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Future of HS2 2b (Eastern Leg deprioritised)

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Grimsby town

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The problem with cancelling the eastern leg is that Leeds to Goldthorpe is planned to be used by NPR for Sheffield to Leeds services. The business case for improved Sheffield to Leeds services and associated new platform capacity at both Leeds and Sheffield is reduced if London and Birmingham services are not part of the equation.

People are saying that only Sheffield loses out but I think that oversimplifies the benefits of the Eastern leg to just time benefits. Additional capacity is desperately needed between Doncaster / Sheffield and Leeds for extra stopping services. Currently both lines only have 1 service per hour which, for services that should be metro frequencies, is pretty shocking.
 
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jfowkes

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There's a through train every hour from Nottingham to Leeds, taking around 2hr, and a bit less from Derby.

It's ridiculously slow for the distances involved.

Compared to Nottingham-London which is about the same time but over twice the distance.
 

edwin_m

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I suspect East Midlands Hub will attract *alot* of suppressed demand of people who find accessing Nottingham and Derby stations difficult, due to needing to get in the respective city centres.
The experience of East Midlands Parkway suggests otherwise.
 

Purple Orange

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Apologies, excepting the Tokaido Shinkansen 13 does appear to be on the top end, but it is commonly achieved abroad.
And HS2 is in major trouble if this section cannot reach 13 trains per hour, because then Old Oak is completely stuffed?

EDIT:

Hypotheticalyl we would be looking at:
4 trains per hour Liverpool-Leeds via Manchester (this seems unnecessarily high but there we go)
2 trains per hour Birmingham-Leeds via Manchester
~4-5 trains per hour London-Leeds via Manchester.

I make that more like 10-11 trains per hour, not 13 anyway.

We can’t have that frequency due to Leeds-Manchester being capped at 6 tph and Manchester-Liverpool at 4 tph.
 

edwin_m

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It's ridiculously slow for the distances involved.

Compared to Nottingham-London which is about the same time but over twice the distance.
Going via Toton you've probably wasted getting on for half an hour getting no closer to Leeds.
 

jfowkes

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Going via Toton you've probably wasted getting on for half an hour getting no closer to Leeds.

Half an hour to get to Toton, half an hour to Leeds, that's still an hour less than current timings. That's a massive change. Hopefully the frequency will be higher too.
 

Jozhua

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Getting rid of the Eastern leg is a grave error. The East Midlands has very poor transport coverage, much of this is because the lines that do exist are very much focused around moving the London and XC services through. Places like Belper & Duffield could be connected to Chesterfield/Sheffield, but the route is too busy with MML and XC services to do so. The same could be said of much around Nottingham and Leicester too.

People always forget about the connections to Birmingham as well. XC is too overcrowded and journey times are lacking. Also, in other threads we have been talking about the bad connections between the North West and East Midlands. Part of the solution to this was going to be able to catch the train down from Manchester, change at Birmingham and still save a good 30-45 minutes on the current journey times.

HS2's biggest value add is in phase 2b, with phase 2a running in close second.

Yet again the East Midlands gets the sh!tty end of the stick.
Absolutely.
Have you ever been to Long Eaton?
Long Eaton is a bit of a car-ridden nightmare, but it's not a bad place. It's got a lot of very nice historical terraces, some decent parks, schools and a nice canal side. The proposed development near HS2 will help tie the town together a bit more cohesively.
 

Kettledrum

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The experience of East Midlands Parkway suggests otherwise.
Let's be fair though, East Midlands Parkway is surrounded by fields, with no other public transport links, and is not particularly easy to reach by car either. It does not have particularly good trains or train times to London either.

East Midlands Hub HS2 station should avoid all these shortcomings.
 

Ianno87

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The experience of East Midlands Parkway suggests otherwise.

Parkway is in fields, next to a power station and not even directly road connected to its nearest population.

East Midlands Hub is pretty much "Long Eaton & Sandiacre Interchange", and off the A52 and the Nottingham tram.
 

Robertj21a

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Leicester - East Midlands Hub (change) - HS2 - Leeds will help immensely.

I suspect East Midlands Hub will attract *alot* of suppressed demand of people who find accessing Nottingham and Derby stations difficult, due to needing to get in the respective city centres.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



That's not actually a relevant question.

Whether or not there are "many" other such lines doesn't demonstrate anything about what HS2's capability can achieve. It's still being designed, so the relevant capability can be provided.

Is there enough demand from Leicester to Leeds that couldn't be met by simply electrifying the MML ? Can't see that HS2 is of much real use.
 

