Sweden introduces a rule of 8

[Nicholas43]

Sweden has announced an enforceable restriction of gatherings. Prime Minister Stejan Löfven said

"We can't regulate every social gathering" but urged people to follow the new limit at all kinds of events. "There should not be social situations with more than eight people even if they are not formally affected by the law. This is the new norm for the whole society, for all of Sweden. Don't go to the gym. Don't go to the library. Don't have dinners. Don't have parties. Cancel."

Source: the local .

 

[Puffing Devil]

Interesting - the wheels seem to have fallen off the Swedish approach, the love child of many on this forum.

You can almost see the tumbleweed in this thread.

 

[brad465]

Interesting - the wheels seem to have fallen off the Swedish approach, the love child of many on this forum.

You can almost see the tumbleweed in this thread.

Depends how much further they go from here, if at all, and in particular if they learn the lesson they admitted to of not protecting care homes properly (the source of many of their first wave deaths, where peak confirmed infections was after the death peak earlier this year). The picture isn't exactly rosy anywhere in Europe; all the countries who locked down are having to do so again despite having a similar infection pattern to Sweden. Germany also had a good handling of it up to this wave with an effective test and trace programme, but even they have had infections rocket and conceded to the plan now not being very effective.

I think if anything this shows just how difficult it actually is to control this particular virus, the exception being remote island nations who have to have very strict border controls in place.

 

[yorkie]

Interesting - the wheels seem to have fallen off the Swedish approach, the love child of many on this forum.

What an odd post.

I don't think many people have a problem with gatherings being limited to eight people.

Actual lockdowns are a completely different story.

You can almost see the tumbleweed in this thread.

What is there to discuss?

 

[Philip Elliott]

Depends how much further they go from here, if at all, and in particular if they learn the lesson they admitted to of not protecting care homes properly (the source of many of their first wave deaths, where peak confirmed infections was after the death peak earlier this year). The picture isn't exactly rosy anywhere in Europe; all the countries who locked down are having to do so again despite having a similar infection pattern to Sweden. Germany also had a good handling of it up to this wave with an effective test and trace programme, but even they have had infections rocket and conceded to the plan now not being very effective.

I think if anything this shows just how difficult it actually is to control this particular virus, the exception being remote island nations who have to have very strict border controls in place.

Care homes deaths in Sweden were about 1000 out of 6000 total - a smaller proportion than many other countries (in Australia it is about 75%).

 

[yorkie]

Care homes deaths in Sweden were about 1000 out of 6000 total - a smaller proportion than many other countries (in Australia it is about 75%).

Do you have a source for this claim pleasee?

From 23 July 2020:

https://ltccovid.org/2020/07/23/new-country-report-the-covid-19-long-term-care-situation-in-sweden/

In mid-July, more than 5,500 individuals had died from the infection...

...Of those who have died of COVID-19, 47 per cent were care home residents and 25 per cent were homecare users, corresponding to 3.1 per cent of all care home residents and 0.8 per cent of all homecare users....

 

[lkpridgeon]

It'll be interesting to see how the situation develops over there. What I'd like to see is are they observing less flu cases this year as consequence and the excess death figure.

Personally a gathering of 8 is more tenable for me than the 6 person limit we had/have as it allows for two families of 4. Overall they still seem to be keeping restrictions sensible and only asking in most cases from what I can tell.

So far as I see it their approach seems to have been the most moderate and least damaging. And could've been a viable path for us back in March.

 

[DustyBin]

Interesting - the wheels seem to have fallen off the Swedish approach, the love child of many on this forum.

You can almost see the tumbleweed in this thread.

So infections and deaths from what now looks to be a seasonal illness are increasing in November? Who would believe it! If only they’d followed the rest of Europe in the first place they’d not be in this situation.... Oh, hang on....

If you’ll excuse my slightly sarcastic tone above, may I ask how you suggest we deal with the virus?

 

[yorkie]

Does anyone have anything on the topic of
Sweden introducing a risk of eight?

We already have threads to discuss all the other stuff.

 

[yorksrob]

Interesting - the wheels seem to have fallen off the Swedish approach, the love child of many on this forum.

You can almost see the tumbleweed in this thread.

How do you calculate that ?

The Rule of 8 still seems a lot less onerous than our "rule of none".

