Suggestions for future use of Class 332s post-HEx

[D365]

Just as some 319s are being repurposed as multi-mode 769s, it's a pity that the newer 332s could not have also been retained and repurposed.

No it's not!

What incentive does Heathrow have to throw money at 13 decrepit units that won't be of any use on Network Rail infrastructure.

 

[CBlue]

I don't understand the fascination some have with this batch of units. Dare I ask why?

 

[Journeyman]

Just as some 319s are being repurposed as multi-mode 769s, it's a pity that the newer 332s could not have also been retained and repurposed.

There's a reason why 319s were chosen for conversion - the 750v bus line throughout the train, which makes diesel mode a simple business of feeding into it.

AC only units, especially non-standard ones with fancy electronics, and once again no TPWS making them impossible to operate elsewhere, are much harder to convert to bi-mode.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2020 ==

I don't understand the fascination some have with this batch of units. Dare I ask why?

I know, it's crazy. A small fleet of completely non-standard trains of no use elsewhere, that have put in a respectable 20 years. Plenty have done a lot less.

 

[DB]

I don't understand the fascination some have with this batch of units. Dare I ask why?

I don't understand why some people come on railway forums, then ask why people are interested in some particular aspect of the railway....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2020 ==

There's a reason why 319s were chosen for conversion - the 750v bus line throughout the train, which makes diesel mode a simple business of feeding into it.

And there are plenty of them, so the cost of the design and testing work can be spread over a good few units. With a small non-standard class the business case is far less likely to stack up.

 

[CBlue]

I don't understand why some people come on railway forums, then ask why people are interested in some particular aspect of the railway....

My issue is less with the interest and more with irrational obsession over finding a use for them. Speculation does provoke interesting discussion but shouldn't ever be at the expense of rationality.

 

[DB]

My issue is less with the interest and more with irrational obsession over finding a use for them. Speculation does provoke interesting discussion but shouldn't ever be at the expense of rationality

I guess it's probably that in this country we've become used to trains lasting 30-35 years or even longer, and these are only 20 years old.

 

[jon0844]

No it's not!

What incentive does Heathrow have to throw money at 13 decrepit units that won't be of any use on Network Rail infrastructure.

If I didn't know from places like this, and having used them for the majority of trips to/from Heathrow, I could see why people are upset about them being scrapped.

Given the quality of the refurbishment, they were very nice places to be for a very short/quick journey. They felt quite premium, especially in first class (and I won't argue about whether anyone should ever pay for first!!).

But the trains are clearly no good for use elsewhere and had major 'underlying health conditions'. And a premium interior is nothing you couldn't do on any train - including the 387s if the powers that be had decided to go all out.

 

[Journeyman]

I guess it's probably that in this country we've become used to trains lasting 30-35 years or even longer, and these are only 20 years old.

A lot of rolling stock has had a similar lifespan. Lots of first generation DMUs only lasted 15 or so years.

 

[DB]

A lot of rolling stock has had a similar lifespan. Lots of first generation DMUs only lasted 15 or so years.

Yes, but not in recent decades. Even the Pacers managed around 35 years!

 

[Journeyman]

If I didn't know from places like this, and having used them for the majority of trips to/from Heathrow, I could see why people are upset about them being scrapped.

Given the quality of the refurbishment, they were very nice places to be for a very short/quick journey. They felt quite premium, especially in first class (and I won't argue about whether anyone should ever pay for first!!).

But the trains are clearly no good for use elsewhere and had major 'underlying health conditions'. And a premium interior is nothing you couldn't do on any train - including the 387s if the powers that be had decided to go all out.

However nice the refurbished trains are, they have an extremely specialised interior that would have to be ripped out if anyone else were to use them. They'd lose 99% of their appeal at that point, and become Just Another EMU.

And there's plenty of those about to go spare. With TPWS.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2020 ==

Yes, but not in recent decades. Even the Pacers managed around 35 years!

The 379s are about to go off-lease!

 

[RT4038]

A lot of rolling stock has had a similar lifespan. Lots of first generation DMUs only lasted 15 or so years.

Mostly because line closures rendered them surplus. Electric units are usually able to last much longer than their diesel counterparts, to the point of bodywork being obsolete rather than being worn out, mainly due to less vibration.

 

[jon0844]

However nice the refurbished trains are, they have an extremely specialised interior that would have to be ripped out if anyone else were to use them. They'd lose 99% of their appeal at that point, and become Just Another EMU.

And there's plenty of those about to go spare. With TPWS.

