Lockdown in England from Thursday 5 November until Wednesday 2 December

[yorksrob]

Obviously not this particular lockdown, but there was an interesting article on the BBC yesterday regarding the situation in Merthyr Tydfil which has seen a spike in cases:

Covid-19: Merthyr Tydfil's 'closeness and community' spreading virus

Merthyr Tydfil has one of the UK's highest Covid-19 rates - but why is the county being so badly hit?

www.bbc.co.uk

The words of one of the local councillors caught my eye as they seemed to articulate what I've suspected - that the closure of hospitality has actually had a detrimental effect on transmission rates as people have been meeting at home instead:

If you close these things, where do the people go then? They clearly go to their friends' houses to congregate, or they might go to the local shop," he said.
This is the problem we are up against, particularly in Merthyr Tydfil, when you shut down the pubs and community centres - there's nowhere to go, it's pushing people back to drinking at home

 

[david1212]

Both are completely flawed for a number of reasons - no shops should have been forced to close, and the lack of public buy in to the stay at home message just means that those remaining open are busier.

...

Neither situation is satisfactory. It would simply have been better to allow all shops to remain open, perhaps excluding those places where there's a high incidence of unavoidable inter-personal contact, e.g. hairdressers.

All that's happened is they've crowded out those shops which have remained open, and seemingly gifted us a return to queues to get into the supermarket.

I'd be interested to know if there's any evidence either way as to what extent shops are considered to be a place where spread is likely. My local newspaper has a piece this week suggesting shops are the second highest-risk place after schools, however I find this rather suspect, not least because the gist of the article was that "X percentage of infected people said they'd been in a shop", which is kind of a statement of the obvious as most people visit shops regularly, but doesn't confirm that this is where they picked up Covid. Evidently with so many people in my area working from home the paper has decided to give public transport a break!

I totally agree with shops. So long as reasonable control of numbers vs floor space, as there has been since March, and the fact that the risk of cross- infection when close to an infected person ( who isn't feeling any symptoms ) for just a couple of seconds is very low the damage to retail and the economy at large must massively outweigh the few additional cases.

Hairdressers, beauticians, nail bars, gyms, indoor play areas, pubs, cafes, restaurants and similar where the inter-personal contact time between customers and other customers and/or customers and staff is much longer are where the risk is much higher.

Not sure if this is best here, or in the Supermarkets thread, but somehow missed this article from The Grocer yesterday

English supermarkets told to cordon off areas of non-essential goods

The Grocer understands the UK government has told retailers it will not go as far as the Welsh ban

www.thegrocer.co.uk

Hopefully this isn't true, but I do remember many shops last time closing off sections, albeit for a very short initial period.

It seems that there was some truth in this, someone posted on a local Facebook page that the local Tesco’s which has two floors has sealed off the upstairs section which has things like clothes & electronics. Meanwhile another branch that has everything on the ground floor has remained open entirely.

This is on a Yahoo page today

https://uk.style.yahoo.com/coronavirus-supermarkets-shut-off-parts-154500641.html

Supermarkets - including Tesco and Sainsbury's - are reportedly blocking off access to parts of their stores following advice from the UK government for the English lockdown.
.....
Shoppers have reported being unable to get access to baby clothes and other items due to the new restrictions.
But Tesco is advising that staff could help people get what they want if they ask.
A Tesco spokesperson said: "In line with new government guidance in England which requires the closure of separate floors selling non-food items, we have closed the Clothing and General Merchandise departments in our stores that sell these products from a separate mezzanine level."

yet the same article states

"a business selling a significant amount of essential retail may also continue to sell goods typically sold at non-essential retail".

 

[greyman42]

Neither situation is satisfactory. It would simply have been better to allow all shops to remain open, perhaps excluding those places where there's a high incidence of unavoidable inter-personal contact, e.g. hairdressers.

Is there any evidence that hairdressers cause a significant spread of the virus. After all the hairdresser has a mask on, the customer has a mask on, so if masks are as good as some make out then the risk is negligible.

 

[yorkie]

With schools, children of parents with Covid can catch a very mid version of it, pass it on to other children, who in turn pass it on to their own parents. This is the drawback not with education itself but with the schools being open again.

There have been surprisingly few instances in schools. Based on what I've seen/heard at my local school, all the kids I know of who tested positive all likely got it from other settings (not from school) and of the kids who were then isolating as a result, I'm not aware of any cases of those kids going on to be infected (or, if they did get infected, they were all asymptomatic, which is quite possible). And of all the kids who I've seen be quite ill, they had other viruses.