Coupled to that, they have had a year of much less damaging restrictions than us, half the economic damage of us.

In truth, given that Coronavirus is a seasonal respiratory condition, it's not surprising that they should see some level of tightening in winter. However their approach still seems to be much more successful than ours (in spite of the desperation in some quarters to trash it).

The only wheels that seem to be falling off are those of arbitrary lockdowns as the oracles of SAGE tacitly admit that when we come out of lockdown, we'll probably be forced into a slightly different form of lockdown.

 

[jtuk]

Funny how the OP says "enforceable" when the quote indicates nothing of the sort

 

[OxtedL]

You can almost see the tumbleweed in this thread.

I too had noticed this, you aren't alone.

 

[DustyBin]

I too had noticed this, you aren't alone.

But there isn’t really much to discuss is there? Sweden is seeing a slightly belated seasonal increase in cases and deaths so has asked that people don’t gather in groups of more than eight. This doesn’t exactly nullify the argument that their approach was/is better. We (in England) are currently in lockdown remember....

 

[Domh245]

Also noticeable by it's absence is any comments (or threads) around the recent decision to require compulsory masks on public transport in Auckland over 5 cases, or the decision to put the state of South Australia into lockdown over 36 community cases. No approach is "right" and gloating over changes in one countries approach doesn't mean that your favoured approach suddenly becomes the best one. I know I'd rather Sweden's approach than that of our antipodean friends

(with apologies to mods for taking this more off topic)

 

[big_rig]

But there isn’t really much to discuss is there? Sweden is seeing a slightly belated seasonal increase in cases and deaths so has asked that people don’t gather in groups of more than eight. This doesn’t exactly nullify the argument that their approach was/is better. We (in England) are currently in lockdown remember....

Quite. They got to enjoy a much nicer spring and summer than we did. Even if they decided tomorrow to follow ‘the science’ and do a month of banning everything like we are here, they’ve still had a better year than everybody else.

It’s also very difficult to figure out what they are actually doing differently. All the news articles on this include one sentence from the PM and nothing else.

They are also no doubt as you note aware that we are going into something called ‘winter’ and that viruses tend to spread more then than during the warmest months of the year. Sensibly acknowledging this fact of nature is something we’d do well to do here, instead of trying to blame increases in cases on perceived breaches of ‘the guidelines’ as opposed to the temperature being 10-15c or so lower.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

So infections and deaths from what now looks to be a seasonal illness are increasing in November? Who would believe it! If only they’d followed the rest of Europe in the first place they’d not be in this situation.... Oh, hang on....

If you’ll excuse my slightly sarcastic tone above, may I ask how you suggest we deal with the virus?

This Canadian doctor and owner of a vaccine-producing company has some ideas that politicians around the world might not want to hear

He makes a good case for focussing our efforts on protecting the most vulnerable and ceasing the ‘ridiculous’ policies of lockdowns, which cause far more damage (medical and financial) than the virus.
Oh, and for those in favour of masks, listen in particular from about 2m20s...

 

[scarby]

As someone in Sweden, I can echo the comments that there isn't really anything to discuss. Yes, the limit on events has been cut from 50 to 8, but there have been so few of these anyway, it really doesn't make a noticeable difference to day-to-day life.

And yes, day-to-day activities here remain very straightforward and without tin-foil hat whatiffery. I can go to the pub (a big plus) with a hassle-free experience, shopping is normal, I took the cat to the vet yesterday and it was a completely normal experience, apart from a screen at the reception it could have been pre-March. Long-distance train travel throughout this period has continued to be easy, just a reduction in the number of trains running. If I had been in a coma since March and only woke up this week then I would not immediately know anything was amiss - maybe with the screens at shop checkouts I might think it was a bad 'flu year or something.

 

[Bikeman78]

As someone in Sweden, I can echo the comments that there isn't really anything to discuss. Yes, the limit on events has been cut from 50 to 8, but there have been so few of these anyway, it really doesn't make a noticeable difference to day-to-day life.

