2020 US Presidential Election

[RichT54]

Trump's bluster and wind won't have the same effect if it's generally ignored in the interim.

I don't think it will be just bluster and wind. It's far more likely he will inflict as much chaos and disruption as he can in the next few weeks, in order to make the work of the Biden administration as difficult as possible.

 

[nlogax]

I don't think it will be just bluster and wind. It's far more likely he will inflict as much chaos and disruption as he can in the next few weeks, in order to make the work of the Biden administration as difficult as possible.

Yes, I agree with that. Between now and mid December he'll salt the earth, and increase the intensity of that for the five weeks between the EC votes and inauguration. I'd argue this has already started.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

I don't think it will be just bluster and wind. It's far more likely he will inflict as much chaos and disruption as he can in the next few weeks, in order to make the work of the Biden administration as difficult as possible.

It’ll probably be more than when the Clinton administration (if rumours were to be believed) removed all the letter ‘W’s from keyboards across the Whitehouse

 

[fgwrich]

Yes, I agree with that. Between now and mid December he'll salt the earth, and increase the intensity of that for the five weeks between the EC votes and inauguration. I'd argue this has already started.

Bizarrely, he may quite literally be about to Salt the East around the White House, as the turf has been lifted from the front of the building this week*


*It could be relaying after the numerous Trump rallies held on the lawn, but this is Trump after all...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2020 ==

Also, just to add to the fun of the last week, in the past 24 hours it has been confirmed that both the White House's Chief of Staff and the person chosen to spearhead Trump's Legal Campaign have both succumbed to Covid19, after attending Trump's Maskless White House Party last week.

 

[AM9]

Bizarrely, he may quite literally be about to Salt the East around the White House, as the turf has been lifted from the front of the building this week*


*It could be relaying after the numerous Trump rallies held on the lawn, but this is Trump after all...

Maybe that's why the gang held a meeting in the grounds of the Four Seasons Landscapting Company.

 

[fgwrich]

Maybe that's why the gang held a meeting in the grounds of the Four Seasons Landscapting Company.

Haha, I did wonder! Funnily enough this ended up on the internet this morning. Perhaps they ordered some Lawn and Order?

Four Seasons Landscaping : Make America Rake Again!

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Someone on Twitter has discovered that the tweet by No 10 offering congratulations to Joe Biden is an airbrush job of an older version congratulating Trump:




Tweet here.

 

[najaB]

Also, just to add to the fun of the last week, in the past 24 hours it has been confirmed that both the White House's Chief of Staff and the person chosen to spearhead Trump's Legal Campaign have both succumbed to Covid19, after attending Trump's Maskless White House Party last week.

Just for clarity, "succumbed" means tested positive, not died.

 

[Gloster]

It’ll probably be more than when the Clinton administration (if rumours were to be believed) removed all the letter ‘W’s from keyboards across the Whitehouse

If this is true it was a fairly harmless joke, albeit a childish one. What Trump and his supporters may do is likely to stray into the realms of economic sabotage.

 

[AM9]

If this is true it was a fairly harmless joke, albeit a childish one. What Trump and his supporters may do is likely to stray into the realms of economic sabotage.

He would have to be very careful. If it caused damage to the White house, its infrastructure or any functionality it needs, Trump has a lot of assets in the US from which a court could claim compensation from the departed House 'tenant'. If Trump caused economic damage by malicious action, his successor could ensure that dealing with the damage was focussed in the appropriate quarters.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The Clintons apparently removed some stuff which was later returned. Not sure what DJT will do.

 

[Gloster]

He would have to be very careful. If it caused damage to the White house, its infrastructure or any functionality it needs, Trump has a lot of assets in the US from which a court could claim compensation from the departed House 'tenant'. If Trump caused economic damage by malicious action, his successor could ensure that dealing with the damage was focussed in the appropriate quarters.

That assumes that Trump is thinking rationally and that it is possible to prove that he was responsible (EDIT: and exceeding his powers). With his supporters it would have to be proven that they were acting on his direction. It would be a field-day for lawyers and could drag on for years.

