Driver training

[Ste-s]

am looking at a career change and was wondering if anyone knows if I can do the driver psychometric test privately

 

[SlideintomyTMs]

Nope, not too my knowledge, fortunately people can’t buy there way into a seat...

 

[Intermodal]

Nope, not too my knowledge, fortunately people can’t buy there way into a seat... though I won’t go as far to say that drivers are always recruited purely on merit

There are at least three organisations that do/have offered it privately.

Train Driver Psychometrics - Railway Competence Group

RCG offer Train Driver Psychometric amongst other ability based occupational testing.

www.railwaycompetencegroup.co.uk

Railway Competence Group - Psychometric testing

Providers of Train Driver Psychometric testing and End-point assessment for the Train Driver apprenticeship standard. Private booking available

www.traindriving.co.uk

DB Cargo at Doncaster also offer it sporadically when they have places, which is not often.

Whether sitting the same assessment as quite literally every other driver and needing to pass it is "buying your way into the seat" or not is quite debatable!

 

[Dieseldriver]

Nope, not too my knowledge, fortunately people can’t buy there way into a seat... though I won’t go as far to say that drivers are always recruited purely on merit

I wouldn't say it's buying your way into the seat. The psychometric assessment literally just assesses your suitability to be accepted onto the training course. If you pay to do the psychometrics and pass, well you were suitable for the Drivers course anyway.

 

[Driver2B]

There are at least three organisations that do/have offered it privately.

Train Driver Psychometrics - Railway Competence Group

RCG offer Train Driver Psychometric amongst other ability based occupational testing.

www.railwaycompetencegroup.co.uk

Railway Competence Group - Psychometric testing

Providers of Train Driver Psychometric testing and End-point assessment for the Train Driver apprenticeship standard. Private booking available

www.traindriving.co.uk

DB Cargo at Doncaster also offer it sporadically when they have places, which is not often.

Whether sitting the same assessment as quite literally every other driver and needing to pass it is "buying your way into the seat" or not is quite debatable!

RailwayCompetenceGroup.co.uk and TrainDriving.co.uk are both websites belonging to the Rail Competence Group.

 

[SlideintomyTMs]

Well you learn something new everyday!

Though I can’t see the function of it other then too try and buy yourself in by making yourself a more attractive candidate unless I am missing some other function?

 

[Sirgerbil]

Why would you pay for it out of your own pocket when every TOC is going to put you through it anyways?

They won’t be “wow’d” by the fact you’ve paid privately and if you unfortunately fail you’ve just paid to fail something that could of been free?

 

[Ste-s]

Thanks for responses. I've booked a test with rail competence group.
Regarding whether its worth it. I can't see how it won't help get through the sift as you've already passed the test.

 

[MistaMatthews]

Does that include MMI? And would the two lives rule still apply?

 

[RCG]

am looking at a career change and was wondering if anyone knows if I can do the driver psychometric test privately

Hi Ste, yes Railway Competence Group provide train driver psychometric testing. You can book through our website.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2020 ==

Does that include MMI? And would the two lives rule still apply?

Yes that includes the MMI. The two attempts, applies wherever you undertake testing as all assessments are stored on a shared database.

 

[TheGoldfish]

Thanks for responses. I've booked a test with rail competence group.
Regarding whether its worth it. I can't see how it won't help get through the sift as you've already passed the test

I doubt it will hold any sway with the sift process .. the only reason they’ll ask if you’ve already taken the tests is because you can’t take them twice or they’ll be looking for you to repeat as they want advance pass marks ..?

 

[DA1]

Thanks for responses. I've booked a test with rail competence group.
Regarding whether its worth it. I can't see how it won't help get through the sift as you've already passed the test.

Like its been alluded to it won’t necessarily help you get through the sift. That could potentially only be one tick box question. The initial application would be more based on whether you have the skills and attributes to be a driver. But good luck to you.

Just out of interest how much did it cost you?

 

[heedfan]

Just out fo interest how much did it cost you?

£549.99 according to the website.

 

[heedfan]

Thanks for responses. I've booked a test with rail competence group.
Regarding whether its worth it. I can't see how it won't help get through the sift as you've already passed the test.

Best of luck to you. I would say from personal experience that having passed these tests does not necessarily get you through the sift. I have passed all of the required tests and have applied for approximately 10 trainee driver roles since doing so, and only now have I been accepted onto a course. It is ruthlessly competitive.

