What time would the existing Highlander have to leave from Georgemas Junction to meet the current southbound schedule?
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Is there demand for more sleeper services?
- Thread starter py_megapixel
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Journeyman
Established Member
- Joined
- 16 Apr 2014
- Messages
- 6,295
The Edinburgh to Wick/Thurso sleeper is the pet project of one person. It was hopelessly non-viable before COVID, it's pure fantasy now.
A little story for you about the Channel Tunnel, Sleeping Car trains, and demand modelling:
Once upon a time, in a ministry far far away, there lived a man whose job it was to come up with bright ideas.
One day he thought "I know, that Channel Tunnel project has been given the go-ahead. How about running some sleeping car services to link the outlying parts of my fiefdom with the Continent.
So he set about finding out if it could be done.
He soon found that it was going to be very expensive, and take lots of locomotives and specialist generator cars to work such a train. Such extravagances could only be justified if there was a really heavy demand for it.
He turned to the figures produced by his demand modellers. "Gadzooks" sayeth he, "The folks of Swansea and Plymouth are always making journeys overseas. They'll be ideal for this."
A timetable was drawn up, offering services from Swansea and Plymouth (and elsewhere) through the Tunnel to various points Continental. Coaches were built, a fine selection of knackered old 37s were refurbished, and everybody looked forward to the service starting.
Something was niggling away at the Man from the Ministry. He couldn't quite believe the demand figures, so he went back to the originals and dug a little further. When he looked more closely, he realised the fact that the demand for "Continental" travel from Swansea was actually people travelling from Swansea to Cork. Likewise from Plymouth it was passengers for Brittany and Santander, plus assorted naval personnel off to every point of the compass.
The man in a ministry far far away had an even better idea, which was to pull the plug on the entire project, and flog off the unwanted coaches to Canada.
Thereafter he was very careful when it came to demand modelling, always making sure he knew what question was being asked, and of whom.
Or remotely friendly to the environment, even if they are hauled by electric locomotives for part of the route, given they don't currently exist and have a very low load factor.
An alternative response to the 'environmental factor' is not to encourage travel in the first place.
Mcr Warrior
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2009
- Messages
- 17,208
1645 Scotrail service from Georgemas Junction normally arrives in Inverness in time to connect with the Caledonian sleeper to London if that's what you mean.
More to the point, would people rather be in a bed in a relatively small cabin at that time or in a train designed for passengers to sit down? A connection from a Scotrail service at Inverness is far more appropriate than running the sleeper all the way to the far north.
Journeyman
Established Member
- Joined
- 16 Apr 2014
- Messages
- 6,295
Also, the Wick/Thurso to Edinburgh sleeper was proposed to use refurbished Mark 3 sleepers, all of which have now been sold to charter operators, heritage railways or scrap dealers. They were all in dreadful condition anyway. Building more Mark 5s makes the proposal even more ridiculous.
the wick sleeper idea got rejected BTW, the subsidy required was just too much
They’re not.
Was being explored, and subsequently dismissed out of hand by Transport Scotland a year ago.
They said whilst it had “some merits”, it also “generated substantial issues about patronage*, subsidy levels**, and a range of operational risks***... and declined to support the proposal****”
Translation available:
* lack of
** very high
*** including breaking the law
**** it’s a stupid idea, please cease and desist from contacting us.
i would sat for Wick/Thurso they May* be some merit to like what DSB does with its Hamburg to Copenhagen service to run a standard scot rail 158 or two on a overnight from Glasgow to Wick/Thurso via Edinburgh and Aberdeen
no beds just the usual seats for people who need to be in the north of Scotland early in the morning
no beds just the usual seats for people who need to be in the north of Scotland early in the morning
Who needs to be in the north of Scotland any earlier in the morning than the existing trains offer? I don't think you would need two 158s for the overnight you propose.
What, both people?
Sorry to rekindle this, but I half jokingly said in a previous thread it would be cheaper to provide a helicopter service than a sleeper for that route.
geordieblue
Member
Go on, I'll bite, you've piqued my interest. How did the proposal break the law?
i'm assuming cause using Mark 3 could be PRM?
Rolling stock that did not meet the requirements of the Persons of Reduced Mobility requirements. Criminal offence.
I knew it was definitely not a license to print money, wasn't sure if it was still being explored or not.
Purple Orange
On Moderation
Could there be a market for sleeper trains to run from St. Pancras to destinations in Spain, Italy, Germany & the south of France and such like? The last Eurostar leaves London at 8pm, therefore do the next few hours present the opportunity for sleepers to Madrid, Barcelona, Rome, Berlin, Milan or Venice?
