HST refurbs : Great Western v Cross Country

[Justin Smith]

A very good post sprinterguy, though it's probably all in vain as Justin seems tor efuse to accept anyone else's view is valid.

I`ve never said nobody else`s view is valid.
Furthermore I`ve never said that nobody ever stands on XC services, in fact I`ve had to stand on the odd service going home, at peak time, South from Leeds or North from New St.
BUT, it`s definitely the minority of times even at peak times, and I`ve never had to stand for the whole journey from New St to Sheff, the worst it`s been is standing as far as Derby.
However, if it was a choice between avoiding standing on that small number of journies, and still having seats which were reasonably roomy, then I`d obviously choose the option of standing less, but that isn`t the choice.
For me I`d prefer to stand for part of the way on the odd journey rather than being uncomfortable on the great majority of other journies when loads of seats are empty. Quite apart from anything else, just because they`ve crammed another 8 seats in doesn`t mean you`ll never have to stand anyway, it just means the chances you`ll have to stand are less.
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I am no expert as I am sure my posts prove but are you looking at the subsidy as pure money or as a percentage? I would have thought that it was a given that there is a lot more money floating around than in the BR days but that could be put down to inflation etc..?

Everything appears to have been cheaper in the days of BR (or when I was a lad anyway), now everything seems to be more expensive.

I don`t have the figures to hand but as far as I`m aware it`s accepted that BR had a significantly smaller subsidy than the system gets at the moment.
I`m not saying the subsidy should be less than it is at the moment, I`m simply speculating that it may not be used as efficiently as it could be, judging by the amounts BR used to get.

 

[Greenback]

I've never said nobody else's view is valid.
Furthermore I've never said that nobody ever stands on XC services, in fact I've had to stand on the odd service going home, at peak time, South from Leeds or North from New St.
BUT, it's definitely the minority of times even at peak times, and I've never had to stand for the whole journey from New St to Sheff, the worst it's been is standing as far as Derby.
However, if it was a choice between avoiding standing on that small number of journies, and still having seats which were reasonably roomy, then I'd obviously choose the option of standing less, but that isn't the choice.
For me I'd prefer to stand for part of the way on the odd journey rather than being uncomfortable on the great majority of other journies when loads of seats are empty. Quite apart from anything else, just because they've crammed another 8 seats in doesn't mean you'll never have to stand anyway, it just means the chances you'll have to stand are less.

In that case, why not accept the consensus view that whether the seats ona particuler train are cramped or not depends on the individual, that putting in more seats has been the only option in the circumstances due to high growth and lack of funding for new and additional carraiges, and that if soemone wishes to avoid particular traisn due to comfort issues, there are usually alternatives for them to use.

Constantly repeating that you find 1" of leg room unacceptable, and that there should be a public outcry, doesn;t really do anything except make it appear that you are not accepting other views. Posting heavy sarcasm also implies disrespect for anyone that hs that view. I regret I did it myself, but it was really only to make a point.

You are entitled to your personal views. Continuing to repeat them does not, however, make them any more 'right'. You still come across as determined to impose your own particular views and standards on seating on everyone else, even though the vast majority do not share those views and are reasonably happy with things as they are.

 

[sprinterguy]

XC services are extensively used by business travelers as well due to the destinations they serve. For instance, someone traveling from Bristol TM to a business meeting Edinburgh might use XC to avoid traveling via London. There appear to be quite a few business travelers between Birmingham NS and Leeds as well since both cities are major employment centres.

I read somewhere that the Voyager production line could be reopened to build centre cars for the Voyagers, but these would be unpowered since the Cummins engines they'd require have since gone out of production. Not only would journey times be lengthened (a seven car Voyager with two unpowered cars might have problems ascending Dainton bank) but the ROSCOs wouldn't fund the cost of building them. This is due to an uncertain rolling stock market caused by the absence of a national rolling stock construction/cascade program.

Good point, I forgot to think about the large number of business travellers that work in places other than London, especially commuting to business centres such as Leeds: Nonetheless, Crosscountry witnesses some very different off peak travel patterns to many of the London-centric Intercity operators (Although there are of course various exceptions).