 

[jacey]

fair play to you if you don't mind spending the money it can only aid your quest assuming you pass. i think i would do the same if i hadn't passed the tests already. £549 is really not that much in the grand scheme of things and if you can afford it then why not.

i have taken stage 1 in another city and stage 2 which again involved travelling. i then had to take the enhanced which involved a trip to London. all 3 test days i have had to book train tickets and hotels which would of all cost money. So don't worry about the cost. its all relative.

 

[DA1]

It’s also abit misleading. On the website it states that they’re valid for 5 years however every TOC is different, some as low as two years validity.
I think the point is that at the initial sifting stage it doesn’t increase your chances whatsoever. It only benefits you after you’ve passed the initial sift as it’s been said you then go straight to a DMI, unless you require enhanced.

 

[choochoochoo]

Definitely not worth paying to do the tests.

 

[RCG]

To be clear on a few points:

There is of course no guarantee that passing the tests privately will guarantee anyone a job. The reality is, it means a candidate has already passed a barrier for entry. Making them more attractive in a competitive job market.

The standard is that tests are valid for five years. As someone pointed out a Toc/Foc may change that to 3 if it suits them and have a candidate resit. Highly unlikely at anytime before that as no reason to, but not impossible.

Regarding having to sit tests with Opc this is not case. Tests are valid at all accredited centres not just the Opc. Many Tocs/Focs have their own centres.

Candidates have been able to sit tests privately at a number of companies for years, (although not recently). It is not buying a position nor is it new. Taking the tests is simply a means of improving an application if a candidate sees fit to do so.

 

[43066]

Personally I would advise saving the money, applying for trainee roles directly and then being put through the assessment by a TOC. TOCs have varying requirements with some requiring enhanced passes, some national level, some having additional exercises beyond the core tests. So there’s no guarantee that doing them privately would mean you wouldn’t need to do some/all of them again.

Keep in mind that the private tests still count as a life, so if you have a bad day at the test centre you’ll have sacrificed your first (of two) lives for no guaranteed shot at a job.

 

[Joliver]

To be clear on a few points:

There is of course no guarantee that passing the tests privately will guarantee anyone a job. The reality is, it means a candidate has already passed a barrier for entry. Making them more attractive in a competitive job market.

The standard is that tests are valid for five years. As someone pointed out a Toc/Foc may change that to 3 if it suits them and have a candidate resit. Highly unlikely at anytime before that as no reason to, but not impossible.

Regarding having to sit tests with Opc this is not case. Tests are valid at all accredited centres not just the Opc. Many Tocs/Focs have their own centres.

Candidates have been able to sit tests privately at a number of companies for years, (although not recently). It is not buying a position nor is it new. Taking the tests is simply a means of improving an application if a candidate sees fit to do so.

There are definitely TOCS out there that make you resit after 2/3 years of originally passing them.

 

[choochoochoo]

To be clear on a few points:

There is of course no guarantee that passing the tests privately will guarantee anyone a job. The reality is, it means a candidate has already passed a barrier for entry. Making them more attractive in a competitive job market.

The standard is that tests are valid for five years. As someone pointed out a Toc/Foc may change that to 3 if it suits them and have a candidate resit. Highly unlikely at anytime before that as no reason to, but not impossible.

Regarding having to sit tests with Opc this is not case. Tests are valid at all accredited centres not just the Opc. Many Tocs/Focs have their own centres.

Candidates have been able to sit tests privately at a number of companies for years, (although not recently). It is not buying a position nor is it new. Taking the tests is simply a means of improving an application if a candidate sees fit to do so.

Does it really improve your application though ?

As I see it, your application is still just as good as someone who would pass the TOC/FOC-sponsored tests.

All you've done is proved you have the means to pay for tests.

 

[dctraindriver]

I wouldn’t pay for it, and totally understand some of the points made. I do wonder at the mo with the recruitment back log would tocs or focs place those who’ve privately done the test ahead to interview?

 

[43066]

And also OP. Be aware that there is precisely one other poster on this thread who has a commercial interest in your £500+. I would therefore take whatever he says with an appropriate pinch of salt.

Nobody else commenting has any skin in the game.

 

[RCG]

There are definitely TOCS out there that make you resit after 2/3 years of originally passing them.

There are Tocs/Focs who may wish for a candidate to resit them after 2/3 years. But this is not a rule and may be done ad hoc. The reasoning for this can vary. The standard is 5 years regarding ORR train driver licensing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2020 ==

Does it really improve your application though ?

As I see it, your application is still just as good as someone who would pass the TOC/FOC-sponsored tests.

All you've done is proved you have the means to pay for tests.

