My ideas for HS2 (if Eastern Leg isn’t built)

[Bald Rick]

A deep underground terminus station would be very, very large and consequently very, very expensive. It would also end up demolishing almost as much property above ground as an above ground station would need, due to the access required to build it, and of course to build the access for passengers and all the other services a below ground station of that size would need. (How do you get all the stock in for M&S for example, or all the rubbish out?).

Putting my transport planning hat back on for a moment - and I must stress this is me thinking and no work has been done on this - it would need to be somewhere with exceptional onward transport options (that have capacity to deal with the flows) and also somewhere in central London that is relatively close to a high traffic generator to encourage walking.

For me that leaves two options:

1) Expand Kings Cross eastwards by bulldozing the other side of York Road up to the Regents Canal. Similar principle to Euston. You could, just, squeeze in another 6 platforms and be clear of the Battlebridge Basin. Repurpose platforms 0-1 at the existing station to head to the high speed line. Tunnel from there to somewhere near M25 J26.

2) Smithfield market. Perfect size. On Thameslink and Crossrail. Walking distance to the city. Approach from NE by bulldozing parts of the Barbican Estate, into tunnel there to same place near M25.


Smithfield probably better from a transport planning perspective, and easier for engineering, Kings Cross easier for getting consent to build it. But that’s ‘easier’ in the same way that it’s easier to cut your arm off with a chainsaw than an axe. There would be less resistance, but it would still bloody hurt.

 

[ABB125]

A deep underground terminus station would be very, very large and consequently very, very expensive. It would also end up demolishing almost as much property above ground as an above ground station would need, due to the access required to build it, and of course to build the access for passengers and all the other services a below ground station of that size would need. (How do you get all the stock in for M&S for example, or all the rubbish out?).

Putting my transport planning hat back on for a moment - and I must stress this is me thinking and no work has been done on this - it would need to be somewhere with exceptional onward transport options (that have capacity to deal with the flows) and also somewhere in central London that is relatively close to a high traffic generator to encourage walking.

For me that leaves two options:

1) Expand Kings Cross eastwards by bulldozing the other side of York Road up to the Regents Canal. Similar principle to Euston. You could, just, squeeze in another 6 platforms and be clear of the Battlebridge Basin. Repurpose platforms 0-1 at the existing station to head to the high speed line. Tunnel from there to somewhere near M25 J26.

2) Smithfield market. Perfect size. On Thameslink and Crossrail. Walking distance to the city. Approach from NE by bulldozing parts of the Barbican Estate, into tunnel there to same place near M25.


Smithfield probably better from a transport planning perspective, and easier for engineering, Kings Cross easier for getting consent to build it. But that’s ‘easier’ in the same way that it’s easier to cut your arm off with a chainsaw than an axe. There would be less resistance, but it would still bloody hurt.

Interesting, thanks very much. I'm not too familiar with London in a "touristy" sense so places like Smithfield market mean pretty much nothing to me!

 

[Bald Rick]

Interesting, thanks very much. I'm not too familiar with London in a "touristy" sense so places like Smithfield market mean pretty much nothing to me!

Look it up, and you’ll see the issue. A 1000 year old meat market, rebuilt most recently in the 1860s, Grade 2 listed, next to London’s oldest surviving church, with MI6s back up location beneath*

Absolutely no chance of it being demolished to make a station. But it is the perfect size, in an excellent location, pointing roughly the right way.

*well it was in Skyfall.

 

[ABB125]

Look it up, and you’ll see the issue. A 1000 year old meat market, rebuilt most recently in the 1860s, Grade 2 listed, next to London’s oldest surviving church, with MI6s back up location beneath*

Absolutely no chance of it being demolished to make a station. But it is the perfect size, in an excellent location, pointing roughly the right way.

*well it was in Skyfall.

And it even looks like a station from the air! Fascinating history.
Would the former railway land north of King's Cross have been suitable, had it not been sold? There seems to be enough space, but onward transport links aren't particularly good. East of King's Cross looks fairly suitably located, although presumably York Way would have to be moved (eastwards?). There appears to be 500m of length between Euston Road and Regent's Canal, so this would presumably have to be a slightly submerged station (as surely the new tracks would go under Regent's Canal?).

