Wheelchair passenger not allowed to board

[ainsworth74]

He seems to be getting a bit stropy in his last few postings, perhaps not pleased with the lack of support and difficult questions he is having to dodge?

 

[TheBigD]

As someone who has read all 2300+ posts (yes, I know I need to get out more!) on there I just wonder what other disability groups think of his actions.

My personal opinion is that he is doing a lot of harm for his "cause".

EDIT - I'm looking through google for subsequent statements from disabled groups but they seem conspicuous by their absence. No group seems to be really behind Mr Khaliq.

 

[ainsworth74]

(yes, I know I need to get out more!)

Not just you!

Seriously I think I must be a glutton for punishment because I'm not ever sure why I keep reading any more.

 

[jimrbrobinson]

Not just you!

Seriously I think I must be a glutton for punishment because I'm not ever sure why I keep reading any more.

It's like a motorway pile-up. You tell yourself you don't want to look, you don't need to look, but you just can't help yourself. If he digs the hole any deeper he'll come out in Australia! The whole thing is IMO a monumental cock-up all round.

 

[jon0844]

Seems the pressure is on to have the thread there locked as he is digging that hole bigger and bigger.

He thought he was breaking the law, so at that point, was he surprised by the reaction of the staff? And to give the phone to your wife to hide, then run out to avoid the police ONLY TO WAIT AT A BUS STOP FOR 30 MINUTES is priceless!

Still, he has a handful of disciples that will just repeat what he says and say that it is 100% true as the OP has said so - and continue to fight for the locking of the thread. As you say, it goes around and around in circles as a result of the actions of a few who are only there to disrupt.

I haven't had time to look around other DS threads for some time (don't really go on there anymore, as this is how every thread ends up now - from politics to sport, to computing, to talking about mobile technology, Big Brother and other crappy reality TV show stuff and - in the past - discussions about the McCann's) but there a lot of familiar faces who stir up every single time - and often do succeed in getting threads closed, deleted completely or members banned. Some also get banned but return under new names.

It's a bit of a mess - but strangely addictive. Still, I wasted a load of my free time today (Friday) and don't intend to lose my bank holiday weekend. I did for a while consider going to Guide Bridge though, missing a summer ball at the local gym, but decided against it!

 

[CarterUSM]

As someone who has read all 2300+ posts (yes, I know I need to get out more!) on there I just wonder what other disability groups think of his actions.

I've just spent the best part of the evening reading through that whole thread!!! May i say jonmorris, i found your posts to be of a wonderfully high standard compared to many of the others, with some notable exceptions , coming across well balanced , structured and fair comments throughout, though apologies if that sounds patronising, it is well intended i assure you! The OP has taken quite a fair amount of cross examining, though to his credit, is still posting. There is also a distinct lack of personal attacks on each other for such a large thread! My head is a little scrambled with it all though, and i'm uncomfortable with how it has panned out so far, i really hope this comes to a definitive conclusion asap, as there are reputations at stake, personally and professionally, and i don't envy anyone in that predicament........

 

[Lampshade]

It's a bit of a mess - but strangely addictive. Still, I wasted a load of my free time today (Friday) and don't intend to lose my bank holiday weekend. I did for a while consider going to Guide Bridge though, missing a summer ball at the local gym, but decided against it!

I probably still will tomorrow, although the thread does seem to be reaching a climax

 

[TheBigD]

I recomend this post http://www.digitalspy.com/forums/showpost.php?p=43578996&postcount=2385

JonMorris I salute you

 

[CarterUSM]

I recomend this post http://www.digitalspy.com/forums/showpost.php?p=43578996&postcount=2385

JonMorris I salute you

Best post. Anywhere. Ever. Pure gold!

 

[yorkie]

A priceless post by the OP, Mr K:

"When all this over it might bet better if I re-register on DS under a different name"

He'll be demanding plastic surgery and a new identity (at taxpayers expense of course) to avoid being recognised (and ridiculed) if this carries on....:roll:

I suspect he is now regretting making such a fuss over this issue and getting the media involved. If he had just contacted Northern, the guard would probably have got a telling off (but no more than that I'd hope), he would have got an apology (and some free travel vouchers or something) and the whole sorry incident would have then been forgotten about. But oh, no, he wanted the fame... at least, he thought he did...

Now he has admitted so many things, he has no credibility whatsoever. None.

