Wheelchair passenger not allowed to board

[EM2]

How are the wheelchair spaces on a 142 designed?
Are they like many of the 319s, where there are seats there but they can be tipped up out of the way, or are they a dedicated space, as on 222s?

They are in the end of the train where there tip up seats / long tip up benches usually.

So if there are passengers seated there, they can be requested to move. Gotcha.

 

[Lampshade]

How are the wheelchair spaces on a 142 designed?
Are they like many of the 319s, where there are seats there but they can be tipped up out of the way, or are they a dedicated space, as on 222s?

It's a longitudinal tip-up seat near the door, in fact I'm not even sure it's a proper wheelchair space.

EDIT: From the video, it would have been in the other carriage, the video clearly shows passengers looking forwards from their perspective, suggesting it's normal seating near that door.

 

[Anvil1984]

It doesn't meet DDA requirements as the wheelchair passengers can't get into the toilet (even if the toilets were DDA compliant), they are designated as wheelchair priority spaces but just like any passengers, if the rest of the passengers refuse to move for them then there is nothing we can do except ring control especially if its on an infrequent route.

 

[Skimble19]

wow, I admire you Mr K for being so outrageously stubborn about something that you're almost certainly lying about.. and if your not lying, your attitude makes it look like you are. Frankly I can see why the guard would have got annoyed with you just by how you post, you're clearly rude, we saw that in the video and you're clearly extremely arrogant. I expect you'll now accuse me of being against disabled people - dream on sunshine, one of my best friends is disabled..

I wrote 'I believe' - not 'I am certain'. You cant expect me to rememebr everything, do you? There will be cctv to back me up where required. But, again, this is irrelevant.

There's some very big differences between a 323 and a 142, you'll almost certainly be able to tell the difference.

 

[boing_uk]

Personally, I believe he was too lazy to get the ramp for me. There was a ramp there, it is there to be used in these circumstances. If it was a 2 part ramp then still it was there to be used.

Clearly it is you who is lazy. You have been informed time and time again as to why you could not get on this particular service, yet you stubbornly refuse to pay heed to this.

There was no notice or warning of problems either at Piccadilly or Guide Bridge.

There are no problems at Picc, its at Guide Bridge, as you have been told times too numerous to now count.

And as the next train was 12 minutes from this one's departure, the guard wanted the next person to do the job.

Even after everything you have been told you are still of this opinion? And the earth is flat as well I presume?

He had many chances to tell me what was the reason but he did not want to. Why. Because he had no valid reason. The fact I went to customer services and they also said the guard should put the ramp down, means that there was no problem.

And did you inform CS which service you wanted to get on and where they aware of which sort of train it was? Probably not in both cases I should imagine, given the way you seem to come across not only on the video but also in your postings on here and on DS.

The guard must have thought I would just sit back and wait twenty two minutes for the next train.

Where does this 22 minutes come from? If you had to wait from the departure of the service you could not physically get off, to the departure of the next service 12 minutes later which could accomodate your needs, where is this extra ten minutes coming in to the equation?

Both started pointing fingers at me as if I was a naughty child - and that too in front of other passenger who were smirking. The guard was embarking other passengers with smiles on board the train yet her was refusing me a ramp.

Have you wondered WHY the other passengers were smirking? It is human nature to find amusement in someone getting a cummuppance particularly if arrogance is displayed beforehand. If the guard was in fact unjustified in his approach to you most people would probably have been embarrassed and looked away and ignored the situation, or nine times out of ten at least one person may intervene, but in this situation they have not. Why is that I wonder?

He was walking away from me purely because I was in a wheelchair. He would not have walked away from an able bodied person in such a way.

Actually I think he probably would had an able bodied person displayed the same attitude towards him. More than likely he would have stood his ground rather than walking away.

The guards body language is quite intriguing and is certainly not the behaviour of a person who is lazy, indignant or insulting. Its actually the behaviour of someone who is almost embarrassed by the situation, clearly frustrated and seemingly bewildered at how the situation has come about in the first place... its almost as if he is caught off guard by a situation that has inflamed for a seemingly unapparent and illogical reason.