Ianno87

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Is there enough demand from Leicester to Leeds that couldn't be met by simply electrifying the MML ? Can't see that HS2 is of much real use.

Well, you'd never build the Eastern Leg solely for Leicester-Leeds benefits.

But if the Eastern Leg is justified for other reasons, Leicester-Leeds quite clearly gets improved as a consequence.
 

jfowkes

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The Eastern Leg benefits are much more diffuse than the Birmingham-London section. No single city to city journey alone is "worth it". The collective benefits to the region are worth it.
 
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HSTEd

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We can’t have that frequency due to Leeds-Manchester being capped at 6 tph and Manchester-Liverpool at 4 tph.

We can't with the current infrastructure, however with electrification et al that is not necessarily true forever.
 

Purple Orange

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We can't with the current infrastructure, however with electrification et al that is not necessarily true forever.

That’s with NPR. The latest plans from HS2 calls for a 6-platform station at Piccadilly, with a junction towards Leeds and a junction towards Liverpool. It states that the addition of 2 platforms at Piccadilly station will facilitate 4 tph to Liverpool and 6 tph to Leeds, in addition to the London & Birmingham terminating services that can be facilitated with the other 4 platforms.

In essence, if the eastern leg is not built then we’ve essentially got a maximum of 6 services from Leeds to Manchester then onwards to absorb the capacity tha the eastern leg would have provided.
 

Ianno87

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The Eastern Leg benefits are much more diffuse than the Birmingham-London section. Non single city to city journey alone is "worth it". The collective benefits to the region are worth it.

That's a good way of putting it.

I'd see the Eastern Leg being akin to the Jubilee Line Extension - it will create demand for journeys that don't currently happen due to making them possible easily for the first time? Jump on a train at East Midlands Hub and you'll be in Birmingham City Centre 20 minutes later. A quick journey by train that is unthinkable today.
 

HSTEd

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That’s with NPR. The latest plans from HS2 calls for a 6-platform station at Piccadilly, with a junction towards Leeds and a junction towards Liverpool. It states that the addition of 2 platforms at Piccadilly station will facilitate 4 tph to Liverpool and 6 tph to Leeds, in addition to the London & Birmingham terminating services that can be facilitated with the other 4 platforms.

But there would be no London and Birmingham terminating services in this plan?
All trains would reverse back out, there would be no trains sitting on turnarounds in Manchester station.


EDIT:

Assume:

4tph Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds
2tph Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds
5tph London-Manchester-Leeds

11tph.

Which means we have 22 trains per hour coming nito the station and 22 leaving as each train comes into Manchester twice.

We assume six platforms, with one knocked out due to a failed train etc.
That's 22/5 - 4.4 trains per platform per hour in the one platform out situation.

Platform cycle time of 13.6 minutes, with a platform out, 16.4 minutes without a platform out.

It's on the high side but I don't think its an absurd reoccupation rate given we have a bespoke, brand new station, with ATO in use and very high performance rolling stock.
The traffic density is also high enough we could embrace drivers swapping trains if necessary to improve throughput.

Additionally the cost of a seventh or eighth platform at Picadilly would be a tiny fraction of the cost of the eastern branch.

EDIT:

The obvious example is Fenchurch Street with 20 reversing trains per hour on 4 platforms in peak time.
It seems that 22 over 6 platforms gives significant recovery margin.
 
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Purple Orange

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But there would be no London and Birmingham terminating services in this plan?
All trains would reverse back out, there would be no trains sitting on turnarounds in Manchester station.


EDIT:

Assume:

4tph Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds
2tph Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds
5tph London-Manchester-Leeds

11tph.

Which means we have 22 trains per hour coming nito the station and 22 leaving as each train comes into Manchester twice.

We assume six platforms, with one knocked out due to a failed train etc.
That's 22/5 - 4.4 trains per platform per hour in the one platform out situation.

Platform cycle time of 13.6 minutes, with a platform out, 16.4 minutes without a platform out.

It's on the high side but I don't think its an absurd reoccupation rate given we have a bespoke, brand new station, with ATO in use and very high performance rolling stock.
The traffic density is also high enough we could embrace drivers swapping trains if necessary to improve throughput.

Additionally the cost of a seventh or eighth platform at Picadilly would be a tiny fraction of the cost of the eastern branch.

EDIT:

The obvious example is Fenchurch Street with 20 reversing trains per hour on 4 platforms in peak time.
It seems that 22 over 6 platforms gives significant recovery margin.