Likewise, any staff who got it mostly seem to have been infected outside school, and were either asyptomatic or had mild symptoms, and the staff who have been most ill appear to have had other viruses.

I'm not sure if you are arguing for schools to remain open, or to close, but anyone who thinks schools should close is either overestimating the severity of the virus or the rate of transmissions in schools, or is underestimating the huge role schools play in maintaining wellbeing; it's not just about teaching & learning. The effectiveness of teaching & learning is far greater in school than online.

Ironically, the only "essential" clothing for the time being is masks or other face coverings.

So shoes aren't essential then? Did you see my earlier post on this subject?

 

[Mojo]

Is there any evidence that hairdressers cause a significant spread of the virus. After all the hairdresser has a mask on, the customer has a mask on, so if masks are as good as some make out then the risk is negligible.

I’ve found near me only a very small number of barber shops mandate muzzles. My partner walked into one of our regular ones and was instructed by the owner to take it off.

Even the most obsessive barbers around here make you take it off for hair washing and also remove it for you when trimming around the ears.

 

[C J Snarzell]

Regarding the issue at Tesco's I believe they have closed off the areas selling non essential items at quite a few of their large stores by blocking the escalators that lead up to the clothing, audio and electrical departments.

One of the larger Tesco's near me has blocked off the area that sells the birthday cards too. It seems odd that you can't purchase birthday cards but they allow access to the seasonal aisle which sells Christmas cards and other non essential festive items like decorations!

CJ

 

[Mag_seven]

It seems odd that you can't purchase birthday cards but they allow access to the seasonal aisle which sells Christmas cards and other non essential festive items like decorations!

Didn't you know - there is a SAGE paper somewhere that says you are 50 times more likely to catch a bad dose of COVID if you are purchasing birthday cards as opposed to Christmas cards.

 

[big_rig]

My honest observation from a lovely weekend pottering round London, some parks, and a trip out of town (well, to outer London!) is that this ‘lockdown’ is a waste of time and if the Govt had any brains they’d call it off. Everywhere I’ve been (and from what I can tell from friends social media) was packed full of people having a lovely time in (relatively) good weather, busier than I can remember for a long time, with little to no ‘social distancing’ observed. The public are by and large not cowering away inside, desperately staying home to save lives and slow the spread, but instead just living life. Open the shops and gyms again. If hundreds of deaths a day and tens of thousands of cases actually mattered to people anymore the streets and fields wouldn’t have been heaving. People are voting with their feet - I can’t believe the polling which says 80% of people or whatever want a hard lockdown because it certainly wasn’t just the hardy 20% out in the sun!

 

[greyman42]

I’ve found near me only a very small number of barber shops mandate muzzles. My partner walked into one of our regular ones and was instructed by the owner to take it off.

Even the most obsessive barbers around here make you take it off for hair washing and also remove it for you when trimming around the ears.

Perhaps it varies from area to area. I live in York and all the barbers that i see insist on mask wearing.

 

[island]

Not sure if this is best here, or in the Supermarkets thread, but somehow missed this article from The Grocer yesterday

English supermarkets told to cordon off areas of non-essential goods

The Grocer understands the UK government has told retailers it will not go as far as the Welsh ban

www.thegrocer.co.uk

Hopefully this isn't true, but I do remember many shops last time closing off sections, albeit for a very short initial period.

This seems to me like a tortured overinterpretation of guidance and is in no way required by law. The law (SI2020/1200) specifies the types of shops which may open and, other than in-store cafés and restaurants, makes no requirement that parts of the store must close.

 

[35B]

This seems to me like a tortured overinterpretation of guidance and is in no way required by law. The law (SI2020/1200) specifies the types of shops which may open and, other than in-store cafés and restaurants, makes no requirement that parts of the store must close.

I had to read it hard to be sure, and wasn't sure if at my local Asda, the George section (segregated, on a mezzanine floor), would have to close. As I avoid Asda whenever possible, I'm not planning to check!

 

[bramling]

My honest observation from a lovely weekend pottering round London, some parks, and a trip out of town is that this ‘lockdown’ is a waste of time and if the Govt had any brains they’d call it off. Everywhere I’ve been (and from what I can tell from friends social media) was packed full of people having a lovely time in (relatively) good weather, busier than I can remember for a long time, with little to no ‘social distancing’ observed. The public are by and large not cowering away inside, desperately staying home to save lives and slow the spread, but instead just living life. Open the shops and gyms again. If hundreds of deaths a day and tens of thousands of cases actually mattered to people anymore the streets and fields wouldn’t have been heaving. People are voting with their feet - I can’t believe the polling which says 80% of people or whatever want a hard lockdown because it certainly wasn’t just the hardy 20% out in the sun!

