Atherton fast lines - a mistake to remove them and possible reinstatement

[Philip]

Would you say it was a mistake to remove the Atherton fast lines in the 1960s and would it be a big project to restore them?

If they were restored in conjunction with the planned restoration of the link at Kirkby then then you could divert some Liverpool services away from the crowded Chat Moss to run along this route; it would probably be faster anyway if 75mph running was permitted. Also the current Northern Cumbria service could start from Victoria and use this route to reach Wigan in a good time, rather than via Parkside, and so reduce the number of trains on the Castlefield section.

Of the bits of the Atherton line I've seen, the spaces and bridge holes where the tracks used to be are still there so on the face of it, it doesn't seem a big job to put them back in.

Does anyone know why they were removed in the first place?

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, not a mistake. The line is best suited to a frequent all-stations service in the style of Merseyrail, with fast services going via Bolton.

 

[Bevan Price]

4 tracks were needed only because there used to be a lot of slow-moving coal traffic from the numerous collieries that once existed. The big mistake was to let the speed limit sink to as low as 45-50 mph.
Some semi-fast services should still continue over the route, calling at, maybe, Walkden, Atherton and then Wigan, then continuing to Southport.

 

[Philip]

What did the speed used to be?

Was it not an intercity route in its day, I thought the additional tracks were for express services towards Liverpool?

 

[Ianno87]

Would you say it was a mistake to remove the Atherton fast lines in the 1960s and would it be a big project to restore them?

If they were restored in conjunction with the planned restoration of the link at Kirkby then then you could divert some Liverpool services away from the crowded Chat Moss to run along this route; it would probably be faster anyway if 75mph running was permitted. Also the current Northern Cumbria service could start from Victoria and use this route to reach Wigan in a good time, rather than via Parkside, and so reduce the number of trains on the Castlefield section.

Of the bits of the Atherton line I've seen, the spaces and bridge holes where the tracks used to be are still there so on the face of it, it doesn't seem a big job to put them back in.

Does anyone know why they were removed in the first place?

How do you get to Liverpool without causing conflicts with the WCML at Wigan? Is there capacity for these trains at Salford Crescent?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Is there capacity for these trains at Salford Crescent?

I do not know but I very seriously doubt it. To be very useful Wigan situation would need to be sorted. All possible if you throw enough money at it of course but money is better spent electrifying from Salford Crescent through to Southport imho.

 

[Philip]

How do you get to Liverpool without causing conflicts with the WCML at Wigan? Is there capacity for these trains at Salford Crescent?

I was referring to the Kirkby line, since there are plans to reconnect the national rail line to the Merseyrail line at Kirkby and so restore the through route to Liverpool.

As for Salford Crescent, isn't the eastern through line bi-directional? I think at the moment only the up Scottish service uses it, so perhaps this could be used for more expresses through Salford, albeit not stopping? Is there access to the Atherton line from the through line at Salford?

 

[Bevan Price]

What did the speed used to be?

Was it not an intercity route in its day, I thought the additional tracks were for express services towards Liverpool?

Mostly 75 mph limit, except over curves & junctions. The (now removed) pair of lines were indeed used for express services to both Liverpool Exchange & Southport, and were mostly allowed about 25 minutes from Manchester Victoria to Wigan Wallgate. There were no fast line platforms at some of the stations. The local services were much less frequent than nowadays, and the slow lines were shared with freight.

The line was also used by a few fast trains between Manchester, Preston & beyond, to avoid Bolton. They used the long-removed line between Doobs Brow Jn (west of Daisy Hill) and Horwich Fork Jn (south of Blackrod), or another alternative, the connection from Hindley (No.2 Box) to the Whelley line at De Trafford Jn.

 

[Ianno87]

I was referring to the Kirkby line, since there are plans to reconnect the national rail line to the Merseyrail line at Kirkby and so restore the through route to Liverpool.