<silly idea>Why not drain a big box in the middle of the River Thames, dig out a new station and then re-flood the river above? The river's approaching 250m wide next to the Houses of Parliament, and facing north-south, so there's plenty of space! Plus, MPs could get the train directly to the office - saving on the cost of a taxi! You could also have underground passages to Waterloo, Charing Cross and Westminster for onward transport. I really can't think of any issues with this plan...</silly idea>

 

[Bald Rick]

And it even looks like a station from the air! Fascinating history.
Would the former railway land north of King's Cross have been suitable, had it not been sold? There seems to be enough space, but onward transport links aren't particularly good. East of King's Cross looks fairly suitably located, although presumably York Way would have to be moved (eastwards?). There appears to be 500m of length between Euston Road and Regent's Canal, so this would presumably have to be a slightly submerged station (as surely the new tracks would go under Regent's Canal?).

You sum it up well. It’s probably not quite long enough, and onward transport is a pig.

For east of KX, York Way would have to go, and yes, the tracks would go under the canal, just like those that leave King’s Cross today . But it’s not a sub surface station as such; the ground level rises from Euston Road to the north. The big jobs would be building the wide station throat under the canal, finding somewhere to receive the inbound TBMs, keeping clear of the Picc line and Camden sewer, and building a concourse that could accommodate the passenger demand expected. It would make Euston look easy.

 

[ABB125]

You sum it up well. It’s probably not quite long enough, and onward transport is a pig.

For east of KX, York Way would have to go, and yes, the tracks would go under the canal, just like those that leave King’s Cross today . But it’s not a sub surface station as such; the ground level rises from Euston Road to the north. The big jobs would be building the wide station throat under the canal, finding somewhere to receive the inbound TBMs, keeping clear of the Picc line and Camden sewer, and building a concourse that could accommodate the passenger demand expected. It would make Euston look easy.

So very unlikely then! Although, if HS2 is very successful, the government may well be willing to spend a bit extra on this new eastern line's London terminus, so who knows?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

So very unlikely then! Although, if HS2 is very successful, the government may well be willing to spend a bit extra on this new eastern line's London terminus, so who knows?

Yes, unlikely. ECML and MML improvments seem to be the way forward. Although, I wonder if there is any improvments that can be made to XC if Phase 2 does not open.

 

[ABB125]

Yes, unlikely. ECML and MML improvments seem to be the way forward. Although, I wonder if there is any improvments that can be made to XC if Phase 2 does not open.

The only possible way to speed up XC services that I can think of is to send them via Manchester over HS2 and whatever Northern upgrades get built. Though I'm not sure how much time this would save.
Far better to build the eastern leg!

 

[gg1]

I suppose if the eastern leg was cut, it might come back as a HS4 line from Leeds straight to London via Cambridge/Stansted-at some point.

If a completely separate HS line was built from London to Leeds the M1 corridor would be a far more logical route, serving MK, Northampton, the East Midlands and Sheffield. A route via Cambridge would be longer and would serve a much smaller population.

 

[The Planner]

If a completely separate HS line was built from London to Leeds the M1 corridor would be a far more logical route, serving MK, Northampton, the East Midlands and Sheffield. A route via Cambridge would be longer and would serve a much smaller population.

Considering phase 1 deals with MK and Northampton I am not sure it would, both are too close to London to actually make high speed a possibility.

 

[Roast Veg]

Since a new HS line from London seems pretty much out of the question, my speculation follows:

Let's say the ECML got the lion's share of the upgrade: power upgrades, ECTS, closer headways, modest linespeed improvements, and some junction remodelling at Grantham and either Retford or Doncaster. Nottingham and Sheffield could have new fast services off of the ECML, and Leeds see their services sped up on a far smaller scale than with HS2 East. Leicester is no better or worse off than under HS2 East, and Derby loses out badly.

Weak Assumptions:

• It's possible to add another 2tph to the ECML south of Leeds (very costly)
• Journey times (including appropriate stops en route on the ECML) from LDS, NOT, and SHF are all able to be improved on their current timings with ECML upgrades alone (highly doubtful)
• Sheffield can take another 1tph from the Northeast or East, and Nottingham can take 1tph from the East (highly doubtful)
• Stock clearances and availability (non issue)

The MML gets everything it was already due and little else. The missing connectivity to Birmingham is handled with any and all spare capacity between Derby and Tamworth, then onto a tiny stretch of HS2 into Curzon Street, assuming New Street can't take it.

Pretty bleak for a best case scenario!

 

[gg1]

Considering phase 1 deals with MK and Northampton I am not sure it would, both are too close to London to actually make high speed a possibility.

For MK and Northampton I was thinking more about links north, at present rail is a very slow unappealing option if you're travelling between there and the East Midlands, Yorkshire or the North East.