I think they should call it off, it’s pointless, and at the same time damaging.

The problem is that there’s no doubt a cohort of people who like the idea of more freeby leisure time, who are the very sorts who on the one hand will claim it’s too dangerous to go to work and how essential restrictions and lockdown are, but meanwhile are still happy to be out and out to the maximum extent possible, including in crowded places.

My heart goes out to those people who have spent years building up successful and enriching businesses, which have been completely trashed this year. I’m particularly thinking of things like attractions, hotels and the like. There’s not even an end in sight to the uncertainty.

 

[sjpowermac]

As a related aside, many "key workers" are mightily sick of the fact that they're at work and have been all year without ceremony, whilst being in the workplace seems to be such a problem for others.

Being at work is absolutely not a problem for the overwhelming majority of teachers.

As an aside, I suspect that the railway unions would be extremely vocal if their members were required to be in confined and poorly ventilated spaces with groups of 30 people all day long.

In addition, many teachers are currently doubling up on work in that they are doing their normal job plus setting up online learning for students who are self isolating. Again, I’d be very interested to hear what ASLEF would have to say if train drivers were suddenly given additional tasks to do.

For what it’s worth, I don’t believe that schools are dangerous places to be, but I think your digs are very wide of the mark, especially given your very privileged position in a highly unionised industry.

 

[bramling]

Being at work is absolutely not a problem for the overwhelming majority of teachers.

As an aside, I suspect that the railway unions would be extremely vocal if their members were required to be in confined and poorly ventilated spaces with groups of 30 people all day long.

In addition, many teachers are currently doubling up on work in that they are doing their normal job plus setting up online learning for students who are self isolating. Again, I’d be very interested to hear what ASLEF would have to say if train drivers were suddenly given additional tasks to do.

For what it’s worth, I don’t believe that schools are dangerous places to be, but I think your digs are very wide of the mark, especially given your very privileged position in a highly unionised industry.

I wasn’t referring to any vocation specifically, more the sort who post on Facebook about how it’s far too dangerous for them to go to work, yet in the next post are boasting for example about how many times they took advantage of EOTHO.

 

[317 forever]

So shoes aren't essential then? Did you see my earlier post on this subject?

Yes I did actually. What I was referring to was the government mandating masks but closing other clothes & shoe shops.

 

[sjpowermac]

I wasn’t referring to any vocation specifically, more the sort who post on Facebook about how it’s far too dangerous for them to go to work, yet in the next post are boasting for example about how many times they took advantage of EOTHO.

Whilst I do use social media for railway Gen, I consider that in general it is destroying the fabric of society and avoid it like the plague.

I understand better though where you are coming from, so thank you for your reply.

 

[C J Snarzell]

In some respects I do agree with supermarkets banning sales of clothing and electronic goods.

During the first lockdown - one of the neighbours was actually visiting a different supermarket each day to simply shop for clothes, household items (for DIY) or pick up DVDs, books and the latest gadgets that caught her eye.

She openly admitted to me - she was just doing it out of boredom, rather than being stuck at home all day with nowhere else open.

It did go against the grain of what the government imposed in doing essential shopping only. It seems that the supermarkets have got wise to it this second time round.

The only issue I have is when people want that new TV, or that latest DVD, or maybe a new pair of shoes - which place are they likely to go to now?

A certain Internet company beginning with the letter 'A' which must be making millions at this moment in time.

CJ

 

[DB]

It seems that the supermarkets have got wise to it this second time round.

'Got wise' to the fact that people might want to buy stuff which is available for sale? Well, what a surprising thing to find - can't have that can we! They should just sit at home for a month like obedient little subjects!

In reality, they'll just go to a garden centre or hardware store instead if they are bored.

 

[Energy]

or that latest DVD

I know this is just an example but I don't see many people using DVDs now, let alone buying new ones.

The only issue I have is when people want that new TV,

There are many online stores. E.g, Argos, John Lewis, Currys, AO not just Amazon.

 

[Darandio]

A certain Internet company beginning with the letter 'A' which must be making millions at this moment in time.

They were making billions before this ever happened, they were huge long before this came about.

 

[DB]

They were making billions before this ever happened, they were huge long before this came about.

And will be even more huge when we have lockdown policies which will drive even more business their way!