Is there any reason for the HEX 387s not to remain in use until they too are retired? I will wait until I've been on one to give a comment on how premium or not they feel (clearly on GatEx, they're just standard 387s with red seats, but they're not the same level of premium cost) but do hope they have made a decent effort.

I certainly wouldn't imagine saving a few quid on an internal refresh is down to how suitable they are for cascading later on. They'd need another refresh in the future anyway.

Had the 332s been suitable for elsewhere, I am sure standard could have remained as is for the most part (maybe remove some of the diffused purple lighting). First class would most likely just get more seating installed. All could have been done quite easily IMO.

As an aside, I'm looking forward to seeing the Southern 387s upgrades with the all-new PIS system and improved lighting.

 

[Journeyman]

Mostly because line closures rendered them surplus. Electric units are usually able to last much longer than their diesel counterparts, to the point of bodywork being obsolete rather than being worn out, mainly due to less vibration.

Haven't these had corrosion issues? I still maintain 20 years is decent, and they're of no use elsewhere.

 

[DB]

The 379s are about to go off-lease!

They are more standard in design, and part of a range of which there are a lot of similar units. I very much doubt if they will be scrapped.

 

[jon0844]

They are more standard in design, and part of a range of which there are a lot of similar units. I very much doubt if they will be scrapped.

There was a time it was rumoured they'd go to GN and replace the 365s. I don't know how far this plan got before the pandemic.

They certainly won't be scrapped though. With a bit of a facelift inside and out, they're good trains for someone to use.

 

[DB]

There was a time it was rumoured they'd go to GN and replace the 365s. I don't know how far this plan got before the pandemic.

They certainly won't be scrapped though. With a bit of a facelift inside and out, they're good trains for someone to use.

They are one of those cases where replacing them at all doesn't seem to make much sense!

 

[Journeyman]

They are one of those cases where replacing them at all doesn't seem to make much sense!

There's a lot to be said for fleet standardisation. But anyway...if you were looking for extra EMUs right now, wouldn't a 379 be more appealing than a 332?

 

[D365]

if you were looking for extra EMUs right now, wouldn't a 379 be more appealing than a 332?

Not on this subforum it seems!

In reality, absolutely.

 

[DB]

if you were looking for extra EMUs right now, wouldn't a 379 be more appealing than a 332?

Yes, sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that it's unusual these days for units just over 20 years old to be scrapped.

It's obviously an issue which is going to affect a number of fleets in the near future (350/2 as well). With the government liking 'new and shiny' in franchise bids in recent years, and no coherent cascade plan, it's led to a surplus of EMUs around mid-life with no planned future use. Not such as issue with DMUs are most of those with no planned use (except 175s) are older already, although some still have life in them (158s, etc).

 

[Journeyman]

Yes, sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that it's unusual these days for units just over 20 years old to be scrapped.

It's obviously an issue which is going to affect a number of fleets in the near future (350/2 as well). With the government liking 'new and shiny' in franchise bids in recent years, and no coherent cascade plan, it's led to a surplus of EMUs around mid-life with no planned future use. Not such as issue with DMUs are most of those with no planned use (except 175s) are older already, although some still have life in them (158s, etc).

But it's a small, non-standard fleet that needs extensive and expensive work before it can be used anywhere. I don't see the problem here.

 

[DB]

But it's a small, non-standard fleet that needs extensive and expensive work before it can be used anywhere. I don't see the problem here.

I'm not saying it is a problem! I just tried to answer your question as to why many people are surprised to see 20 year old EMUs scrapped - i.e. trains these days normally last at least 30 years. Yes, I am aware of particular factors with these units which make them unattractive to potentiaol purchasers, but others may not be aware of this.

Not much point in going round the same circle again...

 

[MarkyT]

Another factor working against their retention is their relatively poor power to weight relationship, particularly the five-car units, seen here compared to a typical electrostar, the cl.387:

When they were working among HSTs and turbos on the WR main lines this was not a handicap, but in the new fully electrified world they are the sluggish ones today.
I recall from my days at Reading and Swindon that they were considered to have particularly heavy bogies and stiff suspension so were not very track-friendly. I suspect that would have an effect on their track access charges under any new operator.

 

[D365]

Yes, sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that it's unusual these days for units just over 20 years old to be scrapped.

The Class 373s would like a word

But yes, the 373s and 332s are very much exceptions, rather than the norm.

 

[The Ham]

Hypothetically, if the cab of the 332 was buried then the lack of TPWS would be mitigated, as it would be fitted in the leading cab - a Mk1 coach for example isn’t TPWS fitted but the loco or whatever is dragging it is.

