Overspeed at Dauntsey, 12 August 2020.

[Gloster]

Not necessarily, going back to telegram days (which it does) it was just a convenient short word to use. Telegrams were charged by the word, so a whole series of internal code words arose. "Vice" for 'instead of', "Arrow" for 'send this message forward', etc. They had to be proper dictionary words, and were also selected so similarly-sounding/spelt words were not used, which limited the choice. The old GWR named all their various pw department equipment after fish, which is where "Dogfish" and "Bloater" as wagon types comes from. Less chargeable words than '20 ton pw department ballast wagon'.

Another reason for code words was that before the appearance of a comprehensive railway telephone network messages had to be sent over its own telegraph network using single-needle instruments. As there was a lot of traffic in some areas, it saved a lot of time in sending if code words were used: a dozen word message could be cut down to four or five words.

 

[edwin_m]

I know some don't like me mentioning past ways, but more than 100 years ago the GWR just left the distant on. The signalbox had put out a red flag, and the one after the restriction point showed a green flag. Believe it or not, it worked.

My hunch is the minimalist approach is now gone for because everyone is paranoid about being hit for delay minutes and associated cost nowadays.

A yellow and a green flag convey no information about what speed is applicable. Presumably the drivers had to know the actual speed from their notices. But the issue here is that the speed had to be reduced and made applicable to passenger trains at very short notice, so it couldn't be communicated by that means.

 

[2HAP]

With the train travelling at 125mph, would the driver been able to have got down to 20mph at the start of the restriction if he had realised that the limit applied to his train when he encountered the sign giving the advanced warning of the restriction.

 

[Gloster]

With the train travelling at 125mph, would the driver been able to have got down to 20mph at the start of the restriction if he had realised that the limit applied to his train when he encountered the sign giving the advanced warning of the restriction.

Most definitely, if the board had been placed at the correct distance from the commencement of the restriction.

 

[carriageline]

Absolutely. It’s clear to everyone exactly what it means, and it’s very much an “official” term these days, used in both NR publications and TOC training materials. Whether or not that used to be the case in the dim and distant past is irrelevant.



Pretty sure the broadcasts aren’t linked to the signals in that way? I’ve certainly only ever either heard a broadcast while running on proceed aspects, or been checked down to a red and instructed to call the box.

At least 50% of the time I’ve received GSMR broadcasts they’ve been of such poor quality that they’re impossible to understand, and I’ve ended up calling the box anyway.

They are linked to the Track Circuit (berth triggered) I belive they can also be linked to a specific cell and even triggered to play at specific time intervals too.

they are linked to the TD berths, so (generally) as soon as you pass the previous signal, and your headcode steps, you will then get the message

in some places, you will have to step past the signals overlap, before you get the message. That’s due to the track layout, and some overlaps not having a separate track circuit to the berth track circuit (combined berth + overlap)

It’s a good system, but it’s still in its infancy so it doesn’t always work. For example,’if a driver acknowledged before the message is finished, then the signaller doesn’t receive the acknowledge.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Why was a GSMR emergency broadcast not used to advise of this massive reduction in line speed?

In theory they could have done that automatic thing that rings a driver and gives a recorded message when it passes a particular signal - as many signals out as needed.

 

[theageofthetra]

Regarding ESR/TSR differential speed boards I can think of at least two places where the whole board has blown over or a part has fallen off. No one is reporting it because they've been there for months and only apply to freight. It's not right but that's the reality of the railway.

they are linked to the TD berths, so (generally) as soon as you pass the previous signal, and your headcode steps, you will then get the message

in some places, you will have to step past the signals overlap, before you get the message. That’s due to the track layout, and some overlaps not having a separate track circuit to the berth track circuit (combined berth + overlap)

It’s a good system, but it’s still in its infancy so it doesn’t always work. For example,’if a driver acknowledged before the message is finished, then the signaller doesn’t receive the acknowledge.

Presumably this message would not be received if the GSMR was 'searching for networks' or if the driver hadn't been able to input his head code at the start of the journey.?

 

[Class 170101]

Very surprised about such a large differential between Passenger and Freight to be honest and seems to be asking for trouble.

 

[bengley]

Very surprised about such a large differential between Passenger and Freight to be honest and seems to be asking for trouble.

Very normal.