It does not improve it compared to someone who has passed it with a Toc/Foc. As both candidates have passed and the test is standardised. Ultimately its up to the candidate, whether they believe achieving a pre requisite for a train driver licence, pre application will be beneficial or not?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2020 ==

And also OP. Be aware that there is precisely one other poster on this thread who has a commercial interest in your £500+. I would therefore take whatever he says with an appropriate pinch of salt.

Nobody else commenting has any skin in the game.

Its clear for all users that this is a company account and as such we are very careful about what is posted. The points raised referenced the standards for licensing.

At no point would we guarantee that this gets someone a train driver role. The tests are one of many hurdles within the process. Some people wish to sit tests privately to assist their application as has been the case for years. Other candidates do not.

 

[43066]

Its clear for all users that this is a company account and as such we are very careful about what is posted. The points raised referenced the standards for licensing.

Yes but what I said is also true. You want this guy’s £500 so you’re not objective, and you’re hardly going to say anything to dissuade him (fair enough you’re a commercial organisation - but this is a discussion forum - so it’s right that should be commented on).

At no point would we guarantee that this gets someone a train driver role. The tests are one of many hurdles within the process. Some people wish to sit tests privately to assist their application as has been the case for years. Other candidates do not.

It’s by no means clear that it assists their applications at all. I have met dozens and dozens of relatively new drivers over the last few years, not a single one of whom had paid to take the tests externally.

It’s also true (correct me if I’m wrong) that each candidate only gets two attempts, and each subsequent attempt overrides the last. A candidate could pass with you and still be asked to sit the tests with a TOC. If they had a shocker on the day and failed, they would then be barred from the job for life.

As I said above. Each to their own, but I’d much rather save my two lives (and my £500!) for attempts with TOCs/FOCs that would actually be able to give me a job driving trains.

 

[RCG]

Yes but what I said is also true. You want this guy’s £500 so you’re not objective, and you’re hardly going to say anything to dissuade him (fair enough you’re a commercial organisation - but this is a discussion forum - so it’s right that should be commented on).



It’s by no means clear that it assists their applications at all. I have met dozens and dozens of relatively new drivers over the last few years, not a single one of whom had paid to take the tests externally.

It’s also true (correct me if I’m wrong) that each candidate only gets two attempts, and each subsequent attempt overrides the last. A candidate could pass with you and still be asked to sit the tests with a TOC. If they had a shocker on the day and failed, they would then be barred from the job for life.

As I said above. I’d much rather save my two lives (and my £500!) for attempts with TOCs/FOCs that would actually be able to give me a job driving trains.

At no point have we tried to persuade anyone to sit the tests. We make a specific point of answering questions whilst remaining objective. As per forum rules regarding advertising.

The point that this is a company account is valid, but it does not discredit factual statements made by the company regarding testing. Many of these standards are available online with the Orr and Rssb.

You are incorrect regarding only being allowed two attempts at the test if one is a pass. A candidate will only be unable to resit if they have failed the tests twice before. The tests are designed as a barrier for entry and therefore there are restrictions. Again this is a candidates decision.

There are of course many drivers who sit their tests with Tocs/Focs and do not pay for them. I don’t believe anyone is disputing that, it is simply a consumer choice that some will seek to improve their chances by undertaking the tests pre application.

As with any other job application, additional qualifications/courses may benefit your application. It does not guarantee you a role especially in as competitive a job market as Train driving.

Hope this helps the poster. There are numerous threads over many years debating this topic. We will avoid debating the pros/cons as we do not wish to breach advertising rules on the forum.

 

[choochoochoo]

At no point have we tried to persuade anyone to sit the tests. We make a specific point of answering questions whilst remaining objective. As per forum rules regarding advertising.

The point that this is a company account is valid, but it does not discredit factual statements made by the company regarding testing. Many of these standards are available online with the Orr and Rssb.

You are incorrect regarding only being allowed two attempts at the test if one is a pass. A candidate will only be unable to resit if they have failed the tests twice before. The tests are designed as a barrier for entry and therefore there are restrictions. Again this is a candidates decision.

There are of course many drivers who sit their tests with Tocs/Focs and do not pay for them. I don’t believe anyone is disputing that, it is simply a consumer choice that some will seek to improve their chances by undertaking the tests pre application.

As with any other job application, additional qualifications/courses may benefit your application. It does not guarantee you a role especially in as competitive a job market as Train driving.

Hope this helps the poster. There are numerous threads over many years debating this topic. We will avoid debating the pros/cons as we do not wish to breach advertising rules on the forum.

The term 'barrier to entry' is an interesting choice.

I always saw the tests as a measure of suitability for the training and role rather than a barrier.