A very informative post that covers a lot that I wouldn't have though/known to mention: Basically the climate in the UK rail industry is not conducive to risk taking and allowing forward thinking.

A very good post sprinterguy, though it's probably all in vain as Justin seems tor efuse to accept anyone else's view is valid.

You're most probably right; some of the points in that post have already been mentioned by other posters, so I'm partly just reiterating some logical arguments: In fact, I may well be beginning to repeat myself from my previous posts, this whole argument just seems to be going round in circles!

 

[Greenback]

Precisely. Justin would like less seats with more space and more a greater chance of standing on busy trains.

Most of us don't find the seats uncomfortable and want less chance of having to stand even for a short while. That about sums it up for me. Why it's gone on for 11 pages, I can't quite fathom.

 

[Geezertronic]

Why it's gone on for 11 pages, I can't quite fathom.

Well I'm having quite a laugh, especially since in those 11 pages I have not shared a view on the subject matter only commenting on the way certain views have been delivered (with the odd bit of digression added as well for good measure)

 

[Greenback]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good bit of discussion, and I appreciate that we've had the internet, search engine crawlers and aerials thrown in, but the point is that the discussion on the major issue hasn't really gone anywhere since around page2! Therefore sprinterguy is right to say we're going around in circles, at least as to whether XC HST's are the most cramped trains in the UK!

 

[Justin Smith]

In that case, why not accept the consensus view that whether the seats ona particuler train are cramped or not depends on the individual, that putting in more seats has been the only option in the circumstances due to high growth and lack of funding for new and additional carraiges, and that if soemone wishes to avoid particular traisn due to comfort issues, there are usually alternatives for them to use.

Constantly repeating that you find 1" of leg room unacceptable, and that there should be a public outcry, doesn;t really do anything except make it appear that you are not accepting other views. Posting heavy sarcasm also implies disrespect for anyone that hs that view. I regret I did it myself, but it was really only to make a point.

You are entitled to your personal views. Continuing to repeat them does not, however, make them any more 'right'. You still come across as determined to impose your own particular views and standards on seating on everyone else, even though the vast majority do not share those views and are reasonably happy with things as they are.

How do you know that the "vast majority" are quite happy for the amount of room they're given on a train to be reduced ? Why would they be ?
Incidentally, whether a seat is cramped or not is subjective, up to a point anyway, but saying it's more cramped than it used to be is not. It's an objective, provable fact.
Incidentally it's not that easy to avoid a particular train as you say. One of the few examples of this being possible is York to KX, where one can use Grand Central. I've been on a few Grand Central refurbed HSTs and they were very impressive (can I say that, I thought I only ever criticised....), loads of legroom, which there should be with only 64 seats per coach. If I lived in York I'd use Grand Central if I could. Hopefully they'll start a service from Sheffield.

 

[devon_metro]

but saying it's more cramped than it used to be is not. It's an objective, provable fact.

Utter nonsense.

Define cramped.

 

[Geezertronic]

How do you know that the "vast majority" are quite happy for the amount of room they're given on a train to be reduced ? Why would they be ?

How do you know the "vast majority" are not happy, indifferent or otherwise? Is there a valid survey on the subject to refer to?

Given the fact that there has not been a mass outcry and boycott of the trains and TOC, I would suggest that the "vast majority" don't actually care as long as they get a seat...

You're quite welcome to share your opinion but don't always assume other people agree and why you feel the need to drag this out just because a different opinion has been made to yours is beyond belief now...

 

[Greenback]

How do you know that the "vast majority" are quite happy for the amount of room they're given on a train to be reduced ? Why would they be ?
Incidentally, whether a seat is cramped or not is subjective, up to a point anyway, but saying it's more cramped than it used to be is not. It's an objective, provable fact.
Incidentally it's not that easy to avoid a particular train as you say. One of the few examples of this being possible is York to KX, where one can use Grand Central. I've been on a few Grand Central refurbed HSTs and they were very impressive (can I say that, I thought I only ever criticised....), loads of legroom, which there should be with only 64 seats per coach. If I lived in York I'd use Grand Central if I could. Hopefully they'll start a service from Sheffield.