Even if you ignore those two the combined population of the Leicester, Derby and Nottingham conurbations is (according to wikipedia) around 1.5 million then another 680,000 for Sheffield, compared to 158,000 for Cambridge. The extra stops would slow down the service but this would be partially compensated for by the fact the route mileage via Cambridge is greater than a M1 shadowing route, even more so if you went for a London>Cambridge>Sheffield>Leeds route. I would propose a skip stop service pattern with each service calling at 2 of the 4 intermediate stations between Leeds and London. There wouldn't be the need for as many services as HS2 anyway so there should be more leeway in pathing.

Having said that it's extremely unlikely either route or variation thereof will be built in the foreseeable future (if at all) so it's largely a moot point.

 

[Purple Orange]

A second high speed line in to London would only ever make sense if the eastern branch was already built and all lines were at capacity. The only reason HS2 makes sense is due to capacity constraints, therefore if the name of th3 game is to free up capacity on the MML and ECML, it will always be cheaper to actually build the eastern branch that would be feeding in to a rebuilt Euston station, which wouldbethe only London terminus that had the available capacity.

But, if the eastern branch is canned, then I would say electrify the MML entirely, Derby-Birmingham-Bristol and Coventry-Reading-Southampton. I am assuming York-Manchester would also be electrified regardless.

 

[Halifaxlad]

As an alternative to the Eastern leg, how about a more Southernly connection between HS2 and the ECML ?

It could follow mostly the old route of the GC (Im not suggesting using the old alignment, just the general route) to Leicester, before continuing on a brand new route adjacent to the A46 to join the ECML at Newark!

I would make provision for a tunnel under Leicester at a later date.



The Orange: HS2
Red: Brackley - Newark via Leicester
Yellow: ECML - Newark to Doncaster

 

[Ianno87]

As an alternative to the Eastern leg, how about a more Southernly connection between HS2 and the ECML ?

It could follow mostly the old route of the GC (Im not suggesting using the old alignment, just the general route) to Leicester, before continuing on a brand new route adjacent to the A46 to join the ECML at Newark!

I would make provision for a tunnel under Leicester at a later date.

View attachment 84717

The Orange: HS2
Red: Brackley - Newark via Leicester
Yellow: ECML - Newark to Doncaster

Compared to 2b that:
-Adds scope (more main line to get further south to joining HS2 "proper")
-Loses benefits (no Birmingham-Leeds etc services)

 

[Purple Orange]

Compared to 2b that:
-Adds scope (more main line to get further south to joining HS2 "proper")
-Loses benefits (no Birmingham-Leeds etc services)

All of these suggestions so far really make the case for building the eastern leg. What other rail route has a ready made terminus with the required capacity?

 

[Halifaxlad]

-Loses benefits (no Birmingham-Leeds etc services)

Actually I've already accounted or that, just didn't want to overly complicate that particular image with all my other suggested spurs and improvements.

Basically for Birmingham I would create a new line adjacent to the M42
to Long Eaton before proceeding along the existing line through Nottingham to Newark where it joins the ECML.

Red = new
Yellow = existing

 

[The Planner]

Lot of railway to basically serve Leicester.

 

[cle]

London to Toton regardless of Eastern leg seems a good aspiration. But even if you could get there in less than an hour, the onward journey would be an issue.

Phase 1 could be a tunnel straight north through London, between MML and ECML - which links onto the MML north of Harpenden and the ECML north of Digswell. Then you've instantly relieved two major bottlenecks by removing 4-5tph MML and 4-5tph ECML from the existing lines.

And you can intensify metro to Welwyn, services to St Albans (inc West Hampstead stops and the new Brent Cross stuff).

 

[AForumUser]

London to Toton regardless of Eastern leg seems a good aspiration. But even if you could get there in less than an hour, the onward journey would be an issue.

Phase 1 could be a tunnel straight north through London, between MML and ECML - which links onto the MML north of Harpenden and the ECML north of Digswell. Then you've instantly relieved two major bottlenecks by removing 4-5tph MML and 4-5tph ECML from the existing lines.

And you can intensify metro to Welwyn, services to St Albans (inc West Hampstead stops and the new Brent Cross stuff).

Tunneling under london would probably approach the cost of the eastern leg of HS2. Not to mention your comminting to 90 extra miles of railway being built to react toton eventually. And for that your removing the link between the Birmingham and the east midlands/yorkshire. If your opposed to going via birmingham for some reason, this could be acheived cheaper by building a line from stevenage to harpenden then to HS2 outside of london.