He will think twice the next time he comes in contact with a person in a wheelchair, and so will other workers in public transport employment.

Of that I have absolutely no doubt whatsover as it is human nature. He will ensure that all procedures are followed to the letter; there will be no going above the call of duty unless the passenger is clearly not of the same mindset as yourself.

Having been at the recieving end of a couple of malicious complaints from disabled people (mentally and physically) I too now keep an accurate record of both my whereabouts and my dealings with members of the public, as it is always useful in backing up your side of the story. Moreover, I now interact much less with many members of the public beforehand, because you simply cannot tell where the next knife-of-complaint will be coming from. And yes, they used the "well the CCTV will back me up" claim as well. **

I think we can summarise this whole event down to these succinct points:

• The guard explained to you the problem but you did not accept it due to a probably mix of ignorance and arrogance
• You repeatedly expressed your desire to board this train despite being told you could not, which inflamed your anger further
• You felt wronged and belittled and decided you would exact revenge on the traincrew and gateline staff because the system failed you and these people represent the system
• Despite being in posession of better knowledge and background of the situation you run straight to the media to get your five minutes of fame and exact a public hanging of the staff you feel wronged you
• You have exxagerated your claims, skirted questions, been unclear and inconsistent in your account because you know full well that you are making a mountain out of a molehill and will be found out.

Unfortunately the law of unintended consequences has come in to play. In your haste to make an issue of this and embarrass the the staff involved, you have jeopardised two peoples livlihoods, one significantly, and made a mockery of yourself in forums where there are people who know more technical detail about the trains, network and methods of working than you were ever likely to know.

The situation has snowballed out of all proportion to what you first thought it would and now you are caught like a rabbit in the headlights and have had to do some serious backtracking while also attempting to mask the inconsistencies in your hastily prepared background information, which I have no doubt has been based somewhere in truth, but again twisted to meet the ends of your little vendetta.

I think, sir, it is you who will be eating your words. It is unfortunate that in todays media, the truth of this story will not be spread as far and wide as your original claims, becuase its just not PC to brand a poor guy in a wheelchair - asian no less - a liar and a fraud, despite its truthfulness.

BTW, I will gladly and wholeheartedly apologise and gorge on humble pie should my thoughts on this matter be proven wrong. However I think my diet is safe.

**It was good fortune that on both occasions, after the complainants giving positive identification of me, and positive details on times and locations, it was proven that I was not there, because I was actually on leave and as I dont live where I work and indeed was away on holiday, it was impossible for it to have been me. Despite these claims being proven malicious, they are still on my employment record as notes.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Where does this 22 minutes come from? If you had to wait from the departure of the service you could not physically get off, to the departure of the next service 12 minutes later which could accomodate your needs, where is this extra ten minutes coming in to the equation?

In the thread at DS, he came to the conclusion that he would be waiting another 22 minutes, because he had sat their arguing for 10 minutes. I do so hope he isn't a maths teacher!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You have exaggerated your claims, skirted questions, been unclear and inconsistent in your account because you know full well that you are making a mountain out of a molehill and will be found out.

And, my god, it will be embarrassing when the media and Northern Rail find it out. He has made his life a whole lot more difficult by this as now every NR member of staff will try and avoid him when he needs assistance after this. I'm not saying it's right, but it's how it is.

 

[ukrob]

Time and time again he refuses to answer questions, and those that he does seem to have different answers from forum to forum. Selective memory too it seems.

Complete liar.

 

[YorkshireBear]

you agreed then disagreed with me, i told you you hadnt got all the facts, but when i mentioned you accused without facts on your own opinion you have had a go at me. That is exactly what happened.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I have asked a friend who used to be a Northern Guard (albeit at Man Vic), they said that there are separate rules for electric chairs 9whic the man in question had), they also said that 142s aren't suitable for wheelchairs, and given the platform's thinness country bound at GUI, they said that it would be too risky, and from this I think the guard should have a choice whether to do it or not.

 

[trentside]

I've been following this thread with interest. While not an expert on the area, or indeed the rolling stock, I have only one thing to say to the complainant.