That doesn’t work, because there will only be 6 tph crossing the Pennines, not 11. No way will there be additional platforms at Piccadilly, as the GMCA want as much land as possible for development - we have to ground this in an element of realism here.

There are a couple of assumption missing from your analysis. HS2 assume that 1 platform manages 1.5 tph if they are terminating. Therefore under the original plans, Piccadilly could manage 6 tph, giving us 3 London and 2 Birmingham trains each hour with a spare path leftover. Moving forward to the revised plans, there are 6 platforms, meaning that if the original 4 platforms are to manage the London & Birmingham terminators, then the other two must deal with 10 tph reversing, equating to 1 train every 12 minutes on both platforms.

It might be that Birmingham trains simply become through services to Leeds, meaning that the London terminators only need 2 platforms of the 6, leaving 4 left over for through (reversing) services. That means that IF the eastern branch is not built, we could have the following feeding in to Piccadilly:
  • 3 x 400m London terminating
  • 2 x 200m Birmingham-Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds (Newcastle 1 tph)
  • 2 x 200m Liverpool-Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds (Newcastle 1 tph)
  • 2 x 200m Liverpool-Manchester
  • 2 x 200m London-Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-Newcastle
It might mean that Leeds & Newcastle services to London & Birmingham are no faster than they are today.
 

edwin_m

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Let's be fair though, East Midlands Parkway is surrounded by fields, with no other public transport links, and is not particularly easy to reach by car either. It does not have particularly good trains or train times to London either.

East Midlands Hub HS2 station should avoid all these shortcomings.
Parkway is in fields, next to a power station and not even directly road connected to its nearest population.

East Midlands Hub is pretty much "Long Eaton & Sandiacre Interchange", and off the A52 and the Nottingham tram.
Parkway is a mile or so from the M1 along a dual carriageway just as Toton will be. Very easy to reach by car but still not used much. If it was more used it would have better train times and perhaps even some public transport links. And incidentally the power station closes in a few years creating a brownfield development opportunity.

East Midlands Hub is sort of surrounded by suburban development but currently also has no bus service worth mentioning and also no passenger train service whatever that could provide connections to anywhere. So all that will have to be set up from scratch, probably at considerable public expense, if access to it isn't going to be restricted to those with a car or able to afford a taxi.

My alternative idea would truncate the eastern leg on the Birmingham-Derby line and build something resembling the northern part to improve speed and capacity between Sheffield and Leeds for NPR. Cross Country would still run via Derby and Sheffield but benefit from both new sections, and London-Sheffield via Derby would still be quicker than today. Improvements to the Stenson-Trent line would allow a London-Nottingham service using some of the paths no longer needed south of Birmingham.
 
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HSTEd

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That doesn’t work, because there will only be 6 tph crossing the Pennines, not 11. No way will there be additional platforms at Piccadilly, as the GMCA want as much land as possible for development - we have to ground this in an element of realism here.

Why does there have to be only six trains per hour crossing the pennines forever?
There are six now, but once electrification allows a dramatic acceleration of stopping trains, it may be possible to unlock additional paths, especially with the extra track that is going in.

Even a fraction of the cost of the eastern block of HS2 buys a lot in terms of increasing capacity on this route, assuming journey time is not the ultimate objective above all else.

If NPR comes in and really builds its via Bradford route, all limitations dissapear entirely.
 
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jfowkes

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East Midlands Hub is sort of surrounded by suburban development but currently also has no bus service worth mentioning and also no passenger train service whatever that could provide connections to anywhere. So all that will have to be set up from scratch, probably at considerable public expense, if access to it isn't going to be restricted to those with a car or able to afford a taxi.

While I support the full build-out of HS2, I do worry that the hub will draw in existing train paths, extending journey times for a lot of people taking local journeys.

All in all though, serving both Nottingham and Derby was always going to have to be a compromise single station in the middle, because any other solution would have been very, very expensive or forced high-speed trains onto the existing network - neither of which would be acceptable.
 

Purple Orange

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Why does there have to be only six trains per hour crossing the pennines forever?
There are six now, but once electrification allows a dramatic acceleration of stopping trains, it may be possible to unlock additional paths, especially with the extra track that is going in.

Not without a new dedicated line, which will be decades away. I’d bet the 2050s.
 

Killingworth

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As far as I can tell HS2 will not help me much or at all going from Sheffield to Manchester, Hull, Liverpool, Newcastle or Bristol. Eventually it might help going to Birmingham and Leeds, but that looks doubtful. Meanwhile electrification of the MML up to Leeds is long overdue, plus the XC route from York to Bristol and linking Hull to Doncaster and Sheffield.
 