 

[RichT54]

Rather than petty attempts a damaging the White House infrastructure, I think the danger is more likely to be making provocative acts against foreign powers such as Iran, trying to goad them into some form of physical retaliation, that would then prove to be very difficult for Biden to defuse. Other scenarios I have seen mentioned include authorising large arms sales to middle east countries and/or Taiwan.

 

[najaB]

Other scenarios I have seen mentioned include authorising large arms sales to middle east countries and/or Taiwan.

It would be difficult to get those sales approved by Congress.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If this is true it was a fairly harmless joke, albeit a childish one. What Trump and his supporters may do is likely to stray into the realms of economic sabotage.

I did a bit of Googling, and it appears that there was some damage to stuff at the White House, but less than some Republicans claimed, and not necessarily any more than had happened previously: New York Times says:

Six White House employees told investigators that they had seen graffiti derogatory to Mr. Bush on the wall of a stall in a men's room. Other White House employees saw a sticker in a filing cabinet that said, ''Jail to the thief,'' implying that Mr. Bush had stolen the 2000 election. The report said all these employees were members of the current White House, but did not make clear whether any had also worked in the Clinton White House.
The accounting office said similar pranks were reported in prior transitions, including the one from Mr. Bush's father to Mr. Clinton in 1993. ''We were unable to conclude,'' it said, ''whether the 2001 transition was worse than previous ones.''
The accounting office interviewed more than 100 government employees, but said it could not establish who was responsible for the damage and the pranks.

I'm not sure I'd dismiss that as a prank. Deliberately damaging stuff like that seems to me clearly wrong, although it seems there was never any reason to believe the Clintons themselves were either implicated or approved. There was also very legitimate anger towards the result in 2000 because Al Gore won the popular vote, and Bush took the presidency in part by preventing a full vote count in Florida. So, whereas today, Trump's claims that the Democrats stole the 2020 election are obvious fiction, the similar claims by many Democrats in 2000 did arguably have some truth to them. I don't think that justifies vandalism though.

On the other hand, I agree with you that there is a risk of Trump deliberately doing far more damage - not just to the White House, but to the country as a whole, which would be incomparably worse than anything the Clinton staff might have done.

 

[DerekC]

As I understand it a big problem currently is that because Trump won't concede, the mechanism for allowing Biden presidential access to government information and people can't start. So for example he can't officially meet Dr Antony Fauci, the current leader of the US coronavirus task force - and if he meets him unofficlally, Biden isn't allowed to be given any data.

 

[LittleAH]

Its pretty astounding they are trying to reverse the outcome at this stage. Doing a massive u turn on the importance of Anglo-American relations doesn't increase their credibility. The obvious question would be how would they treat a Republican president if Democrats lose in 4 years? The obvious solution is we should get on with sorting out our own problems and forget about a role in the world.

I voted remain and a deal with the EU on the terms on offer to the UK would satisfy most moderate remainers and brexiteers. The extremes on both sides may try to fight the battle through other issues for years to come but hopefully the rest of us can move on. If this situation forces the Tories to realise that the US does not value the UK then that is something that should be welcomed, but it won't make them reconsider their view of the EU.

Nobody is trying to reverse the outcome, that was settled in the last GE. Whether people like it or not, on the world stage Brexit isn't particularly viewed well and the way that this government has conducted itself, notably willing to break international law, has done a heap of damage to Britain's reputation. Trump as POTUS welcomed this though and emboldened this government's will to carry on as they have been - all in hope of a trade deal. However, as has been evident over the past few days, the Biden administration aren't fans of the PM, not their tactics - it has implications for the UK, although some will try and diminish that view. As John Major said only yesterday, we were the bridge between the UK and Europe which is why there was a 'special relationship' - that bridge now resembles Boris Johnson's garden bridge.