But You’d need to box in both ends - so that would entail running 12/13 (4-333+4/5-332+4-333) - with 23m coach lengths that’s impractically long on almost any route, never mind Leeds/Bradford/Ilkley/Skipton. And the on train software on the 332 certainly cannot cope with units running in triplets, I suspect same applies to 333s. I’m also dubious they would actually work together - they have the same couplers, but some of the control electronics are vastly different.

Indeed it would be ”no”. I’m not even sure they would be compatible at all in service.

Thank you for your replies, I thought that would be the case.

 

[bramling]

There was a time it was rumoured they'd go to GN and replace the 365s. I don't know how far this plan got before the pandemic.

They certainly won't be scrapped though. With a bit of a facelift inside and out, they're good trains for someone to use.

It wouldn’t surprise me if eventually they end up on either GTR or Southeastern, (even if expenditure was required to convert to DC) but I’d be surprised if they replaced the 365s.

Two reasons for that, firstly the 365s are now government owned so there is a vested interest in keeping them employed. Secondly it now appears they are attempting to fit ETCS on the 365s, and presumably if they are going to the substantial bother of fitting that then someone must think they have a future on a section of line soon to get ETCS. Anyone know any such section of line?!!

 

[swt_passenger]

...
Two reasons for that, firstly the 365s are now government owned so there is a vested interest in keeping them employed. Secondly it now appears they are attempting to fit ETCS on the 365s, and presumably if they are going to the substantial bother of fitting that then someone must think they have a future on a section of line soon to get ETCS. Anyone know any such section of line?!!

Unless they just want a dedicated 100 mph ETCS test unit in NR yellow...

 

[D365]

Unless they just want a dedicated 100 mph ETCS test unit in NR yellow...

365525 (my long time desktop picture) in yellow. There's a thought.

 

[Tobbes]

Nearly

Circuits A & B go and stable at T5 tonight. Circuit C goes back to Old Oak Common.

Units at T5 tonight will split in the morning, one goes empty to CTA for 2E24 0522 back to T5, the other stays at T5 for 1Y22 0512 up to London

Network Rail had originally intended to extend a planned OHLE isolation in the Hanwell area tomorrow (Sunday) morning until 0520 from its scheduled 0420 handback. The above plan was put together by yours truly to enable full service to be run from start of service, which if the wires were off the original 2 empties off the Oak would not get down the airport in time. It is probably the last night 332s will be stabled away from depot. That isolation extension was cancelled this morning, however we were too far gone with arranging outstables to undo it anymore, so the plan stands.

Fleet status is currently units 001, 002, 003, 005, 012 and 014 stood down from traffic permanently, with 014 already removed by road and scrapped.

Monday 14th is currently the working date for 387 introduction. It’s unclear even internally at this stage whether that will be a big-bang all-387 affair or only 1 or 2 circuits covered. Service frequency is restored to 4tph in late December.

The “what’s happening with the units / why are they being scrapped” has been done to death in other threads many times over - They’re going, it’s been decided. It’s a shame with rose-tint spectacles on but absolutely sound economically. I’ve only worked closely with them for the past year or so since we took on HEx operation, but please hear me when I state, they‘re done. They’ve had a very hard life and if you can get up close to them and underneath them, as we did on a depot tour in 2019 as part of our pre-takeover familiarisation, it sadly becomes very apparent that while they are well looked after cosmetically, underneath they are in desperate need of a lot of very expensive attention. Coupled with the ever-shifting goalposts of how long they were to remain in service being pushed back and back, they’re (in my humble opinion) beyond economic saving, and it would seem that everyone these were offered to would agree.

Many thanks for this. Is one going to the NRM? Don't the 332s have a central role to play in the privatisation story, as, IIRC, they were the first units ordered by the private sector? If so, then the NRM should have one.

 

[DB]

Many thanks for this. Is one going to the NRM? Don't the 332s have a central role to play in the privatisation story, as, IIRC, they were the first units ordered by the private sector? If so, then the NRM should have one.

That doesn't make them notable enough to be worth preserving one - they don't represent any particular advance or change, nor are they a typical example of anything widespread. The NRM has enough space issues as it is.

 

[Ianno87]

Many thanks for this. Is one going to the NRM? Don't the 332s have a central role to play in the privatisation story, as, IIRC, they were the first units ordered by the private sector? If so, then the NRM should have one.

That doesn't make them notable enough to be worth preserving one - they don't represent any particular advance or change, nor are they a typical example of anything widespread. The NRM has enough space issues as it is.

Wonder if Didcot Railway Centre might take a vehicle, being the first electric trains to work on the "Great Western"?