LittleAH

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As far as I can tell HS2 will not help me much or at all going from Sheffield to Manchester, Hull, Liverpool, Newcastle or Bristol. Eventually it might help going to Birmingham and Leeds, but that looks doubtful. Meanwhile electrification of the MML up to Leeds is long overdue, plus the XC route from York to Bristol and linking Hull to Doncaster and Sheffield.

A very good point. The proposed service patterns really don't think to use Sheffield as an intermediate stop on either London to Newcastle services or Birmingham to Newcastle services which seems very short sighted.
 

Ianno87

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A very good point. The proposed service patterns really don't think to use Sheffield as an intermediate stop on either London to Newcastle services or Birmingham to Newcastle services which seems very short sighted.

Would've been much easier with the original route proposal serving Meadowhall. But with Sheffield City Council pushing for (and getting) the city centre instead, Sheffield is forever going to be on a Northampton-esque loop bypassed by the main line (that will be much much faster)
 

NotATrainspott

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It's all a complete mess on the eastern side of the Pennines. The existing infrastructure follows the geography, but that geography really doesn't help the idea of economic integration between the regions. Going against geography is clearly possible, but it'll come at a fairly high cost. That cost will probably be too high for even the loosened BCR calculations the politicians seem keen on for the NPR project.

Part of the mistake seems to be this idea that NPR needs to be a new and separate rail service, like HS2. I don't think that is realistic for regional services in the north. NPR really just needs to be a massively enhanced TransPennine Express network. It can't be expected to be all things to all people, as any new infrastructure would be better targeted at doing one thing well rather than a lot of things poorly. The sort of infrastructure you want to run a fast service to London is not the same as the sort of infrastructure you want to run a cross-Pennine or inter-regional service within the North. With the spread of population and economic activity across the region (even if Leeds and Sheffield city centre might be the strongest, there will still be massive demand for park and ride railheads) I think the end solution will balance more towards the NPR idea than HS2.

Probably the most transformational thing NPR could concentrate on is fast entrances and exits from city centre stations. 200m classic-compatible units seem to be a fairly reasonable model to serve most urban regions for their London links. None of the individual places east of the Pennines is likely going to be able to fill a 400m unit, unlike Manchester (+Airport) or Birmingham (+Airport). Focussing on these capacity-constrained sections may well mean it's possible to make use of existing routes which serve existing railheads. It's entirely possible to build small sections of bypass track specced for 100-140mph, joining and leaving the existing lines where appropriate.

Looking at a map now, I'm thinking whether it's best to send Phase 2b to Doncaster and then use the fairly high quality (and for some, only recently built) section of the ECML between there and York. If more capacity is required on this section, that could be done by adding another pair of tracks alongside. The alignment could support higher speeds on new tracks with modern structures, OHLE and in-cab signalling, and is pretty close to the route as the crow flies. That could be built as a separate project if and when the time comes, without requiring a fundamental restructuring of the route network.

The money saved would be used instead to upgrade the route north of Chesterfield, through Sheffield and across to Doncaster. That would mean a good quality express route all the way from York through the core urban areas and interchanges of South Yorkshire. This would be available and useful for 100mph express regional services as well as specific NPR and HS2 classic-compatible services. A similar set of upgrades, probably involving reasonable sections of new line bypasses, would link this Sheffield-Doncaster axis to Leeds via the existing Wakefield railhead (HS2 services to Leeds would run straight onto this rather than going via Sheffield or Doncaster). Probably most important would be a new joint approach to Leeds for express trains from Wakefield and Huddersfield, allowing the existing route to be metro-ified.

I think it would be really quite hard to manage a programme like that as a single project like HS2. It would mean a series of individual but fairly major interventions. The project split point with HS2 would probably have to be the Chesterfield and Doncaster connections to the NR network plus a spur to be extended towards West Yorkshire. After that, it'd be up to whatever transport body is best placed to design a new network for the north of England. It'd be a mess compared to the original, simple plans for Phase 2 but it'd be much more reflective of the real complexity of the area's transport needs.
 

Purple Orange

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It's all a complete mess on the eastern side of the Pennines. The existing infrastructure follows the geography, but that geography really doesn't help the idea of economic integration between the regions. Going against geography is clearly possible, but it'll come at a fairly high cost. That cost will probably be too high for even the loosened BCR calculations the politicians seem keen on for the NPR project.