No point slowing passenger trains down for cyclic top because the train's air suspension deals with it much better and the impact is minimal.

Freight wagons on the other hand can bounce themselves off the track.

 

[edwin_m]

Cyclic top is most dangerous if the cycle time matches the natural frequency of the wagon bouncing on its suspension, which is how it gets created in the first place and then how wagons of the same type and speed are prone to derailment. There are some coaches allowed up to 100mph without air suspension but their natural frequency will be different.

 

[choochoochoo]

Also equally annoying is when they move the limits (start and end points) of an existing ESR without posting it in the Late Notice Case.

Or where they change a signal AWS magnet to activate an AWS warning for an ESR but then don't bother to turn it back to normal working for the signal once the ESR is removed.

It's just laziness/sloppiness.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Signs blowing over / missing and not reported for months is one thing, everyone will recognise that is a problem and not how it’s meant to work.

However reading this I do get the feeling that the visibility and effectiveness of ESR signage is insufficient if drivers are seeing it and not realising it’s applicability, or missing it entirely? IMO the signage & AWS magnets alone should be sufficient to manage the speed of trains and the use of WON entries and Notices etc should be the catch-net / redundancy part of the safety function?

 

[Lockwood]

Since there was the (incorrect) assumption by the driver that the 125/30 had had some of it knocked off, would there be some sense in creating a special sign for when a differential limit is then changed to a single one?

Rather than show a single 20, show a 20/20 that sends a clear "This applies to you as well" message. (And a training note to staff that this new sign form exists)

 

[TheEdge]

Signs blowing over / missing and not reported for months is one thing, everyone will recognise that is a problem and not how it’s meant to work.

However reading this I do get the feeling that the visibility and effectiveness of ESR signage is insufficient if drivers are seeing it and not realising it’s applicability, or missing it entirely? IMO the signage & AWS magnets alone should be sufficient to manage the speed of trains and the use of WON entries and Notices etc should be the catch-net / redundancy part of the safety function?

My opinion of this as a driver is that ESRs and AWS are massively overused which somewhat negates their impact.

ESRs are left up for weeks if not months as ESRs sometimes are which obviously means you get used to it and stop paying attention to them and then suddenly they can change by their nature. I can think of 3 I drive past that are already several weeks old. If they got promptly converted to TSRs or get removed then the impact of a flashing indicator and a horn would be much increased when they are used.

As for AWS its used absolutely everywhere and on single lines often left unsuppressed which again, means it looses its impact. I drive a route where I reckon for every 3 "real" AWS warnings I'm cancelling 2 ones I need to disregard. So, again, you get used to hearing that horn, hitting the button, ignoring it and carrying on. One of the ESRs from above is laid out as the advance warning magnet for the ESR, warning for the ESR then, after I've cancelled those two for the ESR is the third one that you just cancel in quick succession, then suddenly realise that one applied to the yellow signal you just sailed past.

Tldr: ESR, AWS (and other systems) are overused and loose their impact.

 

[jamesst]

Very normal.

No point slowing passenger trains down for cyclic top because the train's air suspension deals with it much better and the impact is minimal.

Freight wagons on the other hand can bounce themselves off the track.

Apologies if its already mentioned but ive wondered for a while, what is actually meant by cyclic top?

 

[GB]

Basically a series of dips on one or both rails that cause trains to bounce. The below video shows a good example.

Edit https://safety.networkrail.co.uk/jargon-buster/cyclic-top/

Cyclic Top occurs when a dip in a rail causes the suspension of a vehicle passing over it to bounce. The track at the end of the bounce then receives an impact loading that can create a second rail dip and, as that second dip deteriorates with successive impacts, trains will then bounce a second time, creating a third dip. After time a sequence of dips can be created which will, depending on the suspension characteristcs of the trains using the line, cause each successive bounce to increase to the point where the vehicle will derail. This very much depends on the “natural resonance frequency” of the vehicles. As the vehicles most susceptable to this are freight wagons of various types, the extra damping on passenger suspension tending to act against this, a speed limit of 30mph is placed on known cyclic top faults for freight trains to prevent the bouncing building up to the point of derailment and also to reduce the rate at which the track is deteriorating. The fault then is recorded for rectification within a timescale that depends on the fault magnitude, with severe faults being repaired within 36 hours