 

[Chester1]

Nobody is trying to reverse the outcome, that was settled in the last GE. Whether people like it or not, on the world stage Brexit isn't particularly viewed well and the way that this government has conducted itself, notably willing to break international law, has done a heap of damage to Britain's reputation. Trump as POTUS welcomed this though and emboldened this government's will to carry on as they have been - all in hope of a trade deal. However, as has been evident over the past few days, the Biden administration aren't fans of the PM, not their tactics - it has implications for the UK, although some will try and diminish that view. As John Major said only yesterday, we were the bridge between the UK and Europe which is why there was a 'special relationship' - that bridge now resembles Boris Johnson's garden bridge.

The special relationship was a myth. We have a close relationship on security because its mutually beneficial, everything else is PR.

John Major is a die hard EU supporter who wanted the UK to join the Euro and caused a recession when that caused us to crash out the ERM. He is part of a section of remainers that will blame brexit for everything they don't like until the day they die. You only need to look at who has appeared in the media in regards to Biden. Its bitter remainers like Major and Kim Darroch (the ambassador fired for insulting Trump). The nerve of Europhiles for bemoaning damage to Anglo-American relations is breathtaking. Most of the people saying Boris has done damage wanted basically no relationship with the US for 4 years! If that was OK then awkward relations for 4 years should be! Thats assuming Boris lasts that long and plenty of domestic factors make that iffy.

Frankly, being the bridge between Europe and America was a sack of **** that has caused the UK no end of aggravation for decades. The US can bang its head against that brick wall all by itself. Its worth losing the influence on that front. There is no chance the EU is going to sort out its own defence or all agree on a position on Russia and China. Biden will get very frustrated with the EU.

 

[LittleAH]

The special relationship was a myth. We have a close relationship on security because its mutually beneficial, everything else is PR.

John Major is a die hard EU supporter who wanted the UK to join the Euro and caused a recession when that caused us to crash out the ERM. He is part of a section of remainers that will blame brexit for everything they don't like until the day they die. You only need to look at who has appeared in the media in regards to Biden. Its bitter remainers like Major and Kim Darroch (the ambassador fired for insulting Trump). The nerve of Europhiles for bemoaning damage to Anglo-American relations is breathtaking. Most of the people saying Boris has done damage wanted basically no relationship with the US for 4 years! If that was OK then awkward relations for 4 years should be! Thats assuming Boris lasts that long and plenty of domestic factors make that iffy.

Frankly, being the bridge between Europe and America was a sack of **** that has caused the UK no end of aggravation for decades. The US can bang its head against that brick wall all by itself. Its worth losing the influence on that front. There is no chance the EU is going to sort out its own defence or all agree on a position on Russia and China. Biden will get very frustrated with the EU.

For someone who claims to be a moderate remainer, you don't half come out with the clap trap that would find itself in a Wetherspoons magazine. You bemoan Europhiles for damaging US-UK relations, but the evidence has been there for a long time that pandering to Trump was damaging the UK's global reputation, as well as Boris Johnson's comments which were at best unprofessional when it came to Obama and the Democrats. They've not forgotten...

The 'special relationship' was also hardly a myth, over-stated at times may be, but the US and the UK have held close ties throughout different premierships in the last 70 years. They're an important ally, even more so given the political mire that this country has put itself in. You have no idea about how Biden's relationship with the EU will go, definitely much smoother that Trump, but one guarantee is that this US premiership will not the the UK renege on the GFA which immediately puts BoJo's position of breaking international law in the bin - only a fool would continue down that path.

Foreign Affairs isn't black and white either, unlike you seem to think. But with Biden in charge, it seems the adults are back at the table, which right now is a relief to most moderates in the UK.

 

[Chester1]

For someone who claims to be a moderate remainer, you don't half come out with the clap trap that would find itself in a Wetherspoons magazine. You bemoan Europhiles for damaging US-UK relations, but the evidence has been there for a long time that pandering to Trump was damaging the UK's global reputation, as well as Boris Johnson's comments which were at best unprofessional when it came to Obama and the Democrats. They've not forgotten...