How do you know the "vast majority" are not happy, indifferent or otherwise? Is there a valid survey on the subject to refer to?

Given the fact that there has not been a mass outcry and boycott of the trains and TOC, I would suggest that the "vast majority" don't actually care as long as they get a seat...

You're quite welcome to share your opinion but don't always assume other people agree and why you feel the need to drag this out just because a different opinion has been made to yours is beyond belief now...

I agree with geezertronic. You hear very few complaints in the national passenger survey, in the media, on forums, or on the trains themselves about people being uncomfortable.

The only person I have ever known of complaining that the seats are too close together is Justin Smith!

Of course, it is easy to avoid trains you don't like. Use the bus, coach, car, taxi, cycle, walk or fly if there isn't another operator or type of train on the route you want to travel. Or, alternatively, grit your teeth, try and find a priority seat that's not being used, or stand in the vestibule if you feel the seats are that bad. No one is forcing anyone to sue a particular train!

It's also apparent from this very thread that the majority of people who have contributed do not agree with your subjective views. Whereas we agree that more seats have been put in, which was one of the original points in the thread, there has not been a massive support for your contentions about discomfort!

 

[Justin Smith]

Utter nonsense.

Define cramped.

If you think that's "Utter nonsense" you're not reading what I said.

"Cramped" is a subjective term, up to a point anyway. I think the XC refurbed HSTs are cramped, you obviously don't, though I'd be interested to know what your inside leg measurement is for you to think that......

"More cramped" (then something else) is not subjective. There is less room between the seats on XC refurbed HSTs than there was before they messed around with them, therefore they're more cramped. That's not subjective.
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It's also apparent from this very thread that the majority of people who have contributed do not agree with your subjective views. Whereas we agree that more seats have been put in, which was one of the original points in the thread, there has not been a massive support for your contentions about discomfort!

But there are other people who have agreed with me, it's just that they're unwilling to have to keep posting the same thing. To be honest I don't blame them.

Contrary to what some people think most people do not bother complaining, they think it's a waste of time and it won't make any difference.
There's a great article on complaining here, and if nobody ever complained about that totally useless Cable Dispenser, it proves my point that most people just don't complain, Albert Speer would be most disappointed.
And I've just added an amusing joke (well I think it is) starting :
Dear Mr Hitler,
I'd like to register a complaint......

 

[Geezertronic]

There's a great article on complaining here, and if nobody ever complained about that totally useless Cable Dispenser, it proves my point that most people just don't complain, Albert Speer would be most disappointed.
And I've just added an amusing joke (well I think it is) starting :
Dear Mr Hitler,
I'd like to register a complaint......

Which links to your own website.....

 

[Skimble19]

I've never laughed so much than at the drivel that this "Justin Smith" is posting, and then I viewed his website.

Justin, do you ever just shut up? You're just babbling on about absolute rubbish now, and have been for the last 9(?) pages!

Oh, and to cheer you up: "There are 1,002,186 sites with a better three-month global Alexa traffic rank than Aerialsandtv.com" :P

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Which links to your own website.....

Shall we try and find an unbiased article?

 

[Greenback]

If you think that's "Utter nonsense" you're not reading what I said.

"Cramped" is a subjective term, up to a point anyway. I think the XC refurbed HSTs are cramped, you obviously don't, though I'd be interested to know what your inside leg measurement is for you to think that......

"More cramped" (then something else) is not subjective. There is less room between the seats on XC refurbed HSTs than there was before they messed around with them, therefore they're more cramped. That's not subjective.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But there are other people who have agreed with me, it's just that they're unwilling to have to keep posting the same thing. To be honest I don't blame them.

Contrary to what some people think most people do not bother complaining, they think it's a waste of time and it won't make any difference.
There's a great article on complaining here, and if nobody ever complained about that totally useless Cable Dispenser, it proves my point that most people just don't complain, Albert Speer would be most disappointed.
And I've just added an amusing joke (well I think it is) starting :
Dear Mr Hitler,
I'd like to register a complaint......