Part of the mistake seems to be this idea that NPR needs to be a new and separate rail service, like HS2. I don't think that is realistic for regional services in the north. NPR really just needs to be a massively enhanced TransPennine Express network. It can't be expected to be all things to all people, as any new infrastructure would be better targeted at doing one thing well rather than a lot of things poorly. The sort of infrastructure you want to run a fast service to London is not the same as the sort of infrastructure you want to run a cross-Pennine or inter-regional service within the North. With the spread of population and economic activity across the region (even if Leeds and Sheffield city centre might be the strongest, there will still be massive demand for park and ride railheads) I think the end solution will balance more towards the NPR idea than HS2.

Probably the most transformational thing NPR could concentrate on is fast entrances and exits from city centre stations. 200m classic-compatible units seem to be a fairly reasonable model to serve most urban regions for their London links. None of the individual places east of the Pennines is likely going to be able to fill a 400m unit, unlike Manchester (+Airport) or Birmingham (+Airport). Focussing on these capacity-constrained sections may well mean it's possible to make use of existing routes which serve existing railheads. It's entirely possible to build small sections of bypass track specced for 100-140mph, joining and leaving the existing lines where appropriate.

Looking at a map now, I'm thinking whether it's best to send Phase 2b to Doncaster and then use the fairly high quality (and for some, only recently built) section of the ECML between there and York. If more capacity is required on this section, that could be done by adding another pair of tracks alongside. The alignment could support higher speeds on new tracks with modern structures, OHLE and in-cab signalling, and is pretty close to the route as the crow flies. That could be built as a separate project if and when the time comes, without requiring a fundamental restructuring of the route network.

The money saved would be used instead to upgrade the route north of Chesterfield, through Sheffield and across to Doncaster. That would mean a good quality express route all the way from York through the core urban areas and interchanges of South Yorkshire. This would be available and useful for 100mph express regional services as well as specific NPR and HS2 classic-compatible services. A similar set of upgrades, probably involving reasonable sections of new line bypasses, would link this Sheffield-Doncaster axis to Leeds via the existing Wakefield railhead (HS2 services to Leeds would run straight onto this rather than going via Sheffield or Doncaster). Probably most important would be a new joint approach to Leeds for express trains from Wakefield and Huddersfield, allowing the existing route to be metro-ified.

I think it would be really quite hard to manage a programme like that as a single project like HS2. It would mean a series of individual but fairly major interventions. The project split point with HS2 would probably have to be the Chesterfield and Doncaster connections to the NR network plus a spur to be extended towards West Yorkshire. After that, it'd be up to whatever transport body is best placed to design a new network for the north of England. It'd be a mess compared to the original, simple plans for Phase 2 but it'd be much more reflective of the real complexity of the area's transport needs.

Your point about an enhanced TPE network is key in my opinion. It needs high frequency, high capacity trains (200m is plenty and a big increase on a TPE 802). Who would complain if the planned 6 NPR trains between Manchester & Leeds were the equivalent of a 7-car 802 (which would a 182m train)? In fact what if all non-London services on HS2 & NPR was equivalent of a 7-car 802? That would be a huge increase in capacity vs today’s offerings from XC and TPE.

However that means the fantasy idea of Leeds-London services would certainly have no chance of being chance of being served via Manchester.

Whenever the integrated rail report is published, I’d bet that it recommends building the eastern branch in phases, so as to enable start Leeds-London as soon as the first phase of the eastern branch is built and relieve the ECML and MML of Leeds, Newcastle & Sheffield services. I’d also guess that it recommends electrifying the north Trans Pennine route and the only new route will be from the Liverpool HS2 junction towards the existing line in to Lime Street. No new station in Liverpool, but Leeds will still get Water Lane.
 

NotATrainspott

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Your point about an enhanced TPE network is key in my opinion. It needs high frequency, high capacity trains (200m is plenty and a big increase on a TPE 802). Who would complain if the planned 6 NPR trains between Manchester & Leeds were the equivalent of a 7-car 802 (which would a 182m train)? In fact what if all non-London services on HS2 & NPR was equivalent of a 7-car 802? That would be a huge increase in capacity vs today’s offerings from XC and TPE.

However that means the fantasy idea of Leeds-London services would certainly have no chance of being chance of being served via Manchester.

Whenever the integrated rail report is published, I’d bet that it recommends building the eastern branch in phases, so as to enable start Leeds-London as soon as the first phase of the eastern branch is built and relieve the ECML and MML of Leeds, Newcastle & Sheffield services. I’d also guess that it recommends electrifying the north Trans Pennine route and the only new route will be from the Liverpool HS2 junction towards the existing line in to Lime Street. No new station in Liverpool, but Leeds will still get Water Lane.