 

[CarterUSM]

A priceless post by the OP, Mr K:

"When all this over it might bet better if I re-register on DS under a different name"

He'll be demanding plastic surgery and a new identity (at taxpayers expense of course) to avoid being recognised (and ridiculed) if this carries on....:roll:

I suspect he is now regretting making such a fuss over this issue and getting the media involved. If he had just contacted Northern, the guard would probably have got a telling off (but no more than that I'd hope), he would have got an apology (and some free travel vouchers or something) and the whole sorry incident would have then been forgotten about. But oh, no, he wanted the fame... at least, he thought he did...

Now he has admitted so many things, he has no credibility whatsoever. None.

I find it hard to argue with that Yorkie. It really was so all very avoidable, and many of the posters suggestions that he hold fire and deal with Northerns customer services when , to me i might add, it seems he had no intention of doing so from the start, smack of a touch of fame seeking. To put it lightly!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thread on ds has now been closed

 

[Greenback]

How ironic that, having started the whole public debate, Mr K is now worried about his username on DS being recognised!

Did he have no thought for the guard's face beign all over the media? Did he not think that the reactions of some people would be to abuse and threaten the guard?

Yorkie is right. What has this circus actually achieved for anyone?

 

[jon0844]

This always happens on DS. It's why that I haven't been engaged in any topic (bar this) for over a year.

People start to get somewhere (I think in due course, the OP may have 'fessed up' and started to tell the truth for once) and then the trolls stir to the point that they can create totally off-topic things (dictionary definitions, what booze they're enjoying, slagging off posters and goading them to say something nasty to them etc) that give them the ability to report the thread to the moderators who - don't have time to read the whole thead - and just close it as non-constructive.

It has happened so many times I really don't know why I bother. Most of the other honest, knowledgeable, contributors have long gone and now it's just people who live a life on the forum talking about X Factor and Big Brother - and treat serious subjects in the same 'reality TV' way.

I'm glad I managed to get one bit of info in at the end though. From what I've been seeing elsewhere, the guard is likely to have a story about a previous incident with him and it will all end up looking very bad for him. He now needs to have all videos removed, get the Daily Mail and others to remove the story and lay low for a bit. He is naive if he thinks that the members who are really only up for a fight give a toss about him, so that will mean he's totally isolated. No charity is going to want him representing them either, given the railway company will actually come out proving just what they can and do offer for disabled passengers.

There have also been other rumours about his crusades against others, but as I don't know anything about that I shouldn't comment too much. However, in my own opinion, he doesn't seem to be a disabled person being discriminated against, he rather seems like a very vindictive person that has, or will, be sidelined purely because of his attitude to life.

I wonder if a spin-off thread will be created in Chatter, as this often happens with the hope that the mods won't notice - but they do once the trolls find it and start the stirring up again. How many forums can any of us say we've been on where individual members that aren't getting their way suggest it's time to lock the thread. What's the ****ing point in having a discussion forum then?!

Also, welcome to anyone that has joined this forum from Digital Spy and has learned as much as I have done since I joined. That is unless you're a troll, but you won't last long - they have sharper moderators here!

 

[CarterUSM]

I can't wait to hear the other side of the story myself! Sooner the better.

 

[Anvil1984]

Also, welcome to anyone that has joined this forum from Digital Spy and has learned as much as I have done since I joined. That is unless you're a troll, but you won't last long - they have sharper moderators here!

Thank you from the oh-so pedantic one, shame its locked now over there but seeing as I've lurked over here for a few years also (being train staff and all) I thought I'd join the fun here. It just became obvious over there that some people though a train is a train, is a train and sometimes things differ occasionally for the best but often sadly for the worse

Just the whole thing has a few anomalies and left me with a few wishes

a) I wish I could understand whichever language he was speaking to his wife so I could translate it for myself

b) I wish the tape accidentally started from the first moment he met the guard and didn't cut off when he started speaking to the Northern station staff

c) I wish I had a copy of the blueprints with measurements for Guide Bridge, the wheelchair model used and the wheelchair ramp (I can measure the latter myself when I get to work)

I have sympathy for both parties, but what we saw was two people in a combustable situation and the end result is sadly messy. Sadly I lost most my sympathy for the disabled bloke when he went to the press and YouTube before the official channels but I realise at the end of the day in an ideal world he shouldnt have this problem but sadly we dont live in an ideal world, I admit the guard didnt seem the most helpful on the video BUT we don't know what happened before so I can't comment ANYTHING could've happened. I await the other side of the tale when it emerges

 

[bnm]

.... so I can't comment....