You got on about discrimination, but surely your actions are only going to make things worse for yourself in the future? By filming the guard, to vilify him and his actions in the media, is surely only going to serve to make him and his colleagues less likely to want to help you in the future, knowing that you clearly like to make malicious complaints via channels other than the one that would achieve anything other than trial by media.

 

[ukrob]

On Digital Spy he has decided that the guard didn't want to do his job, not that he couldn't.

 

[Greenback]

As your have wrote in a 'gloves-off' attitude then I can make a personal statement about the guard and his attitude.

Personally, I believe he was too lazy to get the ramp for me. There was a ramp there, it is there to be used in these circumstances. If it was a 2 part ramp then still it was there to be used.

There was no notice or warning of problems either at Piccadilly or Guide Bridge. And as the next train was 12 minutes from this one's departure, the guard wanted the next person to do the job.

Its something you get frequently with black cab taxis. They delibertly do not stop for you, or not take your job over the phone, because they will have to get out of the taxi to put the ramp down. So they will leave it to the next guy. That is what this guard has done.

He had many chances to tell me what was the reason but he did not want to. Why. Because he had no valid reason. The fact I went to customer services and they also said the guard should put the ramp down, means that there was no problem.

Someone being lazy on a job when there are millions eager to go into employment is just not good enough. I hate that attitude and I will not stand for it.

The guard must have thought I would just sit back and wait twenty two minutes for the next train. He never envisaged something like this and was astonished when I took my phone out.

The second official could have told me the problem, but he was too busy chatting on the walkie-talkie to give me any notice.

Both started pointing fingers at me as if I was a naughty child - and that too in front of other passenger who were smirking. The guard was embarking other passengers with smiles on board the train yet her was refusing me a ramp.

He was walking away from me purely because I was in a wheelchair. He would not have walked away from an able bodied person in such a way.

I would have taken the next train had the guard not been so arrogant towards me.

He will think twice the next time he comes in contact with a person in a wheelchair, and so will other workers in public transport employment.

This has gone far enough and we will not tolerate such discrimination any more.

I am sorry but those here that think I am at fault have a shock coming their way, and will be eating their words soon.

And that is all I have to say on this matter. Any further question you can pm me.

Thanks.

Well, there we have it. A peerson who seems to have again let his emotions get the better of him, as seems to be the case with negihbours and when on the phone and being on hold.

We can clearly see now the sort of personality that Mr Khaliq has. He is ona crusade . HE believes that all sorts of people aren't interested in helping the disable, because theya re too lazy, can't be bothered, or are prejudiced against wheelchair users. As a result, he is going tot each everyone a lesson when he comes across anything he personally believes falls into this category.

Iw as trying to keep an open mind, but Mr K's rants clearly show how the guard could easily have been subjected to a barrage of verbals from Mr K before filming started. And we are still none the wiser about whether he has ever been informed on previous occasions about the difficulties at Guide Bridge, or whether he has been unofficially accommodated on some 142's in spite of the rules!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think we can summarise this whole event down to these succinct points:

• The guard explained to you the problem but you did not accept it due to a probably mix of ignorance and arrogance
• You repeatedly expressed your desire to board this train despite being told you could not, which inflamed your anger further
• You felt wronged and belittled and decided you would exact revenge on the traincrew and gateline staff because the system failed you and these people represent the system
• Despite being in posession of better knowledge and background of the situation you run straight to the media to get your five minutes of fame and exact a public hanging of the staff you feel wronged you
• You have exxagerated your claims, skirted questions, been unclear and inconsistent in your account because you know full well that you are making a mountain out of a molehill and will be found out.

Top post! Sadly for Mr K, the situation a lot of us thought likely, and which you describe, now seems to be icnreasingly certain givne the evidence we do have.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Please can we let sleeping dogs lie now; Mr K has been on here DS and Youtube, and is quite clealry making a mess of the whole situaution, I think suitable conclusions havee been drawn already

 

[tonyaran]

I posted the following on a different forum and thought it might be best to post it on this too. I apologise for my earlier burst.

Let me try and explain it in simple terms.

Whatever has happened a fault lies somewhere. Either the guard was at fault, the rail company or myself. I don't believe in the latter but then again I have right not to.