I am not saying that no one else in the UK agrees with you. There are probably some people on here who have sym,ptahy with your vies. I have sympathy with some fo the things you have said about small windows for example. And I do fidn the seats in soem trains are more cramped than others.

However, the vast majority of people, ont hsi thread and in others, either do not agree with your views at all, or agree a little but not to the extent that they find it a disgrace! After all, as has been said many times, you will also feel very cramped on aircraft, coaches and buses - and again, some types of bus or plane ar emore spacious and more comfortable than others.

Personally, I always complain if I feel there is a reason to. Usually, this is because any good organisation will want to know where they can improve on their product or service. Hiowever, I recognise that soem things are completely subjective. If, as I did recently, I order a dish that I haven't tried before, and discover that I don't like the taste even though it is perfectly well cooked and presented, I have no grounds to complain. On the other hand, if the food is cold, over or under cooked etc, then I will let the staff know so that the problem can be rectified.

The crux of the seating matter is that although there probably are some complaints made, these are few comapred tot he complaints about overcrowding, delayed trains and so on. I complained about the FGW HST seats, if there aren't enough peopel who agree with me about their height I don;t expect them to be changed. I simply don't travel ont eh trains if I can avoid it. I don't assume that because I don't like them then most other people will share my views. Unfortunately, in topics like this, your sheer persistence makes it appear that you either think that because you say it/think it it must be right, and that it's so obvious everyone else must be blind not to see it!

So, to sum up, we all know you fond some trains cramped. We know you think it is terrible that TOC's have been allowed to get away with putting in extra seats. But face it, please, not enough people agree with you!

 

[Skimble19]

I believe it was this thread in which somebody mentioned Justins little claim to fame on the "Pendolino" page on Wikipedia.. It's taken him a few weeks but he's just noticed it accidentally disappeared a while back and decided to put it back again, only for somebody else to remove it again

 

[Geezertronic]

I believe it was this thread in which somebody mentioned Justins little claim to fame on the "Pendolino" page on Wikipedia.. It's taken him a few weeks but he's just noticed it accidentally disappeared a while back and decided to put it back again, only for somebody else to remove it again

Wasn't me I put the original citations in around June 2010 after some discussion on the talk page and in this thread but it looks like people with more Wikipedia knowledge than me has decided to remove the research on the basis of insufficient official references. Might be worth getting official sources if you want to add it back in Justin.

 

[57315]

Personally I believe FGW & AXC win on different levels of their Refresh.

Thumbs Up
FGW:for the Buffet/Express Cafe design.
AXC:for the seating layout and increasing the luggage space.

Thumbs Down
FGW:FC Leather Interior
AXClectronic Seat Reservations not working.

 

[MCR247]

AXClectronic Seat Reservations not working.

Its not that they don't work, they aren't wired up

 

[Skimble19]

Wasn't me I put the original citations in around June 2010 after some discussion on the talk page and in this thread but it looks like people with more Wikipedia knowledge than me has decided to remove the research on the basis of insufficient official references. Might be worth getting official sources if you want to add it back in Justin.

Indeed, essentially it was no more than an opinion, which is something Wikipedia detests Basically, Justin, if you'd like that paragraph to stay there for more than 10 minutes, you're gonna need to find some official sources to back up your claims, otherwise......

 

[387star]

Personally I believe FGW & AXC win on different levels of their Refresh.

Thumbs Up
FGW:for the Buffet/Express Cafe design.
AXC:for the seating layout and increasing the luggage space.

Thumbs Down
FGW:FC Leather Interior
AXClectronic Seat Reservations not working.

Seating layout on XC HSTs wins? I thought the majority on this thread were in agreement that leg room is atrocious. I have yet to travel on them and give my verdict..

Doe anyone know what is happening to the 8th coaches and will they come back? Will the diagrams increase again also?

 

[MCR247]

Doubt it until XC fork out some money or the DfT intervene..