The number of operators queuing up to operate such services, and the number operating already, should give you some indication as to the view of the industry of the likely size of this market.
While there seems to be a mini-boom of sleepers on the continent being, it will be very interesting to see how feasible they will be.
However linking capital and large cities 8 hours apart is more easily achieved than in Britain. Any cities 8 hours apart here that do not involve London, so likely Scotland and the West country really, do not have the critical population mass to justify it.
However linking capital and large cities 8 hours apart is more easily achieved than in Britain. Any cities 8 hours apart here that do not involve London, so likely Scotland and the West country really, do not have the critical population mass to justify it.
Well, there's no doubt a market. But satisfying that market within the practical realities of sleeper economics is the difficult part.
Huge amount of red tape for tunnel sleepers in terms of fire safety and also border checks inbound have to be made before the UK.
If it was not for those factors and the high track access charges there may be a better case. Ski train is as good as it gets and that only uses seats.
The ski train is efficient as the stock isn't "wasted"; the overnight train in one direction becomes the day train back (and vice-versa).
Loganair could use up some slack in their Islander fleet - you could probably even provide enough beds!
Even with covid *and* environmental pressure on top I can't see cheap air travel dying completely - it may get a bit slower if we have to use different propulsion but even then it'd still be more convenient than a sleeper ( sadly - just like sailing, I like taking my time to actually travel on the train, most people prefer the arrival though ). I could see something of a niche for charter sleepers taking people on holiday taking some nibbles into the holiday flight market one day, but the route specifics would probably be *quite* specific and the price of jet fuel somewhat higher for that to be remotely worth it, I'd think.
Purple Orange
On Moderation
Really? I’ve no knowledge of how many are queuing up, but what I sense is a bit of a prickly tone to your comment.
The market for travelling to Europe will change slightly over the coming years, in the sense that there will be growing demand for using greener modes of transportation. I suspect there will never be a big enough market for a train from London to Milan or Madrid during the day, given the journey times, available capacity at St. Pancras and the demand to go to Paris, Brussels & Amsterdam.
However, outside of those hours why couldn’t a sleeper service work from London to destinations that are far beyond the 3 hour radius that dominates the ‘day-time’ market?
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I can’t imagine such a service would ever go beyond London, given that a journey to Barcelona for instance, would take roughly 10 hours.
Last edited:
There’s several threads on the subject in the International section if you do a search.
In short, the economics are horrendous. I did a rough run of the numbers for a London - Barcelona sleeper several years ago. The journey time would be at least 12 hours, and to be commercially viable it would need an average single fare in the region of £500. No doubt some people might use it, but compared to easyJet in 2 hours at £40, not many.
As @Bald Rick says, there have been several threads on this subject. The most recent being https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/call-to-let-sleeper-trains-use-the-channel-tunnel.207513/
I think it would be true to say that there is insufficient demand at the price that would need to be charged to make the operation economic. There may be a move towards 'greener' transport by some people, but most would baulk at the price for a sleeper, unless the our culture of holidays changes to less frequent but staying longer away.
There are no queues of prospective operators, which rather shows that they do not see a potential market (in the short to medium term anyway). Bit like liners versus planes.
If the UK was in Schengen, off-the-shelf sleepers could go through the tunnel and track access charges were much less than they are then Barcelona to London could work. But we are where we are.
Another aspect to green travel is to question why we need to get to somewhere so quickly. Our working culture and limited time off is perhaps a contributing factor. We have been spoiled by cheap flights which meant many places could be accessed at a low cost with the limited time off that people have, but that has come at a cost to the wellbeing of certain destinations and CO2 emissions.
Purple Orange
On Moderation
I think how we approach holidays should change. 2 weeks on a beach (dull as dishwater IMHO) with a relatively short flight could make way for allowing the travel to become a part of the holiday.
If sleeper trains are so economically unviable, so as to be £500 for a ticket, how do they even survive in the U.K.?
(PS - is a thread asking about whether there is demand for more sleeper services not the place to ask whether there could be demand for sleeper services to other European countries? Seems relevant to the thread in my view).
If sleeper trains are so economically unviable, so as to be £500 for a ticket, how do they even survive in the U.K.?
(PS - is a thread asking about whether there is demand for more sleeper services not the place to ask whether there could be demand for sleeper services to other European countries? Seems relevant to the thread in my view).
Can we get away from the idea that Sleeper trains represent 'green' travel. They simply don't because the load factors are too low. Green travel involves self propulsion.
Significant subsidies from central or regional government.
Yes, perhaps by simply 'staying local' and relying on television and books to experience other parts of the country and world.
- Status