If the guard refused to put the ramp down without a geniune reason then he is at fault. If all the apparatus were there to assist in getting a wheelchair on board and then disembark at Guide Bridge, then there is no justified reason for the guard not to have boarded me. If it is proven this is the case then the guard will be severly reprimanded in line with his contract with Northern Rail. It is not for me to decide on his punishment. But if someone did ask me then I would not ask for his dissmissal as I understand he must have a family and bills to pay. One mistake (if it is just the one) should not define his whole career.

If it is proven that the guard was justified in not boarding me onto the train then it would be due to 2 reasons. Either the apparatus were faulty and there was a serious danger of accident either to me or other passengers. Or it was due to my 'rudeness' and therefore the guard would be right not to board me. I dont believe in the latter. If there was a problem then the train company should have made better measures to relay that problem and took measures to accomodate me some other way. If the problem happened recently then I will not proceed further with this matter as I dont believe in taking any action against the rail company if something failed in the prior few hours. However, if the problem was ongoing (again something which I dont believe as I have used this train prior with 1 and 2 ramps - if I can recall correctly and cctv will proove this) then the rail company is at fault and further action needs to be taken so that something like this will not happen again.

If (and this is a big if) it is concluded that the problem is ME and I was wrong, then I will apologise to all. including all the officials involved at Manchester Piccadilly rail station. This includes the guard. I will also notify the press that I was wrong and hasty and should not have done what I did. But I do not believe I am at wrong.

I have travelled on trains many times and most of the assistance has been A-rate. I would wish to continue to use trains and Northern Rail mostly. Right nor I am a little 'scared' to travel on the trains because I feel the staff might gang-up on me and I may conveniantly be left at a secluded station somewhere. But this is my own problem and I will overcome it in due course.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I posted the following on a different forum and thought it might be best to post it on this too. I apologise for my earlier burst.

Let me try and explain it in simple terms.

Whatever has happened a fault lies somewhere. Either the guard was at fault, the rail company or myself. I don't believe in the latter but then again I have right not to.

If the guard refused to put the ramp down without a geniune reason then he is at fault. If all the apparatus were there to assist in getting a wheelchair on board and then disembark at Guide Bridge, then there is no justified reason for the guard not to have boarded me. If it is proven this is the case then the guard will be severly reprimanded in line with his contract with Northern Rail. It is not for me to decide on his punishment. But if someone did ask me then I would not ask for his dissmissal as I understand he must have a family and bills to pay. One mistake (if it is just the one) should not define his whole career.

If it is proven that the guard was justified in not boarding me onto the train then it would be due to 2 reasons. Either the apparatus were faulty and there was a serious danger of accident either to me or other passengers. Or it was due to my 'rudeness' and therefore the guard would be right not to board me. I dont believe in the latter. If there was a problem then the train company should have made better measures to relay that problem and took measures to accomodate me some other way. If the problem happened recently then I will not proceed further with this matter as I dont believe in taking any action against the rail company if something failed in the prior few hours. However, if the problem was ongoing (again something which I dont believe as I have used this train prior with 1 and 2 ramps - if I can recall correctly and cctv will proove this) then the rail company is at fault and further action needs to be taken so that something like this will not happen again.

If (and this is a big if) it is concluded that the problem is ME and I was wrong, then I will apologise to all. including all the officials involved at Manchester Piccadilly rail station. This includes the guard. I will also notify the press that I was wrong and hasty and should not have done what I did. But I do not believe I am at wrong.

I have travelled on trains many times and most of the assistance has been A-rate. I would wish to continue to use trains and Northern Rail mostly. Right nor I am a little 'scared' to travel on the trains because I feel the staff might gang-up on me and I may conveniantly be left at a secluded station somewhere. But this is my own problem and I will overcome it in due course.