Also are the test essential to get a driver role ? What document from the ORR/DfT/Competent Authority says you have to have passed the tests ? There are plenty of older drivers out there who never took the tests. Did they have 'grandfather rights' for issue of their European Train Driving Licence ?

I know it's generally accepted across the industry that they should be passed but where is it explicitly dictated that the tests are needed ?

 

[43066]

You are correct there are only two attempts at the test. The tests are designed as a barrier for entry and therefore there are restrictions. Again this is a candidates decision.

There are of course many drivers who sit their tests with Tocs/Focs and do not pay for them. I don’t believe anyone is disputing that, it is simply a consumer choice that some will seek to improve their chances by undertaking the tests pre application.

There are some very carefully chosen words above!

In this part of the forum it’s important that we make things very clear for people who may not understand how this industry works.

It’s very important to emphasise that what you are offering is not in any sense a “practice run”, it is an ACTUAL attempt at the tests. If they fail, they lose a life. If they pass, there’s no job anyway. All they will get is the ability to say they’ve passed the aptitude tests, which many TOCs will put them through again in any case (possibly with additional TOC specific tests).

Failing next time = game over for life.

it is simply a consumer choice that some will seek to improve their chances by undertaking the tests pre application.

That isn’t an objective statement. Some pay to take these tests because they BELIEVE it improves their chances - it doesn’t necessarily do that at all.

There are hiring managers in this industry I’ve spoken to who are skeptical of this kind of thing - it raises questions like “couldn’t you get through the paper sift without doing that?”

As with any other job application, additional qualifications/courses may benefit your application.

With respect that’s a little disingenuous. It’s not an “additional qualification/course”, it’s not your plumbing qualification, or the degree you no longer use.

It’s the suite of tests you MUST pass to do this job, which you get two shots at, and which serves no other purpose whatsoever.

I know it's generally accepted across the industry that they should be passed but where is it explicitly dictated that the tests are needed ?

Yes it’s essential - you can’t side step it. That’s also why these companies can’t provide endless practice runs at £500 a pop, as much as they’d love to be able to...

This document provides some insight. Essentially the ORR is a non ministerial government department - but there are regulations governing the testing, who can do it etc.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/om/draft-train-driver-licences-training-and-examination-guide.pdf

 

[43066]

You are incorrect regarding only being allowed two attempts at the test if one is a pass. A candidate will only be unable to resit if they have failed the tests twice before.

Just to pick you up on this point specifically. My understanding is that if you pass the first time, but fail to below national standard the second time, that’s game over.

Unless you are saying subsequent attempts don’t overwrite the first? If so, please can you provide some evidence of that?

We are certainly in agreement that if they fail the first time with you, they’ve lost a life. If they pass, you cannot give them a key.

I just can’t personally see the point for a candidate to pay £500+ for a questionable (at best) upside if they pass, but a large downside if they fail.

 

[RCG]

There are some very carefully chosen words above!

In this part of the forum it’s important that we make things very clear for people who may not understand how this industry works.

It’s very important to emphasise that what you are offering is not in any sense a “practice run”, it is an ACTUAL attempt at the tests. If they fail, they lose a life. If they pass, there’s no job anyway. All they will get is the ability to say they’ve passed the aptitude tests, which many TOCs will put them through again in any case (possibly with additional TOC specific tests).

Failing next time = game over for life.



That isn’t an objective statement. Some pay to take these tests because they BELIEVE it improves their chances - it doesn’t necessarily do that at all.

There are hiring managers in this industry I’ve spoken to who are skeptical of this kind of thing - it raises questions like “couldn’t you get through the paper sift without doing that?”



With respect that’s a little disingenuous. It’s not an “additional qualification/course”, it’s not your plumbing qualification, or the degree you no longer use.

It’s the suite of tests you MUST pass to do this job, which you get two shots at, and which serves no other purpose whatsoever.



Yes it’s essential - you can’t side step it. That’s also why these companies can’t provide endless practice runs at £500 a pop, as much as they’d love to be able to...

This document provides some insight. Essentially the ORR is a non ministerial government department - but there are regulations governing the testing, who can do it etc.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/om/draft-train-driver-licences-training-and-examination-guide.pdf

At no point was a practise at the tests mentioned within this thread.

To be clear the standard isn’t two attempts. It’s two failed attempts. If someone passed and then failed they would be able to sit the tests again.

Operators do not require a candidate to resit a test they have already passed. If the operator deems the amount of time since passing to be excessive, that is ultimately the operators decision.

As referenced earlier this debate has been done for years in numerous threads. We will not debate it as this would be advertising. We simply point out the standards, and incorrect statements regarding the process.

Wish you all good luck with your applications.