Ex London Euro 6

[Surreyman]

The whole of Greater London becomes a Euro 6 only zone for buses & coaches from March 1st 2021(unless further Covid issues delay).
The red bus fleets have had their exhaust systems progressively upgraded in order to comply and the last non Euro 6 buses will be coming out of service in the next few months.
This means that London buses replaced and sold in 2021 will soon all be Euro 6 compliant.
This must present a golden opportunity for other operators to acquire secondhand Euro 6 compliant stock at secondhand prices rather than new.
Before anyone mentions it, yes I am aware that most London vehicles have centre exits with wheelchair access via centre door & double deckers are 'Full-Height' and often (but not always, shorter body lengths) ditto roller blind displays & straight 'London style staircases'.
I am not just thinking about smaller operators, Arriva, Go-Ahead & Stagecoach (and in the past - First) have cascaded vehicles to their non-london operations.
Of course many London operators lease their buses from finance companies but this is has not proved to be an obstacle, leasing companies are often only to happy to speedily sell depreciated assets.
Arriva currently seems to be very hesitant on Cap-Ex spending on new vehicles and its fleet is ageing.
A steady supply of 10-13 year old Euro 6 compliant buses is likely to depress prices on non Euro 6 secondhand stock.

 

[cnjb8]

We will have to see if London operators want to sell stock that they've had to splurge out on to bring it to the best emission standards. But then again, TfL is making a big push to electric, and new electrics will have to replace something.

 

[Robertj21a]

Removing those centre doors and having a shorter, lower capacity, decker may not be very attractive to many.

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

Removing those centre doors and having a shorter, lower capacity, decker may not be very attractive to many.

Doesn't seem to worry First Eastern Counties. Most of the vehicles on my local bus route are ex London double deckers with the centre door removed and replaced by seating.

 

[Robertj21a]

Doesn't seem to worry First Eastern Counties. Most of the vehicles on my local bus route are ex London double deckers with the centre door removed and replaced by seating.

But First Eastern Counties doesn't need Euro6 to meet any current requirement (as far as I know) so can carry on buying Euro 5 single door, higher capacity, deckers from anybody if they need some.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ignoring the impact of Covid, the big groups were doing the usual tricks; delivering new fleet into those areas getting LEZ/CAZs, moving existing compliant vehicles from other fleets, or getting more readily convertible fleet into those areas to take advantage of various grants for conversions. Arriva swapped hybrid B5LHs from Northumberland to West Yorkshire with standard DB300s going the other way. First moved some rather sickly yet compliant Streetdecks from South Yorkshire to Leicester but on securing grants for exhaust retrofitting, those Streetdecks are instead heading to Bath (again for a CAZ) and e400s from Bolton are instead in Leicester having been suitably modified.

The big groups have been burnt before with ex London stock. The purchase price may be lower but not once you factor in the conversion costs. Also, you're talking about buses that have been used all day and often all night for 12-14 years so what state will they be in?

 

[Surreyman]

The big groups have been burnt before with ex London stock. The purchase price may be lower but not once you factor in the conversion costs. Also, you're talking about buses that have been used all day and often all night for 12-14 years so what state will they be in?

GrandWazoo, agree with your comments re big groups, conversion costs and overall mechanical condition.
I note some ex London stock coming onto the second hand market is a recent as '12 reg.
GoAhead northeast are currently using sizeable numbers of ex London deckers, retaining centre doors/ramps/wheelchair arrangements.
I acknowledge that centre exits are not universally loved in the UK & seating capacity is obviously lost but in a post Covid economy they can be lived with (Or only used by wheelchairs?)
Dublin have had an on/off relationship with single/dual door operation for several decades, even today passengers use both front & centre doors to exit.
There has been much public funding for Euro 6 upgrades but nearly all of this has been in the big urban cities or conurbations.
For 'Second division operators' ex London Stock offers an easy path to Euro 6 compliance.
The scenario currently exists of a potential buyer looking at buying a second hand 'decker, choosing between a high mileage Euro 6 compliant ex London vehicle with 2 doors or a Euro 4/5 vehicle with a single door, I guess the 'market' will determine the price, much will depend on the how the vehicle is going to be used and where.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

GrandWazoo, agree with your comments re big groups, conversion costs and overall mechanical condition.
I note some ex London stock coming onto the second hand market is a recent as '12 reg.
GoAhead northeast are currently using sizeable numbers of ex London deckers, retaining centre doors/ramps/wheelchair arrangements.
I acknowledge that centre exits are not universally loved in the UK & seating capacity is obviously lost but in a post Covid economy they can be lived with (Or only used by wheelchairs?)
Dublin have had an on/off relationship with single/dual door operation for several decades, even today passengers use both front & centre doors to exit.
There has been much public funding for Euro 6 upgrades but nearly all of this has been in the big urban cities or conurbations.
For 'Second division operators' ex London Stock offers an easy path to Euro 6 compliance.
The scenario currently exists of a potential buyer looking at buying a second hand 'decker, choosing between a high mileage Euro 6 compliant ex London vehicle with 2 doors or a Euro 4/5 vehicle with a single door, I guess the 'market' will determine the price, much will depend on the how the vehicle is going to be used and where.

I don't know how many second division operators really operate in places that are likely to demand Euro VI deckers. There's Faresaver running into Bath and I assume that they are already going to be retrofitting their existing ex London B9s. Diamond won't buy ex London stuff - they're buying new. Transdev pursue leasing and possibly buying whatever comes off their own leases. Can't think of many more as most built up places that need deckers are with the big boys and indies tend to be at the margins. I guess that the market might be more for school vehicles should they need to go into a CAZ??

I think we'll continue to see that outside of the places with LEZs and CAZs, Euro VI just won't figure for a while except where a route is of sufficient importance to need new vehicles; I'm thinking of First and the new Excel fleet in Norfolk as an example. Investment post-Covid is going to be strained anyway (which I think is the original point). However, I suspect that other than the odd selected provincial route, or where some local quality agreement or contract demands age-compliant fleet (and many of those will probably in places with CAZs), new vehicle investment will be concentrated in those areas with CAZs.

 

[Grahamk748]

Just out of interest, does anyone know roughly how much it costs to remove the centre doors and replace with seats?

 

[carlberry]

Just out of interest, does anyone know roughly how much it costs to remove the centre doors and replace with seats?

I dont know the answer however what's made it more complcated recently is that the centre door is often needed either as the second emergency exit or as it's where the wheelchair ramp is. In either of those cases removing it makes the vehicle unusable without also making other modifications. Again it varies by vehicle type.

 

[Robertj21a]

Just out of interest, does anyone know roughly how much it costs to remove the centre doors and replace with seats?

One operator said he expected it to cost about £10k to remove the second door and fit a ramp at the front on an ex-London Gemini. No idea if that is typical.

 

[CN04NRJ]

The ex London B9TLs with Lothian seem to do quite well, I've never had any issues with one. Then again, they had alot of money spent rebuilding them.

 

[MotCO]

How many Euro VI buses will be moving out of London? TfL has said all new buses need to be electric (I think it includes double deckers) which are obviously more expensive than diesel. Given the state of finances at TfL, can they afford tenders with new electric buses or will old Euro VI buses need to soldier on?