Not really, only to operate through to Skelmersdale. It's not clear whether it would be technically possible to run a through train from Wigan all the way to Liverpool (access to Knowsley freight terminal would presumably be retained, but that would be it). That's before you consider what happens to these trains as they plunge into the Merseyrail tunnels (constrained to 6-car length and presumably optimised for Class 777s in future)

As for Salford Crescent, isn't the eastern through line bi-directional? I think at the moment only the up Scottish service uses it, so perhaps this could be used for more expresses through Salford, albeit not stopping? Is there access to the Atherton line from the through line at Salford?

No the though line is Up only, but can be entered in the Down direction to reverse. There is a "Yellow Shunt" available towards Bolton on the Up line (in the Down direction), as far as a limit of shunt beyond the next Up signal (but no crossover to get to the Down Bolton). The through line is totally inaccessible from Atherton in either direction.

Salford Crescent is too important an interchange for trains to randomly start missing out - although a third platform on this line would be generally useful anyway (IMO)

 

[yorksrob]

Not really, only to operate through to Skelmersdale. It's not clear whether it would be technically possible to run a through train from Wigan all the way to Liverpool (access to Knowsley freight terminal would presumably be retained, but that would be it). That's before you consider what happens to these trains as they plunge into the Merseyrail tunnels (constrained to 6-car length and presumably optimised for Class 777s in future)



No the though line is Up only, but can be entered in the Down direction to reverse. There is a "Yellow Shunt" available towards Bolton on the Up line (in the Down direction), as far as a limit of shunt beyond the next Up signal (but no crossover to get to the Down Bolton). The through line is totally inaccessible from Atherton in either direction.

Salford Crescent is too important an interchange for trains to randomly start missing out - although a third platform on this line would be generally useful anyway (IMO)

There appears to be a turnback siding East of Liverpool Central. A through service from Wigan could presumably reverse here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There appears to be a turnback siding East of Liverpool Central. A through service from Wigan could presumably reverse here.

I don't entirely know why this Forum so often tends towards wanting to run through services from everywhere they can think of onto Merseyrail, but the strength of Merseyrail is its simplicity - this is why it achieves very high punctuality and reliability figures, and this is precisely its strength. Therefore, through bi-modes from Manchester Victoria (1980s DMUs would definitely not be allowed in the tunnels; the MPVs do run there but with exhaust scrubbers) are not something which is in any way desirable. If you want to travel through from Wigan or Manchester to Liverpool there are other opportunities to do that.

To be honest, I can see the future being Merseyrail Liverpool-Skem and Northern Skem-Wigan-Manchester, anyway. Or perhaps 2tph to Skem and 2 to Wigan, then the Atherton Line could be self-contained.

 

[edwin_m]

While a fast alternative route between Liverpool and Manchester would be of value, this one would encounter major obstacles in getting into either city and would probably need reinstatement of the section avoiding Wigan to offer worthwhile through journey times. I don't think the current service frequency on the route creates any problems with running limited stop services to Southport or Kirkby.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While a fast alternative route between Liverpool and Manchester would be of value

No, it really wouldn't, unless it's NPR (and as NPR is proposed to be Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester, it's likely that the CLC will be changed to an improved local service when it opens). There are two already. There is absolutely no need whatsoever for a third one.

Absent the wires, get the 195s onto the Atherton Line and run a Merseyrail style 4tph all stations service through to somewhere east of Vic, perhaps two to Staly and two to Rochdale or something, and one extended back to Kirkby for now, maybe Skem later. Also tidy up the stations. Southports can and should run via Bolton. Do that and, once COVID goes away, the passengers will come running. Merseyrail's concept is solid, popular and successful, and if Merseyrail isn't enough evidence on its own, look at London Overground.

 

[Senex]

The Atherton fast lines were 75 once clear of the unmodernised Manchester mess, with a 70 at Dobbs Brow Jn and then one of those 50 all ways junctions at Crow Nest that the L&Y had several of. Beyond Wigan, Pemberton Jn was 35 all ways, and then the slow approach to Liverpool began with 50 at Walton. The 75 was pretty well the standard BR limit for secondary main lines once speeds were restored after the war, so no-one knows what could have been achieved over the L&Y fasts as there was never any need to assess them for more.