I think the ideal train for NPR is a 200m classic-compatible set very similar to that planned for HS2 but limited to 230km/h, or maybe 249km/h. The idea would be to keep the train cost low and so justify using it on a wider range of services which may be limited to 160-200km/h in places. You want to be able to run a service like York to Leicester, making use of the new tracks which are available but also stopping at all major stations along the route. The ECML and GWML demonstrate pretty well that on a good alignment, there's not much wrong with 200km/h running. The major journey time reductions only really arise when you're doing hundreds of kilometres at higher speeds. This is ideal for Phase 1, 2a and the western branch in general because there's demand for services to run non-stop to Manchester and Scotland.

In this model I've described, I'm not sure if there is much of a place for a new 400m terminus station in Leeds. Pretty much the only service which makes sense going into a Leeds terminus are those from London.
 

Class 170101

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I think the ideal train for NPR is a 200m classic-compatible set very similar to that planned for HS2 but limited to 230km/h, or maybe 249km/h. The idea would be to keep the train cost low and so justify using it on a wider range of services which may be limited to 160-200km/h in places. You want to be able to run a service like York to Leicester, making use of the new tracks which are available but also stopping at all major stations along the route. The ECML and GWML demonstrate pretty well that on a good alignment, there's not much wrong with 200km/h running. The major journey time reductions only really arise when you're doing hundreds of kilometres at higher speeds. This is ideal for Phase 1, 2a and the western branch in general because there's demand for services to run non-stop to Manchester and Scotland.

In this model I've described, I'm not sure if there is much of a place for a new 400m terminus station in Leeds. Pretty much the only service which makes sense going into a Leeds terminus are those from London.

The only thing I would say is that the train design that would be used for HS2 needs to be suitable for the NPR and classic destinations away from HS2 to keep costs down. Having separate design for NPR would be more expensive than using the same one as per HS2.

Think of Class 800 (and variants) for Current Intercity and Class 170s where many were built and used widely over the GB network due to their design fitting a wide selection of the network.
 

LittleAH

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I think the ideal train for NPR is a 200m classic-compatible set very similar to that planned for HS2 but limited to 230km/h, or maybe 249km/h. The idea would be to keep the train cost low and so justify using it on a wider range of services which may be limited to 160-200km/h in places. You want to be able to run a service like York to Leicester, making use of the new tracks which are available but also stopping at all major stations along the route. The ECML and GWML demonstrate pretty well that on a good alignment, there's not much wrong with 200km/h running. The major journey time reductions only really arise when you're doing hundreds of kilometres at higher speeds. This is ideal for Phase 1, 2a and the western branch in general because there's demand for services to run non-stop to Manchester and Scotland.

In this model I've described, I'm not sure if there is much of a place for a new 400m terminus station in Leeds. Pretty much the only service which makes sense going into a Leeds terminus are those from London.

You make an incredibly good point about Leeds station - HS2 website says that the HS2 station at Leeds will be used for NPR, but as it is a terminus station then this would require a reversal for NPR services, as it would at Manchester Piccadilly which seems short sighted. As with Sheffield, Leeds has no proposed direct services Northwards, so the HS2 station would just be used for Birmingham and London services which makes a little bit of a mockery of it being built, although the new platforms would be welcome and free some capacity at Leeds.

Personally, despite that short sightedness on stations and service patterns too, I think the eastern leg of HS2 should be prioritised over NPR at all costs as it delivers the most in terms of HS2. What's the point in only building the western leg, when services from Leeds to London would take the same amount of time via Manchester and not imrpove connectivity to the midlands - it's just extremely stupid but not surprising given the decisions taken on rail infrastructure in the past.

The TransPennine Route Upgrade will allow for 7 car 802's (that can travel at 140mph) to run across the Pennines once completed, which can then use some of the infrastructure that HS2 will deliver, such as Liverpool to Manchester if the Liverpool spur of NPR is built (which it should be). It seems bonkers spending tens of billions of pounds for a new line between Manchester and Leeds just to serve Bradford when the current TransPennine route can also be further enhanced, capacity and speed wise with chunks of new railway integrating into the current one (such as a new alignment from west of Huddersfield to Guide Bridge avoiding the speed restrictions that Marsden to Guide Bridge provides and utilising the new platforms at Man Pic being one example).
 
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