Rather a large post from someone who can't comment!

 

[Anvil1984]

Yes but not commented on the general behaviour of either party in the clip which quite a lot of people have done, could have easily slagged off either side but without full story you can't really

 

[Flamingo]

Part of the problem is, people just see a video that may have been heavily edited, and read an account from someone who has an agenda to make themselves look like the victim, and then jump in straight away getting angry on other peoples behalf and demanding that the guard to be prosecuted under the DDA, without knowing any of the facts, just an assumption that their own prejudices and history of train spotting must mean that they are right :roll:

A bit more restraint, and some acknowledgement that staff who work on the railway may actually be the professionals and know what they are doing would help some of the armchair experts out there looking like total prats when they mouth off without realising there might be more to a Daily Mail story than meets the eye.

The story that appears to be emerging is that the wheelchair user had been informed on previous occasions that the train (142) was not suitable to alight at his destination, but another train in 12 minutes would be, but he refused to accept this explanation and decided to try and bully his way through. Also he had previously had incidents whilst alighting at the same station.

I wonder if all the people that posted on various forums will have the grace to acknowledge they were wrong, or will they say it's a cover-up, a wheelchair user would never behave in such a manner.

(One forum I belong to will not allow Daily Mail stories to be put in the "News and Current Affairs" forum, but insists on them going in the "Rumour and Chat" section)

 

[ukrob]

Part of the problem is, people just see a video that may have been heavily edited, and read an account from someone who has an agenda to make themselves look like the victim,

No, no, that is not part of the problem. That IS the problem!

 

[tonyaran]

First of all I would like to introduce myself as the wheelchair user about whom this thread is about. I have decided to join this forum after reading this thread and believe there are a few misunderstanding that I could clear up if if possible.

I understand that most of you are favourable towards the Northern Rail staff, and quite rightly as this is a Rail forum, but as this is a free country (and the Internet is free sometimes) I hope you can try to understand the situation from my end also.

Rather than me giving a detailed description of what happened on that evening of the incident, I will leave that be and wait for any questions that you have, which should be more constructive than me spending time just writing.

So I invite you to ask me reasonable qustions which I will endeavor to answer as best and truthfully as I can.

 

[yorkie]

Q1) When you first requested assistance (before the video starts, I believe - can you confirm?), to whom was that request made, and what reason(s) were given for refusal? (specifically, was the issue of train type and the issue of the platform at Guide Bridge mentioned)

Q2) When refusal was given, what alternative(s) were offered (if applicable)? If an alternative was offered, what was the extent of delay (e.g. when was the next train that could carry you)

Q3) Do you feel it would have been more constructive for you to contact Northern directly and not go to the media or make the video publicly available - at least until Northern had been given sufficient opportunity to resolve the matter to your satisfaction?

 

[EM2]

My main question (as someone employed to do this work at another station) is 'Why did you not call ahead to Manchester Piccadilly to ask for assistance on that particular service (if that was the train you wanted to catch) or on what services assistance would be available?'

 

[tonyaran]

Q1) When you first requested assistance (before the video starts, I believe - can you confirm?), to whom was that request made, and what reason(s) were given for refusal? (specifically, was the issue of train type and the issue of the platform at Guide Bridge mentioned)

I usually seek out platform staff for assitance but when there are non visible I ask the guard to help out. Which I tried to do. I made my way to the guard's compartment at the back of the train. I could not see the guard. A passenger (a young male) saw me and got up and went to alert the guard, who was in his small compartment. The guard noticed the passenger, came out, stood at the top of the two-steps, and made a waving cross sign with his arms below his wait. At the same time he said 'No'. I asked 'Why', And he looked at his wrist-watch and said 'You'll have to get the next one'. And he turned back into the carraige and towards his compartment. At this moment he might have been saying something but he wasn't directly facing me or making eye contact with me. In fact his back was towards me and he was moving towards his compartment.