If "HS3" or some variant of it is built, including arrangements to get from Liverpool to Manchester, then another fast route between the two cities won't be needed, and in any case, the L&Y route simply because of distance was never potentially as fast as either the LNW or the CLC. But in best crayonista mode, I can see a use for the L&Y fast lines. Birmingham, Liverpool, and Manchester all have lousy connections into the WCML in a northbound direction. Birmingham gets the problem solved with HS2. For Liverpool, by far the best route was the L&Y, which has probably gone beyond any hope of restoration. But there does seem to be just a possible route for Manchester which would not involve too much re-purchase of land or demolition of property. Restore the Atherton fast lines as far as the junction with the Wigan avoiding line (don't carry on to a junction in Wigan because that would be far too complicated at the south end of the station on a constricted and curved site), build a new and faster curve to the avoiding line route, upgrade that route, and restore the diveunder junction at Standish to get into the WCML. Too much to hope for, almost certainly, but it does look at the moment as if both Manchester and Liverpool to Scotland will be the poor relations of the post-HS2 world (not that I'll be around to see it).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Birmingham, Liverpool, and Manchester all have lousy connections into the WCML in a northbound direction

Er, do they? Manchester has the Chat Moss route and via Bolton/Chorley, and Liverpool has via Wigan (and Parkside if you really want). Liverpool's service is infrequent, but there's no infrastructure reason why it has to be so; making it hourly instead of 3tpd is just a matter of units, crews and subsidy.

The best use for the Atherton line is as a frequent, high quality suburban stopping service (ideally with the wires, but as the Snow Hill lines and the 172s demonstrate, for now there are classes of DMUs that do a good job, too). Doing anything else with it diminishes that role or wastes money.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't entirely know why this Forum so often tends towards wanting to run through services from everywhere they can think of onto Merseyrail, but the strength of Merseyrail is its simplicity - this is why it achieves very high punctuality and reliability figures, and this is precisely its strength. Therefore, through bi-modes from Manchester Victoria (1980s DMUs would definitely not be allowed in the tunnels; the MPVs do run there but with exhaust scrubbers) are not something which is in any way desirable. If you want to travel through from Wigan or Manchester to Liverpool there are other opportunities to do that.

To be honest, I can see the future being Merseyrail Liverpool-Skem and Northern Skem-Wigan-Manchester, anyway. Or perhaps 2tph to Skem and 2 to Wigan, then the Atherton Line could be self-contained.

Walking along a platform at Kirkby (Skelmersdale in future) really has never been the big deal some seem to make it out to be.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't entirely know why this Forum so often tends towards wanting to run through services from everywhere they can think of onto Merseyrail, but the strength of Merseyrail is its simplicity - this is why it achieves very high punctuality and reliability figures, and this is precisely its strength. Therefore, through bi-modes from Manchester Victoria (1980s DMUs would definitely not be allowed in the tunnels; the MPVs do run there but with exhaust scrubbers) are not something which is in any way desirable. If you want to travel through from Wigan or Manchester to Liverpool there are other opportunities to do that.

To be honest, I can see the future being Merseyrail Liverpool-Skem and Northern Skem-Wigan-Manchester, anyway. Or perhaps 2tph to Skem and 2 to Wigan, then the Atherton Line could be self-contained.

It's the lot of Merseyrail that Ormskirk and Kirby are odd places to have buffer stops. Anyhow I was merely pointing out that the option existed (dual voltage electrification would be better than running diesels on it).

Anyhow, as a regular user of the Atherton line, I don't see self-containing it as being in any way desireable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Walking along a platform at Kirkby (Skelmersdale in future) really has never been the big deal some seem to make it out to be.

Having grown up with Merseyrail, I agree completely. I didn't walk along the platform at Kirkby very often as it's not a great route to Manchester from Aughton Park; via Lime St and the CLC or via Preston were my preference, then there's the two Burscoughs which if you split tickets was considerably cheaper but a bit slower than the other two due to the infrequent services[1] and the walk. But I walked along the platform at Ormskirk countless times, and on no occasion did it kill me. They also (sssh!) often waited for connections, too!