Read post # 279

 

[tonyaran]

Read post # 279

I have read that post and if that was the case then the rail company is at fault for not providing adequate apparatus to embark/disembark a wheelchair user. So then the rail company is at fault. But this was not relayed to me, by either the guard, the other two officials or the Customer Services man, and it was not even mentioned on the news reports by the Northern Rail official. I would have assumed that he would know about this, or would have tried to find out about it, before he went on tv. But I have used this type of train and both sides of the platform at Guide Bridge with one and two ramps prior - so again the 'excuse' is irrelevant.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I have read that post and if that was the case then the rail company is at fault for not providing adequate apparatus to embark/disembark a wheelchair user. So then the rail company is at fault. But this was not relayed to me, by either the guard, the other two officials or the Customer Services man, and it was not even mentioned on the news reports by the Northern Rail official. I would have assumed that he would know about this, or would have tried to find out about it, before he went on tv. But I have used this type of train and both sides of the platform at Guide Bridge with one and two ramps prior - so again the 'excuse' is irrelevant.

Not all trains have to be compliant with the DDA before 2020...

 

[ukrob]

I posted the following on a different forum and thought it might be best to post it on this too. I apologise for my earlier burst.

Let me try and explain it in simple terms.

Whatever has happened a fault lies somewhere. Either the guard was at fault, the rail company or myself. I don't believe in the latter but then again I have right not to.

If the guard refused to put the ramp down without a geniune reason then he is at fault. [/quote]

It is IF now then is it?

If all the apparatus were there to assist in getting a wheelchair on board and then disembark at Guide Bridge, then there is no justified reason for the guard not to have boarded me.

It wasn't, so he didn't.

If it is proven this is the case then the guard will be severly reprimanded in line with his contract with Northern Rail. It is not for me to decide on his punishment. But if someone did ask me then I would not ask for his dissmissal as I understand he must have a family and bills to pay. One mistake (if it is just the one) should not define his whole career.

You should of thought about that before you plastered his face all over the Internet.

If it is proven that the guard was justified in not boarding me onto the train then it would be due to 2 reasons. Either the apparatus were faulty and there was a serious danger of accident either to me or other passengers. Or it was due to my 'rudeness' and therefore the guard would be right not to board me. I dont believe in the latter. If there was a problem then the train company should have made better measures to relay that problem and took measures to accomodate me some other way.

Hello? You were advised to get the train twelve minutes later. That would accommodate you. Would you prefer to see all trains that can't accommodate you scrapped with no replacements forthcoming?

If the problem happened recently then I will not proceed further with this matter as I dont believe in taking any action against the rail company if something failed in the prior few hours. However, if the problem was ongoing (again something which I dont believe as I have used this train prior with 1 and 2 ramps - if I can recall correctly and cctv will proove this)

You have categorically stated that you haven't elsewhere. Stop changing your story.

then the rail company is at fault and further action needs to be taken so that something like this will not happen again.

Reasonable measures were in place. The next train, or a taxi. Not perfect, but that is how it works until all trains are DDA complaint. It is not the rail company who decides when trains should be DDA compliant by.

If (and this is a big if) it is concluded that the problem is ME and I was wrong, then I will apologise to all. including all the officials involved at Manchester Piccadilly rail station. This includes the guard. I will also notify the press that I was wrong and hasty and should not have done what I did. But I do not believe I am at wrong.

Nothing you ever do or say will repair the damage you have done to the guard.

I am starting to suspect that you are actually a very clever troll. All the signs are there.

 

[Lampshade]

But I have used this type of train and both sides of the platform at Guide Bridge with one and two ramps prior - so again the 'excuse' is irrelevant.

Clearly you haven't, class 142s cannot be used with a single ramp, they need the two-part ramp to deal with the double step.

 

[ainsworth74]

I have read that post and if that was the case then the rail company is at fault for not providing adequate apparatus to embark/disembark a wheelchair user.

Train Operating Companies only need to provide reasonable adjustments or alternatives, in this case a train 12 minutes later or if you had asked a Taxi to take you to your front door. They do not have to make every train fully compatible with the DDA until 2020 and are making strides towards that goal.

 

[Greenback]

Please can we let sleeping dogs lie now; Mr K has been on here DS and Youtube, and is quite clealry making a mess of the whole situaution, I think suitable conclusions havee been drawn already

No. There have been lots of developments and new posts since I was last able to view the threads and I have a right to comment on them. Once it is felt there is no further point in the discussions, I am sure the mods will be able to decide whether to lock the thread.