 

[57315]

Its not that they don't work, they aren't wired up

I am aware of this. The words 'Not working' can mean a lot in the railway worlds as i am sure many members know.

The legroom problem i have never noticed to be perfectly honest. Ok some of the airline seats can be a little bit small but passengers i have spoke to onboard say they prefer that to a voyager train.

I guess no TOC will ever come up top trumps on passenger comfort there will always be niggles passengers will have regardless of what Passenger Focus surveys state.

 

[jon0844]

If you get to where you're going on time, and any connections are easy to make and are also on time, I doubt many people will have a bad experience.

I am sure that if there's any sort of delay or problem, that's when people start to get into 'attack everything' mode and will then spot every little detail.

In most cases, I doubt people are really bothered about things like legroom, unless it's actually hard to get in/out of your seat. The first class seats on a 365 are a right PITA because of the table which makes it bloody hard to get in and out (and not just if you're a big guy!).. but you're fine once you ARE sitting down.

 

[Justin Smith]

Wasn't me I put the original citations in around June 2010 after some discussion on the talk page and in this thread but it looks like people with more Wikipedia knowledge than me has decided to remove the research on the basis of insufficient official references. Might be worth getting official sources if you want to add it back in Justin.

If I ever get round to it I'll put all the dimensions and calculations on my site and link to that.
I have to say that Wikipedia can too wedded to it's own rules sometimes. I can remember deleting statistics on the Wakefield Kirkgate page because Wiki gave the usage of Kirkgate from 2004 to 2007 as being a few hundred, a year that is. That is obviously rubbish, but someone went and put them back on "because they're official statistics". I just thought, this is a joke, can't be arsed with it.

 

[Sherlock37]

I spent Derby to Bristol Temple Meads on a XC HST, and I was very impressed with the comfort.

I saw inside a FGW HST and it looked very comfortable, too.

 

[Skimble19]

If I ever get round to it I'll put all the dimensions and calculations on my site and link to that.
I have to say that Wikipedia can too wedded to it's own rules sometimes. I can remember deleting statistics on the Wakefield Kirkgate page because Wiki gave the usage of Kirkgate from 2004 to 2007 as being a few hundred, a year that is. That is obviously rubbish, but someone went and put them back on "because they're official statistics". I just thought, this is a joke, can't be arsed with it.

At which point I'll log on and remove it all again.. You publishing your own biased nonsense on your own site doesn't change the situation regards validity of sources..

Instead of thinking its obviously rubbish (good to see you being pro-active :roll why not actually make the effort of clicking on that link and checking yourself?! It's not hard, I've done it enough times..!!!

 

[mralexn]

I thought the lighting was way too bright on the xc hst when its dark outside

Dim the lights when nobody is looking
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I Like both,
XC have done a really good job in 1st class,
and the same with standard if you manage to get yourself a table
however when the lights are on full, it is a bit too bright.
i also love first great westerns refurb, but, the main thing i dont like about it is the lack of tables, the lighting is horrible and the whole cold feel the carriages have inside. also they have tinted the windows so much that everything you see just seems to be in sepia,
very nice job with the buffet cars.
although my personal fav refurb has to be East Coast ^_^

 

[jon0844]

FGW feel cold presumably as they have very cool temperature lights. Wagn fitted the 317s with these and FCC have now changed back to warm temperature lights.

Personally, I like the 'cool' effect (same on my monitors) but clearly most like a yellow, warm, touch.

At least the HSTs on FGW aren't as bright as they were - with every other light turned off. Meanwhile the EC HSTs have LED lights that are probably too dark, and extremely cold temperature. Very old generation lights, given Philips now do decent, bright, warm lamps to go in the existing fittings.

 

[37402]

I am aware of this. The words 'Not working' can mean a lot in the railway worlds as i am sure many members know.

The company installing them went bust.
Quite how there is (or rather was) only one company in the entire world who are capable of comissioning this system I don't know? AIUI said company is now owned by Bombardier and are demanding quite a bit of £££'s to complete the installation by all accounts.
It is an ongoing issue...:roll: