40+ year Mark 3 design.

Why would you replace like for like?

A homogenised fleet of electrostars is blatantly the most sensible option.

 

[Minstral25]

Why would the Bedford's need replacing? When the London Bridge to Horsham services? we're replaced by though services to Peterborough, I don't think that had any changes needed.

There's still 2tph between Bedford and Brighton plus the other TL services that one can connect onto at any Core station plus at East Croydon so there isn't a issue at all.

They don't. The Bedford will take on the Reigate turns and the Victoria to Reigate trains need replacing. The issues are along the Redhill route not in Bedford itself.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm sorry but the reason they shouldn't still be in service isn't the motors, its the levels of comfort, the shabby nature of both the Southern and SWR sets and their age, they are 38 years old on a 40+ year Mark 3 design.

Why would you replace like for like?

A homogenised fleet of electrostars is blatantly the most sensible option.

The SWR trains are way better than their Southern counterparts. They had a full refurb, not something half-assed

 

[DB]

Why would you replace like for like?

I expect the ones with new motors are more efficient and less maintenance-intensive. While it would obviously be better to replace the units with something newer, if that wasn't possible for whatever reason then the SWR 455s probably would be a better option than the current ones - you can hardly claim it's 'like for like' when one fleet has had a lot of money spent failrly recently on replacing some of the major comoponents, whereas the other fleet hasn't.