Skem would be even better, as the most sensible design would be the two services either side of an island platform, so you're talking about 4 metres' walk.

[1] Southport-Manchester was, in the 1990s, a roughly-hourly-but-not-quite service to Picc and beyond, about every 1h15, a bit like Ormskirk-Preston, but with some peak extras to Vic. Obviously if you didn't walk fast enough that could mean a long wait at some times of day.

 

[Ianno87]

It's the lot of Merseyrail that Ormskirk and Kirby are odd places to have buffer stops. Anyhow I was merely pointing out that the option existed (dual voltage electrification would be better than running diesels on it).

Anyhow, as a regular user of the Atherton line, I don't see self-containing it as being in any way desireable.

Ormskirk and Kirkby have quite obvious differences in demand either side of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's the lot of Merseyrail that Ormskirk and Kirby are odd places to have buffer stops.

They aren't odd places to have them at all. They are the points where the lines switch in character from high-volume suburban to very rural driver, guard, one man, dog and bicycle operations. Burscough is growing and has grown and I can see justification for taking Merseyrail to there (and it also enables an hourly single-unit service to Preston) but not really beyond.

The UK isn't the only place you get this. The Hamburg U1 and change onto AKN at Norderstedt-Mitte is, in another port city, a near-identical setup (ish, it's cross platform rather than along it) for near-identical reasons. The U1 is even blue, too

 

[yorksrob]

I think that given how close Kirby is to the centre of Liverpool, there's something to be said for the trains from the Wigan direction continuing the last few miles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that given how close Kirby is to the centre of Liverpool, there's something to be said for the trains from the Wigan direction continuing the last few miles.

Yes, one thing - "it's a really bad idea". It breaks the Merseyrail concept to do so. It would import delays from Manchester Victoria and destroy the consistency of the timetable and operation by involving Class 769s or something (you won't be allowed to run DMUs in the tunnel so you can forget that idea), and that assumes they even fit, the tunnel is quite low at Moorfields.

I would concede to Merseyrail extension to Wigan Wallgate bay but not under any circumstances beyond.

The only people it would benefit significantly are users of Rainford, Orrell and Pemberton (think "one man, dog and bicycle"). People from the Atherton line can change at Wigan for a service from North Western to Lime St. People from Manchester have the choice of two routes, Chat Moss and the Atherton Line. It's just not enough to prat about with what is a very successful formula, one Manchester would do well to emulate.

 

[Senex]

Er, do they? Manchester has the Chat Moss route and via Bolton/Chorley, and Liverpool has via Wigan (and Parkside if you really want). Liverpool's service is infrequent, but there's no infrastructure reason why it has to be so; making it hourly instead of 3tpd is just a matter of units, crews and subsidy.

None of them is a decently fast route. Birmingham-Wolverhampton is dreadful (though on to Stafford's OK), as is Liverpool via St Helens to Wigan. Even Manchester-Bolton-Preston can't deliver a 60mph average speed, to use what is now a very old standard indeed of "fast". Via Parkside is ruined for both Liverpool and Manchester by the curvature and speeds between Newton/Parkside and Golborne and by the relatively low speed for much of the distance between Parkside and Manchester. Leeds back to the ECML at York is much better served, and yet there are plans for further improvement there. There are perfectly good historical reasons for why things are as they are, but one can certainly regret some of the things that the old comapnies (and particularly the four in the inter-war years) chose not to spend their money on (and the fixation on steam locomotives rather than on infrastructure).

 

[Bletchleyite]

None of them is a decently fast route.

And neither is the Atherton line.

(removed the other bit as you were talking about Manchester-Scotland via Atherton, sorry)

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, one thing - "it's a really bad idea". It breaks the Merseyrail concept to do so.

I would concede to Merseyrail extension to Wigan Wallgate bay but not under any circumstances beyond.