And yes, day-to-day activities here remain very straightforward and without tin-foil hat whatiffery. I can go to the pub (a big plus) with a hassle-free experience, shopping is normal, I took the cat to the vet yesterday and it was a completely normal experience, apart from a screen at the reception it could have been pre-March. Long-distance train travel throughout this period has continued to be easy, just a reduction in the number of trains running. If I had been in a coma since March and only woke up this week then I would not immediately know anything was amiss - maybe with the screens at shop checkouts I might think it was a bad 'flu year or something.

Thanks for the insight into the reality of the situation.

 

[VauxhallandI]

As someone in Sweden, I can echo the comments that there isn't really anything to discuss. Yes, the limit on events has been cut from 50 to 8, but there have been so few of these anyway, it really doesn't make a noticeable difference to day-to-day life.

And yes, day-to-day activities here remain very straightforward and without tin-foil hat whatiffery. I can go to the pub (a big plus) with a hassle-free experience, shopping is normal, I took the cat to the vet yesterday and it was a completely normal experience, apart from a screen at the reception it could have been pre-March. Long-distance train travel throughout this period has continued to be easy, just a reduction in the number of trains running. If I had been in a coma since March and only woke up this week then I would not immediately know anything was amiss - maybe with the screens at shop checkouts I might think it was a bad 'flu year or something.

Thank you for the insight, there seems to be tumbleweed in response

How anyone can use this rule of 8 to somehow say Sweden were wrong to have a near to a normal 2020 as anyone on the planet leaves me somewhat bemused.

 

[yorkie]

As someone in Sweden, I can echo the comments that there isn't really anything to discuss. Yes, the limit on events has been cut from 50 to 8, but there have been so few of these anyway, it really doesn't make a noticeable difference to day-to-day life.

And yes, day-to-day activities here remain very straightforward and without tin-foil hat whatiffery. I can go to the pub (a big plus) with a hassle-free experience, shopping is normal, I took the cat to the vet yesterday and it was a completely normal experience, apart from a screen at the reception it could have been pre-March. Long-distance train travel throughout this period has continued to be easy, just a reduction in the number of trains running. If I had been in a coma since March and only woke up this week then I would not immediately know anything was amiss - maybe with the screens at shop checkouts I might think it was a bad 'flu year or something.

This was my recent experience of visiting Sweden with other forum members a few weeks ago. I am very glad I went, for many reasons, not at least being able to debunk ludicrous false claims with first-hand personal experience.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This was my recent experience of visiting Sweden with other forum members a few weeks ago. I am very glad I went, for many reasons, not at least being able to debunk ludicrous false claims with first-hand personal experience.

Which are what?

Aside from a spurious claim about care home deaths who stated the percentage was lower than being suggested, I'm not certain what is being suggested. That Sweden haven't done something markedly different to the rest of the world?

 

[scarby]

This was my recent experience of visiting Sweden with other forum members a few weeks ago. I am very glad I went,for many reasons, not at least being able to debunk ludicrous false claims with first-hand personal experience.

Most importantly, did you manage to cop any loco-haulage?!

 

[brad465]

Sweden appears to have peaked/be peaking in this wave/spike now, so if a downward trend is visible for the next 4 weeks before their review they will have good grounds to relax their rule of 8 after:


They also appear to have a much better record of keeping deaths down this time so far:

 

[Bantamzen]

One thing that those critical of Sweden's approach seem to overlook is just how the trends there compare to countries that have imposed much stricter restrictions. According to some, including our own beloved SAGE, Sweden should have exponential growth in infections yet the data does not point to that. In fact they seem to be ahead of the curve in many respects. Its almost as if the virus cares not one jot about lockdowns and masks.

 

[DustyBin]

One thing that those critical of Sweden's approach seem to overlook is just how the trends there compare to countries that have imposed much stricter restrictions. According to some, including our own beloved SAGE, Sweden should have exponential growth in infections yet the data does not point to that. In fact they seem to be ahead of the curve in many respects. Its almost as if the virus cares not one jot about lockdowns and masks.

Correct. How anybody can look at the data and conclude that ‘the wheels have fallen off’ Sweden’s approach is beyond me!

 

[scarby]

It's almost as if the virus cares not one jot about lockdowns and masks.

Yes.

Also bear in mind that harsher measures in Europe have been introduced some time after the virus spread widely. Quite simply, it was too late to have any effect. Then when the virus curbs itself, they say "Well, the restrictions worked". Except that they didn't - it would have fallen off anyway.