Q2) When refusal was given, what alternative(s) were offered (if applicable)? If an alternative was offered, what was the extent of delay (e.g. when was the next train that could carry you)

I tried asking the guard again but he refused to notice me. I then made my way to Customer Services where there was a short que. I asked the man inside the booth if there was anyone who could get me a ramp for Guide Bridge. He lookes bemused and said no-one else is available. I asked if he could radio someone and he said 'The guard should assist you'. I then went back to the guard who still would not acknowledge me and my request and was wandering on the platform doing other stuff. After repeated attempts I took my phone out and started filming. The rest is on the video.

Q3) Do you feel it would have been more constructive for you to contact Northern directly and not go to the media or make the video publicly available - at least until Northern had been given sufficient opportunity to resolve the matter to your satisfaction?

Yes, it would have been more humane to do that but not constructive. I was very upset and angry and my emotions got the better of me and I contacted the media after I had emailed and rung up Northern Rail. Looking at it now, one week from the incident, I believe that I did rush to the media and should have waited for an official repsonse from them. But I did not expect the media to use the video so quickly as they did. But what is done is done.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My main question (as someone employed to do this work at another station) is 'Why did you not call ahead to Manchester Piccadilly to ask for assistance on that particular service (if that was the train you wanted to catch) or on what services assistance would be available?'

I have done that in the past when I have used the train for longer journeys. But using the train virtually every day, travelling between my home to other parts of Manchester, I dont believe I should.

Would an able-bodied person have to call up 24 hours before to book travel on public transport?

And sometimes you are not aware on when you will require the assistance (you are shopping, at dentists etc) and can never stick to strict timing.

Restricting the disabled to certain times for travel is a form of discrimination.

 

[yorkie]

Q4) OK, thanks for that, but when the lady arrived to assist you, did you ask her when the next available train was? When was this train, were you able to board it (if not, why not?) and what was the overall extent of the delay?

If you can reveal the time of the train (also was it a weekday, Saturday or Sunday) I can take a look at the timetable, I would be interested to see that because if there was a train 30 minutes later, it makes your position less reasonable, but if it was the last train of the night I can understand why you would be extremely distressed.

Q5) Also how busy was the train, in your opinion, that you were refused access to?

 

[jimrbrobinson]

Welcome to the forum Mr. Khaliq. I for one hope you will find some of the threads on here both entertaining and informative. I certainly have! As to questions, I have some that I will not ask, as really it is something between you and Northern Rail, and hopefully when you and they have consulted thoroughly on the issues you experienced there will be some sort of statement from you both which will resolve any possible questions. I am presuming here that you are now in some degree of communication with Northern Rail concerning this and their enquiries into what happened. Obviously it is important to all sides to establish the issues involved and work to prevent such a negative travelling experience occurring again in the future. I know you've mentioned using the trains a lot before, so I hope this negative experience won't permanently prevent you for using the rail network enjoyably.

 

[yorkie]

I have done that in the past when I have used the train for longer journeys. But using the train virtually every day, travelling between my home to other parts of Manchester, I dont believe I should.

Would an able-bodied person have to call up 24 hours before to book travel on public transport?

And sometimes you are not aware on when you will require the assistance (you are shopping, at dentists etc) and can never stick to strict timing.

Restricting the disabled to certain times for travel is a form of discrimination.

To be fair to EM2, he didn't specify '24 hours'; a call could potentially be made as soon as you realised that you were on your way to the station. I accept this may not always be possible. Without getting into the issue of whether or not you 'should' do this...

Q6) do you accept that if you do not book ahead, if many other passengers already board a train before you get there and if the train is full at the point where you arrive, you won't be able to travel, and do you accept that if you do not book ahead, there is no way to ensure that a train of an 'accessible' type is allocated to that service, and that as a result an alternative of a later train, or alternative transport e.g. a taxi may have to be offered?

 

[EM2]

I have done that in the past when I have used the train for longer journeys. But using the train virtually every day, travelling between my home to other parts of Manchester, I dont believe I should.

Would an able-bodied person have to call up 24 hours before to book travel on public transport?

And sometimes you are not aware on when you will require the assistance (you are shopping, at dentists etc) and can never stick to strict timing.

Restricting the disabled to certain times for travel is a form of discrimination.