 

[bramling]

'Got wise' to the fact that people might want to buy stuff which is available for sale? Well, what a surprising thing to find - can't have that can we! They should just sit at home for a month like obedient little subjects!

In reality, they'll just go to a garden centre or hardware store instead if they are bored.

This is the thing, this time round the colder and damper weather means that sitting in parks sunbathing just isn’t such an attractive proposition. There doesn’t seem to have been such a big thing for cycling either, though there were a few Boris bikes about on Saturday when the sun came out.

As you say, people aren’t just going to sit indoors looking at four walls. Many people just don’t have indoor pastimes, and even for things like DIY one can’t do this without supplies - it was frustrating during the last lockdown that garden centres were closed as this stopped me doing quite a bit, and ironically somewhat counter-productively left me with a backlog of work to do afterwards. Add to this that people will be starting to think about Christmas shopping.

Likewise people who have been at work are moaning that their whole existence is a continuous revolving door of work-sleep-work-sleep, with little quality leisure time to unwind.

I find this oppressive having a fairly large house and a long garden. I certainly wouldn’t want to be in a flat looking at four walls. It was one thing back in March when we had no idea what we were dealing with, however the facts are quite clear that for most of the population this is not a massive risk.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2020 ==

They were making billions before this ever happened, they were huge long before this came about.

It must be a gift for them this, as long as their logistics doesn’t get overwhelmed - which to be fair I’ve made a few purchases recently and the items have unfailingly come pretty quickly.

The difficulty comes when everywhere else has gone bust, we don’t want to get to that position.

 

[Hadders]

It seems that there was some truth in this, someone posted on a local Facebook page that the local Tesco’s which has two floors has sealed off the upstairs section which has things like clothes & electronics. Meanwhile another branch that has everything on the ground floor has remained open entirely.

There has been mixed messages from Government about what is and isn't allowed. It seems that the Government would like retailers who have separate mezzanine floors for non-essential goods to close them off. Where there isn't a distinct area then you can sell the whole range.

As ever the 'guidance' from Government was issued very late, and confusing and inconsistent with what the law requires.. As I understand it Tesco have closed off separate mezzanine floors that sell only non essential goods, Asda and Sainsbury's haven't.

I passed a large Marks and Spencer store when I was out earlier today and was it was open. Where they have a food hall the rest of the shop is open although they have closed off separate floors, unless they are needed to access the food hall.

 

[initiation]

if the Govt had any brains they’d call it off.

Unfortunately there are 2 reasons why this will never happen.

1. It will be an acknowledgement they jumped too soon last weekend. They lost political capital getting it approved and it won't be the image they want.

2. Its a win win situation for the government. If deaths continue to stabilised or decrease they can claim the lockdown worked. If they increase they can pin the blame on those breaking the rules.

It will be interesting to guess what the rules will look light after the 2nd Dec.

 

[sheff1]

I’ve found near me only a very small number of barber shops mandate muzzles. My partner walked into one of our regular ones and was instructed by the owner to take it off.

Even the most obsessive barbers around here make you take it off for hair washing and also remove it for you when trimming around the ears.

Same here. Might be different with hairdressers, but proper barbers cannot do what they are there to do if someone is wearing a face covering - trimming the beard of someone in a face covering would be an interesting thing to watch !

 

[Chester1]

It will be interesting to guess what the rules will look light after the 2nd Dec.

I reckon a mixture of tier 2 and 3 (nowhere in tier 1). Some some sort of amendment to allow close family members and partners to meet together in homes over Christmas period to avoid tens of millions of people breaking the law.

 

[duncanp]

I reckon a mixture of tier 2 and 3 (nowhere in tier 1). Some some sort of amendment to allow close family members and partners to meet together in homes over Christmas period to avoid tens of millions of people breaking the law.

It will probably be an amended Tier 2, with non essential shops and hospitality allowed to re-open, and some amendments to the rules about different households meeting in private homes and indoor settings.

 

[C J Snarzell]

One or two people I've spoke to this weekend seem to feel this lockdown will continue beyond the 2nd December, regardless of Christmas. Yesterday's antics in Central Manchester are certainly not going to help to get the virus cases down.

CJ

 

[Mojo]

One or two people I've spoke to this weekend seem to feel this lockdown will continue beyond the 2nd December, regardless of Christmas. Yesterday's antics in Central Manchester are certainly not going to help to get the virus cases down.

CJ

What happened in Manchester? Not seen anything about it in the news.

 

[221129]

What happened in Manchester? Not seen anything about it in the news.

Large protest against the restrictions I believe.