WCML Commuter Trains into Liverpool Street

[meepmeep]

I seem to recall an Silverlink Newsletter (I was a commuter/season ticket holder) mentioning the possibility of Northampton Line (as it was then) trains into Liverpool Street.

With the up-coming work at Euston for HS2 I was wondering if this idea could be revived? I know that even if it was technically possible, there is probably no capacity at Liverpool Street, but I wondered if it was technically feasible/possible?

 

[Ianno87]

No capacity on the North London Line or at Liverpool Street.

 

[meepmeep]

No capacity on the North London Line or at Liverpool Street.

Thought not, but you've answered my question as I was wondering if it was technically possible. When Silverlink mentioned it I don't think think the NLL was electrified, so not sure how they'd have done it, unless they'd got diesel units for that service.

Thanks for the info, and it was not utter twaddle as suggested in your sig!

 

[The Planner]

Thought not, but you've answered my question as I was wondering if it was technically possible. When Silverlink mentioned it I don't think think the NLL was electrified, so not sure how they'd have done it, unless they'd got diesel units for that service.

Thanks for the info, and it was not utter twaddle as suggested in your sig!

Its technically possible but unlikely, to be honest there aren't many blocks that require all of Euston to be shut due to HS2. Most of the work is on the down side so high platform side blocks will be the norm.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Thought not, but you've answered my question as I was wondering if it was technically possible. When Silverlink mentioned it I don't think think the NLL was electrified, so not sure how they'd have done it, unless they'd got diesel units for that service.

Gospel Oak - Barking wasn't electrified at the time, but the North London Line was, with a mix of OLE and 3rd rail (changeover points being Acton Central, Camden Road, Dalston Kingsland and Hackney Wick, though it's now OLE from Acton Central right through to Stratford).

At that time, a through train from the WCML to Liverpool Street would have left the WCML at Camden Junction and run through Primrose Hill to join the North London at Camden Road, where it would have taken the Number 1 (AC electrified) lines to Dalston Kingsland and then the Graham Road curve (between Dalston Kingsland and Hackney Central) to join the (Slow) Suburban Lines between Hackney Downs and London Fields for the run into Liverpool Street. Running into Kings Cross would also have been an option by using the North London Incline at Camden Road.

 

[edwin_m]

Running into Kings Cross would also have been an option by using the North London Incline at Camden Road.

Isn't that north to west only, requiring a reversal to get into KX? St Pancras Eurostar platforms might also be technically possible but would present obvious difficulties.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Isn't that north to west only, requiring a reversal to get into KX?

Yes. (Or in this scenario, west to north)

 

[CyrusWuff]

Isn't that north to west only, requiring a reversal to get into KX? St Pancras Eurostar platforms might also be technically possible but would present obvious difficulties.

And this is why you shouldn't reply to things at 1am. I know it faces Finsbury Park, but I'd convinced myself it faced the Cross for some reason.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It was considered , briefly , in 1997 as a "how do we protect our turf" idea , - but using existing peak only paths. Not a runner for very many reasons and discounted after some considered thought.

 

[Bald Rick]

but I wondered if it was technically feasible/possible?

Possible in engineering terms yes, but technically possible: no. The timetable doesn’t have the technical capacity.

 

[PeterC]

There are so many curves and connections that could provide interesting services but we would end up with everything running about once or twice and hour.

When the Graham Road Curve was first put in it was clear that it was only done to get permission to demolish Broad Street. The replacement service, one arrival after 9am and and one departure before 5pm wasn't exactly geared to most people's journey to work requirements.

 

[meepmeep]

To a mere novice this is an interesting discussion.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There are so many curves and connections that could provide interesting services but we would end up with everything running about once or twice and hour.

When the Graham Road Curve was first put in it was clear that it was only done to get permission to demolish Broad Street. The replacement service, one arrival after 9am and and one departure before 5pm wasn't exactly geared to most people's journey to work requirements.

I agree , and it was a classic compromise of the day to release acres of land for the City development - and especially the old Liverpool St station. Broad St Passenger and Goods was dead in the water really from when trams . tubes and other forms of traffic came into active use from the 1920's. A different city and different needs. Not that the economy had stood still in the meantime.

The 1997 idea was a bit of lateral thinking - but though just about technically possible , it was probably not a good idea really. This rebirth of the North London and all the other changes were a much greater prize.

 

[cle]

I do remember the odd peak service from Watford Junction to Liverpool Street, and at Queens Park, it was on the metal map boards at the platform as peak hours only. Today it would never be possible with the frequencies (and ELL line swap/builds). Not to mention, pretty damn slow! And short trains taking up paths.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I do remember the odd peak service from Watford Junction to Liverpool Street, and at Queens Park, it was on the metal map boards at the platform as peak hours only. Today it would never be possible with the frequencies (and ELL line swap/builds). Not to mention, pretty damn slow! And short trains taking up paths.

It is well documented - really the last fling of the once Watford - Broad St service (which ran either via Primrose Hill or via the City Loop down to Willesden Low Level) - incredibly slow being all stations and by then virtually no end to end (and not much) or intermediate traffic. I went passenger once and from around Kenton slept to Dalston , it was so soperific. By 198x , most of the population who might have used it , had retired , died , moved away or found a better place to work or a something.

The NLL had then a population turnover of something like 25% a year. Different times.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I’m only interested if it’s 321s!

Let’s have them from Northampton, calling only at Milton Keynes, Bletchley, Leighton Buzzard, Berkhamsted, Hemel, Watford, Bushey, Harrow, Queens Park, Camden Road, Highbury, Bethnal Green (for the riot) and Liverpool Street.