 

[JonathanH]

There appears to be a story in the Nottingham media that the eastern leg of HS2 could end at East Midlands Parkway. Presumably speculation or posturing?

Concern Toton HS2 station could be scrapped

One council leader said the Government would scrap the Toton station "Over my dead body"

www.nottinghampost.com

Concern Toton HS2 station could be scrapped and line could terminate at East Midlands Parkway

One council leader said the Government would scrap the Toton station "Over my dead body"

Regional leaders have expressed dismay at widespread speculation the Government may terminate HS2 at East Midlands Parkway, rather than continue to Toton and then on to Leeds.

It comes as the National Infrastructure Commission (NIC) is soon expected to publish its recommendations to the Government into the future of the Eastern leg of the line.

Several leading figures in the East Midlands have independently said they have heard speculation that the NIC report would include a recommendation that the Toton station would be scrapped.

Leaders from all political parties have expressed anger at the idea, and voiced support for the Toton station.

In a statement yesterday (Thursday, November 12), the NIC said it was ‘reviewing various rail schemes to illustrate different strategic options for government’.

As recently as July, Prime Minister Boris Johnson said the Nottinghamshire leg of HS2 was ‘definitely’ going to happen.

The controversial HS2 line travels from London to Birmingham before splitting into a Y-shape.

The Western leg then goes to Manchester, while the Eastern leg was due to stop in Nottinghamshire at Toton before heading further north.

But last month, the Government told HS2 Ltd to ‘pause’ planning work on the Eastern leg.

The leader of Nottinghamshire County Council, Kay Cutts, said she had heard the "rumours" about the Toton station being scrapped, but that she would ‘fight’ to keep it.

“I will continue to fight for having it (the station) at Toton. This has been signed up to by everybody across the East Midlands.

“We have a major development there, predicated around housing, and also jobs, and infrastructure and green infrastructure.

“It’s disappointing to hear rumours that somehow the Government is going to save money by taking it out of Nottinghamshire.

“Well I have to tell you, over my dead body.

"This must not be another in a long line of betrayals for the East Midlands.

"For far too long we have been overlooked by successive governments.

"Now it’s our turn, so I will fight with every bone in my body to make sure the HS2 East Midlands Hub comes to Toton and continues beyond to Leeds.

“I honestly believe HS2 is going to be a catalyst for jobs, it’s going to be a catalyst for education, enterprise, training, it’s going to give young people the opportunity that they’ve been denied for such a long time.

“We’ve had no serious investment in Nottinghamshire for about 40 years, and I’m tired of trains stopping at the border and us getting nothing out of it.

"There has been strong cross-party working on this issue. Myself and Councillor Blake, Leader of Leeds City Council, met with the HS2 Minister this week and will be meeting the Secretary of State for Transport next week to continue to make our case loud and clear for a fair share of national investment.”

City Council Leader, Cllr David Mellen, said: “The business case for the HS2 hub at Toton and the benefits it will bring to the local economy is the strongest of the whole project. It beggars belief if Government is seriously thinking about ditching this and the leg to Leeds.

“It would be one of the single most important investments the Government can make to live up to its promises of levelling up the country. The East Midlands received less public funding on transport per head than anywhere else in the country and it’s high time that changed so our region can be allowed to fire on all cylinders, bring much-needed jobs and investment to the area and contribute as fully as we are capable of towards boosting the national economy."

In July, during a visit to Beeston, the Prime Minister said: “There’s no doubt at all that for transport connectivity here in the East Midlands it will make a huge difference, and that Eastern Leg is very important.

“We are certainly going to be doing it.”

This week, the Government has said the act of law which paves the way for the Western and Eastern legs of HS2 would be ‘split’, so there would be one act of law for each leg.

This further fuelled concern that the Eastern leg could be shelved, or watered down.

Lilian Greenwood, Labour MP for Nottingham South, added: “East Midlands Parkway was evaluated as a possible location for a HS2 station back in 2013 and was rejected as unsuitable.

“Since then everyone has been working together to put plans in place to deliver Toton’s HS2 hub, and along with it thousands of new jobs and homes.

“Why the Government would push this option again in spite of the evidence and united political will across the region is completely beyond me.

“The East Midlands has been left on the bottom of the pile so many times before, it must not and cannot happen again.

"We need the full HS2 network to be delivered to its current specification. Our region deserves better than a second class railway network and a second class future.