The 'special relationship' was also hardly a myth, over-stated at times may be, but the US and the UK have held close ties throughout different premierships in the last 70 years. They're an important ally, even more so given the political mire that this country has put itself in. You have no idea about how Biden's relationship with the EU will go, definitely much smoother that Trump, but one guarantee is that this US premiership will not the the UK renege on the GFA which immediately puts BoJo's position of breaking international law in the bin - only a fool would continue down that path.

Foreign Affairs isn't black and white either, unlike you seem to think. But with Biden in charge, it seems the adults are back at the table, which right now is a relief to most moderates in the UK.

I am not bemoaning remainers for damaging Anglo - US relations under Trump, I am pointing out the hypocrisy of demanding the government pretty much disregard one US president for four years then suddenly argue its essential to have a close relationship with the next one. It wasn't necessary for Boris to be close to Trump and neither is it necessary for him to be close to Biden. Our policy towards the most powerful country in the world should not be determined by liking or disliking the politics of whoever is leader.

I was a remainer, now I hope brexit is a success because now we have left that is what is best for the country. I know several remainers who have openly admitted that they want it to be a disaster either so they can say they said it would be or because they believe that will cause us to rejoin the EU so they get what they want in the end. That attitude disgusts me because they are wishing damage to their own country and fellow citizens. Perhaps I am judging members of the site based off on those people (who are the people I know that are most excited about Biden winning). Perhaps thats a coincidence or perhaps its that many people are entrenched in brexiteer and remainer tribal identities and view UK and international politics through that prism.

 

[najaB]

Our policy towards the most powerful country in the world should not be determined by liking or disliking the politics of whoever is leader.

Agreed. However, the problem was that maintaining a close relationship with the USA under Trump would mean aligning ourselves with some policies that were questionable at best. For example, we are committed to fighting climate change, but the position of his administration is that it doesn't exist.

I was a remainer, now I hope brexit is a success because now we have left that is what is best for the country. I know several remainers who have openly admitted that they want it to be a disaster either so they can say they said it would be or because they believe that will cause us to rejoin the EU so they get what they want in the end.

I don't want it to be a disaster, but I expect it will be unless this government changes direction very soon.

 

[jfollows]

The votes are coming in much more slowly now, but for a few states I've been watching it looks like the current and final majorities (deficit in North Carolina) for Biden will be:

Georgia current majority 14,149, additional 40% of remaining 3,000 votes brings final majority to ~15,350 (<0.5%)
Arizona current majority 12,813, reduction of 13% of remaining 53,800 votes brings final majority to ~5,800
Pennsylvania current majority 45,516, additional 49% of remaining 136,300 votes brings final majority to ~112,000 (>0.5%)
North Carolina current deficit 74,870, additional 27% of remaining 104,800 votes brings final deficit to ~47,000
Nevada current majority 36,726, additional 21% of remaining 120,900 votes brings final majority to ~62,000

All calculations somewhat simplistic and with some inaccuracies. Additional votes based on performance in the state from votes recorded since 5/11/2020, "additional 40%" means that Biden is leading 70% to 30% in these, and hence the difference accounts for the increased majority.

Mail-in and other votes counted in North Carolina over the last few days favour Biden, but not enough to overcome the lead already established by Trump from voting on the day. Conversely, in Arizona the most recent votes counted go in Trump's favour, but not enough to overtake Biden's lead there.

 

[edwin_m]

I am not bemoaning remainers for damaging Anglo - US relations under Trump, I am pointing out the hypocrisy of demanding the government pretty much disregard one US president for four years then suddenly argue its essential to have a close relationship with the next one. It wasn't necessary for Boris to be close to Trump and neither is it necessary for him to be close to Biden. Our policy towards the most powerful country in the world should not be determined by liking or disliking the politics of whoever is leader.

Ideally yes, but as in many things Trump is an exception. I don't think it's hypocritical to call out some of the terrible things he has done, and it would be sensible for the British government to have kept its distance. There's a lot more scope for constructive engagement with Biden, although having been close to Trump handicaps that for Britain to some extent.