The only people it would benefit significantly are users of Rainford, Orrell and Pemberton. People from the Atherton line can change at Wigan for a service from North Western to Lime St. People from Manchester have the choice of two routes, Chat Moss and the Atherton Line. It's just not enough to prat about with what is a very successful formula, one Manchester would do well to emulate.

If it means buffer stops suddenly appearing in the middle of Warrington Central, I'd rather Manchester didn't thanks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it means buffer stops suddenly appearing in the middle of Warrington Central, I'd rather Manchester didn't thanks.

That won't happen pre-NPR, but it's quite likely post-NPR, I'd say, because you don't need three through routes. But that's one for another thread, this one is about Atherton, which is a natural Merseyrail-like operation to Wigan but using (for now) modern high-acceleration DMUs.

The mind boggles as to why you prefer the scruffy, poorly timetabled mess that exists at present. It's very much like the Oldham Loop was pre-Metrolink - rough, run down, dowdy and unpopular with passengers. Popular with people on here because it was interesting, but you don't want "interesting" to get you to work every morning, you want it to "just work". And Merseyrail "just works".

 

[yorksrob]

That won't happen pre-NPR, but it's quite likely post-NPR, I'd say, because you don't need three through routes. But that's one for another thread, this one is about Atherton, which is a natural Merseyrail-like operation to Wigan but using (for now) modern high-acceleration DMUs.

The mind boggles as to why you prefer the scruffy, poorly timetabled mess that exists at present. It's very much like the Oldham Loop was pre-Metrolink - rough, run down, dowdy and unpopular with passengers. Popular with people on here because it was interesting, but you don't want "interesting" to get you to work every morning, you want it to "just work". And Merseyrail "just works".

The Oldham loop was a darn site quicker than it is now.

I've gone into detail before why I like the Atherton line. Reasonably frequent service, speedy trip to the centre of Manchester. There was even a good service at around 20:30 to Leeds last year which I found particularly handy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Oldham loop was a darn site quicker than it is now.

I'd imagine it was. But almost everything else about the new "package" as a whole is vastly, vastly better. Not least because the Oldham station is in the town centre and not an unsafe-feeling walk across a dodgy footbridge over a fume-stinking dual carriageway. It really was grim.

 

[Ianno87]

The Oldham loop was a darn site quicker than it is now.

Only quicker for the people who already had stations...

 

[mwmbwls]

Can I commend Bob Pixton's book "Liverpool Manchester Volume Three" ISBN 978 1 905505 07 4 for an illustrated journey over the former Atherton fast lines. The Liverpool to Manchester corridor was the Eldorado of rail markets combining the Port of Liverpool, the manufacturing megaliths of Lancashire and the West Riding and as a bonus the South Lancashire coalfield. In the laissez faire competition of the pre -grouping period - the London and North Western, the Lancashire and Yorkshire and the Cheshire Lines Committee (a combination of the Midland and what became the Great Central Railway); filled their shareholders' boots. Not so much duplication as triplication. With the decline of of the textile and the mines culminating in a final collapse in the 1960's and 70s - rationalisation was the order of the day and the Atherton fast lines built to bypass Bolton were one of the first casualties. Doctor Beeching saw duplication of routes as low hanging fruit. What then happened fifty years later is that the remaining rail infrastructure has revived and we are bumping up against capacity constraints again. The avoiding lines to Pemberton to the south and west of Wigan have in part recently been converted into a road.

Could the Atherton fast lines be relaid? Yes but not without difficulty. Track maintenance has moved from manual to automated processes - ballast layers tend to be thicker and tracks under bridges have been slewed to maintain clearances; cable routes are now buried. Moving to a three track formation could well be simpler than re-quadrification - especially if the existing slow lines are converted to Metrolink Metro. The third line if built and signalled as a reversible route could serve an emergency relief and/or freight line. The key rebuild would be a split level station at Salford Crescent removing the two conflicting junctions. This has been alluded to in recent proposals to ameliorate the Castlefield Corridor.