“This Tory Government can’t be allowed to break their promises."

A spokesman for the National Infrastructure Commission said: “The commission is reviewing various rail schemes to illustrate different strategic options for government that are deliverable, affordable, and that accelerate benefits to the Midlands and the North.

“We will submit and publish our report in due course to inform the government’s Integrated Rail Plan.”

Plans have previously been revealed for a 'garden village' around the HS2 Hub on the edge of Toton, next to the railway sidings, with local politicians describing the HS2 development would as an opportunity for "unlocking growth".

Andrew Pritchard is the director of policy at East Midlands Councils, said: “The East Midlands has suffered from decades of underinvestment, to scale down the Eastern Leg of HS2 now would be hugely damaging to the local economy and demonstrate a lack of ambition from Government at a time when we need it most.

“The HS2 East Midlands hub at Toton isn’t just a railway station, it will be a huge regeneration project on a site larger than London’s Olympic Park."

Chris Hobson is the director of policy and external affairs at East Midlands Chamber, and said: “We haven’t seen the National Infrastructure Commission report and don’t know what it will include, but we’ve said all along that we must build HS2 in full if we’re to realise the full benefits for the East Midlands and indeed the whole country.

“To do anything else would be a huge mistake, critically undermining the entire project, not to mention the huge hole it would blow in Government’s rhetoric around levelling up the economy across the regions.”

 

[Halifaxlad]

Why would any propose to terminate services at East Midlands Parkway ?

Apart from that I don't think it has the capacity to terminate services they're in its existing form at least!

Now I shall wait until the full proposals are unveiled!

 

[AForumUser]

Why would any propose to terminate services at East Midlands Parkway ?

Apart from that I don't think it has the capacity to terminate services they're in its existing form at least!

Now I shall wait until the full proposals are unveiled!

If they wanted to terminate trains there the design can just be changed, its not set in stone. Alternatively they could upgrade the Derby-Nottingham line to allow classic-compatible stock to reach the city centres, whether the cost / politics would be prohibitive i don't know?

 

[adamedwards]

Any new line parallel to MML and ECML would surely need to get north of Luton and Hitchin before joining the existing lines to avoid the most constrained sections of each line. Next problem is where will you build the London terminal?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

If they wanted to terminate trains there the design can just be changed, its not set in stone. Alternatively they could upgrade the Derby-Nottingham line to allow classic-compatible stock to reach the city centres, whether the cost / politics would be prohibitive i don't know?

One assumes this is where the Erewash Valley comes into its own. Services weren’t planned to go to Nottingham or Derby anyway so they can now go straight to Sheffield, and onto Leeds and York.

 

[Roast Veg]

I can't see Toton not getting built if an eastern leg bill makes it through parliament. From there northwards...

 

[HS2isgood]

I'm not even British, so I don't know if that's a crazy idea, but wouldn't demolishing Broadgate, or at least a part of it to use the old Broad Street site for the HS4 station be possible?

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not even British, so I don't know if that's a crazy idea, but wouldn't demolishing Broadgate, or at least a part of it to use the old Broad Street site for the HS4 station be possible?

Possible, but you’d be looking at upwards of £5bn just to buy the place, and then there’s the issue of how you get tracks to it.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Fully prepared to be shot down here, but if we really, really need a second HS line to London, i.e, it's a matter of desperation because HS2 is at bursting point, you could always try and tunnel HS1 back to Waterloo and leave St. Pancras open for HS4 or whatever. I mean, you'd have to have the Waterloo tunnel portal between Vauxhall and Waterloo which would require the demolition of a housing estate and find place for a new depot. But its no less pie in the sky than demolishing half of Clerkenwell to stick in 6 quarter of a mile long platforms and a tunnel portal in Islington.

 

[Roast Veg]

Fully prepared to be shot down here, but if we really, really need a second HS line to London, i.e, it's a matter of desperation because HS2 is at bursting point, you could always try and tunnel HS1 back to Waterloo and leave St. Pancras open for HS4 or whatever. I mean, you'd have to have the Waterloo tunnel portal between Vauxhall and Waterloo which would require the demolition of a housing estate and find place for a new depot. But its no less pie in the sky than demolishing half of Clerkenwell to stick in 6 quarter of a mile long platforms and a tunnel portal in Islington.

It would not be madness to route HS4 northeast out of Stratford. Much less London to route around. Waterloo wouldn't cut it though, and has zero chance of becoming international again.