I have a number of customers at my station who travel every day, and make a booking for when they want to travel. I have a number of other customers, who don't travel every day but travel frequently, who can arrive at any time. They call ahead because it makes things easier for everybody. Generally, they say something like 'I'm about ten minutes away, I'm hoping to get the xx.xx train. Can someone meet me at the entrance with a wheelchair/get a ramp ready for that train/assist me from the entrance?'
Nobody is restricting disabled customers from travelling at certain times. However, sometimes, with the best will in the world their request cannot be acommodated. For example, on one of the lines my station serves there are a number of stations that have platforms shorter than many of the trains, so customers must travel in the front four coaches of a train. Sometimes, unfortunately, the wheelchair space on a train is in coach number five. We explain the situation and they are reasonable, accept that it's not safe for them to travel on that train and wait for the next one.

 

[jon0844]

Q4) OK, thanks for that, but when the lady arrived to assist you, did you ask her when the next available train was? When was this train, were you able to board it (if not, why not?) and what was the overall extent of the delay?

The next train was 12 minutes. That's already been confirmed, and can be seen by looking at the timetable.

If it was a case of the guard simply refusing to take the time to deploy the ramp because the next one would be easier (and he wouldn't have to do it) then it would be quite outrageous.

However, the issue seems to be that you can't use a ramp on THAT particular train at Guide Bridge - so that train couldn't be used, even for all the time in the world.

I am surprised the train company didn't offer a free taxi, although a train in 12 minutes would presumably beat a taxi easily - just GETTING the taxi could have taken longer than that.

 

[yorkie]

The next train was 12 minutes. That's already been confirmed, and can be seen by looking at the timetable..

In that case, it does present rather more questions...

Did the guard inform the passenger the next train was in 12 minutes time? If the answer is yes, then I personally am of the view that the passengers actions could be seen as unreasonable.

If the guard did not specify when the next one was, did the passenger attempt to obtain this information?

Was the information freely available?

At what point did the customer discover the delay was only 12 minutes?

Why was the reaction so extreme, given a mere 12 minute delay?

 

[tonyaran]

Q4) OK, thanks for that, but when the lady arrived to assist you, did you ask her when the next available train was? When was this train, were you able to board it (if not, why not?) and what was the overall extent of the delay?

I stopped filming as soon as the lady approached me as I felt apologetic to continue filmimg someone who had atleast tried to assist me. The lady asked me what the matter was. I said 'he is refusing to get me a ramp'. She asked, 'who is?'. I said the guard. She looked at the guard, who was by now in the train with the train setting of. She looked back at me and said 'I dont know why he has done that and I will get you on the next train'. The guy with the walkie-talkie then interrupted us and said 'The Police have been informed as you been recording illegaly'. He kept inteferring in me and the lady's conversation so I walked away from both saying 'I am putting in a complaint'. I went to Customer Services, half way, and stopped to let my wife and daughter catch up. The lady approached me and said Customer Services cant help you with complaints and she will get me a form. She then went and stood somewhere else doing nothing. The walkie-talkie guy then shouted from behind, 'You cant leave the station. Police have been informed and are coming to get your phone'. I then got worried and left the station quickly.

If you can reveal the time of the train (also was it a weekday, Saturday or Sunday) I can take a look at the timetable, I would be interested to see that because if there was a train 30 minutes later, it makes your position less reasonable, but if it was the last train of the night I can understand why you would be extremely distressed.

It was Saturday 21st August 2010 at 20:36hrs - the train time to depart. The next train was 20:48. And one after that 21:38. I think. During peak times, and during the day I think there are 3 trains for stopping at Guide Bridge every hour.

I would have travelled on the next train if I had been given a reason as to why I could not travel on the one about to depart now.

Q5) Also how busy was the train, in your opinion, that you were refused access to?

The train was less than half-full but more passengers got on while the incident was taking place.

Welcome to the forum Mr. Khaliq. I for one hope you will find some of the threads on here both entertaining and informative. I certainly have! As to questions, I have some that I will not ask, as really it is something between you and Northern Rail, and hopefully when you and they have consulted thoroughly on the issues you experienced there will be some sort of statement from you both which will resolve any possible questions. I am presuming here that you are now in some degree of communication with Northern Rail concerning this and their enquiries into what happened. Obviously it is important to all sides to establish the issues involved and work to prevent such a negative travelling experience occurring again in the future. I know you've mentioned using the trains a lot before, so I hope this negative experience won't permanently prevent you for using the rail network enjoyably.

You might be interested in the following link - which is something I found today - where someone has allegedly manage to get some comments from Northern Rail on this issue.

http://www.wheelchairpride.com/2010/08/wheelchair-discrimination-caught-on.html