Mail-in and other votes counted in North Carolina over the last few days favour Biden, but not enough to overcome the lead already established by Trump from voting on the day. Conversely, in Arizona the most recent votes counted go in Trump's favour, but not enough to overtake Biden's lead there.

Presumably some of the last votes to come in will be from military posted elsewhere, who on balance will probably tend more towards Trump.

 

[najaB]

Presumably some of the last votes to come in will be from military posted elsewhere, who on balance will probably tend more towards Trump.

Actually, they quite were strongly favouring Biden in polling. Diverting DoD funding to build the wall was not a popular move among the military, nor was the transgender ban.

I dare say that threats to deploy active duty troops to quell civil rights protests wouldn't have helped his popularity that much either.

 

[birchesgreen]

Presumably some of the last votes to come in will be from military posted elsewhere, who on balance will probably tend more towards Trump.

Perhaps though i read a poll that said Biden-Trump were about 50% each with military personnel, Trump has alienated quite a lot of service personnel over the last 4 years.

 

[radamfi]

I was a remainer, now I hope brexit is a success because now we have left that is what is best for the country. I know several remainers who have openly admitted that they want it to be a disaster either so they can say they said it would be or because they believe that will cause us to rejoin the EU so they get what they want in the end. That attitude disgusts me because they are wishing damage to their own country and fellow citizens.

Suppose they want to take advantage of EHIC and/or free movement in the future?

 

[Starmill]

For someone who claims to be a moderate remainer, you don't half come out with the clap trap that would find itself in a Wetherspoons magazine. You bemoan Europhiles for damaging US-UK relations, but the evidence has been there for a long time that pandering to Trump was damaging the UK's global reputation, as well as Boris Johnson's comments which were at best unprofessional when it came to Obama and the Democrats. They've not forgotten...

The 'special relationship' was also hardly a myth, over-stated at times may be, but the US and the UK have held close ties throughout different premierships in the last 70 years. They're an important ally, even more so given the political mire that this country has put itself in. You have no idea about how Biden's relationship with the EU will go, definitely much smoother that Trump, but one guarantee is that this US premiership will not the the UK renege on the GFA which immediately puts BoJo's position of breaking international law in the bin - only a fool would continue down that path.

Foreign Affairs isn't black and white either, unlike you seem to think. But with Biden in charge, it seems the adults are back at the table, which right now is a relief to most moderates in the UK.

Indeed. And someone who brings Brexit into just about everything, despite constantly professing their desire to "move on"

The idea that President Biden will be frustrated by the EU when he has Congressional Republicans to deal with is also a big laugh.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2020 ==

now I hope brexit is a success because now we have left that is what is best for the country

Me too! And I can tell you that if I were Prime Minister, I reckon it would be, because we would have agreed the closest possible economic relationship with the Single Market.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2020 ==

That attitude disgusts me because they are wishing damage to their own country and fellow citizens.

Thank you for letting us know?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2020 ==

who are the people I know that are most excited about Biden winning

I'm excited that he has won from a values-space perspective, from an allies of the US perspective and from what I could describe as a decency of conduct perspective. It just doesn't have anything to do with Brexit.

 

[najaB]

I'm excited that he has won from a values-space perspective, from an allies of the US perspective and from what I could describe as a decency of conduct perspective. It just doesn't have anything to do with Brexit.

Exactly. Brexit or not, Biden is objectively better suited to the job than Trump.

 

[Gloster]

Perhaps though i read a poll that said Biden-Trump were about 50% each with military personnel, Trump has alienated quite a lot of service personnel over the last 4 years.

I think that Trump’s churlish reaction to John McCain’s death did not go down at all well with the military.

 

[najaB]

I think that Trump’s churlish reaction to John McCain’s death did not go down at all well with the military.

Nor did sending thousands of troops to the southern border to deal with a non-existent threat from the migrant caravan. Especially since that caused many of them to miss Thanksgiving with their families.