I would still like to know if Mr K has ever been informed that it was not possible to diembark on the particular platform at Guide Bridge, or whether he has unofficially been taken there through the goodwill of the staff, and that this has now been stopped.

 

[tonyaran]

Not all trains have to be compliant with the DDA before 2020...

True. But then again I should have been relayed that information. And as I have travelled on that particular train before to and from Gudie Bridge (cctv) will show this) then it means that it does work and that wheelchair users can embark/disembark. So your argument is irrelevant.

 

[ainsworth74]

And as I have travelled on that particular train before to and from Gudie Bridge (cctv) will show this) then it means that it does work and that wheelchair users can embark/disembark.

Can we see the CCTV please?

 

[Greenback]

If you have been carried on a 142 traim to Guide Bridge before, have you been allowed to make this journey unofficially? In other words, have the staff been doing you a favour and this has now been stopped?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

True. But then again I should have been relayed that information. And as I have travelled on that particular train before to and from Gudie Bridge (cctv) will show this) then it means that it does work and that wheelchair users can embark/disembark. So your argument is irrelevant.

CAN I MAKE THIS PERFECTLY CLEAR: there are diff rules and regs for electric wheelchairs, ramps on CLASS 142 PACER units cannot be used at GUI without prior arrangement fpor alternatives. If any TM has let you do this before on the same train witht he same chair, they are at fault, not the TM you blame. So your argumant is irrelevant
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you have been carried on a 142 traim to Guide Bridge before, have you been allowed to make this journey unofficially? In other words, have the staff been doing you a favour and this has now been stopped?

What I was trying to say ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[tonyaran]

If the guard refused to put the ramp down without a geniune reason then he is at fault.

It is IF now then is it?



It wasn't, so he didn't.



You should of thought about that before you plastered his face all over the Internet.



Hello? You were advised to get the train twelve minutes later. That would accommodate you. Would you prefer to see all trains that can't accommodate you scrapped with no replacements forthcoming?




You have categorically stated that you haven't elsewhere. Stop changing your story.



Reasonable measures were in place. The next train, or a taxi. Not perfect, but that is how it works until all trains are DDA complaint. It is not the rail company who decides when trains should be DDA compliant by.



Nothing you ever do or say will repair the damage you have done to the guard.

I am starting to suspect that you are actually a very clever troll. All the signs are there.[/QUOTE]

I wrote a detailed post, explaining all the factors and outcomes, and yet you still come out with more arguments. If you have a problem with this I suggest you write a letter in favour of the guard, detailing everything you know of, and send it to Northern Rail so that they can use it when they do eventually come to investigate this matter.

I dont have anything to hide or be afraid of therefore I please take my advice and send that letter using my quotes from this and other forums.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Clearly you haven't, class 142s cannot be used with a single ramp, they need the two-part ramp to deal with the double step.

Clearly I have. And I am prepared to use a one ramp to embark and disembark from this train at the station/platform concerned at my own risk. If you want to you can go ahead and arrange that. I am available anytime.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

right at the bottom of the box on this page:

http://www.northernrail.org/travel/stations/Guide+Bridge%5BGUI%5D

Apparently GUI station has no CCTV, if theres CCTV at MAN, how are we to know you alighted at GUI?

 

[tonyaran]

Train Operating Companies only need to provide reasonable adjustments or alternatives, in this case a train 12 minutes later or if you had asked a Taxi to take you to your front door. They do not have to make every train fully compatible with the DDA until 2020 and are making strides towards that goal.

And what you have wrote in a matter of mere seconds is exactly what anyone of the three officials and the one customer services man could have relayed to me in twelve minutes. The fact is they did not.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


clearly i have. And i am prepared to use a one ramp to embark and disembark from this train at the station/platform concerned at my own risk. If you want to you can go ahead and arrange that. I am available anytime.

you cant use one ramp on a 142!!!!!!!!!!! And you wouldnt be allowed - it breaches h & s.

 

[tonyaran]

I would still like to know if Mr K has ever been informed that it was not possible to diembark on the particular platform at Guide Bridge, or whether he has unofficially been taken there through the goodwill of the staff, and that this has now been stopped.

I have never before beeen imformed about disembarking problems at Guide Bridge.